Ot for you history/ Civil War Buffs - Devils Den in the distance

[Roar More]

Antietam wasn't a Union defeat Considered more of a draw but it was the Confederates that fled the field severely battered.

Tactical draw, Confederate strategic defeat. Like I said, the South was not too good on the offensive.

Gettysburg was perhaps the greatest meeting engagement of all time. Neither side planned on fighting there and both armies were sent piecemeal into the fray until the third day. By then the South was too bloodied and the North too numerous.

 

[sluggo72]

My favorite hero of the Civil War... Cooter Brown!!!

Cooter Brown, sometimes given as Cootie Brown, is a name used in metaphors and similes for drunkenness, mostly in the Southern United States. Cooter Brown supposedly lived on the line which divided the North and South during the American Civil War, making him eligible for military draft by either side. He had family on both sides of the line, so he did not want to fight in the war. He decided to get drunk and stay drunk for the duration of the war so that he would be seen as useless for military purposes and would not be drafted. Ever since, colloquial and proverbial ratings of drunkenness have been benchmarked against the legendary drinker: "as drunk as Cooter Brown" or "drunker than Cooter Brown.

 

[lionroar88]

They came up through MD via Frederick... along US15... why would the supply lines be 50 miles West?
No they didn't. They crossed the Potomac ai Williamsport Maryland and came through Hagerstown. Lots of misinformation in this thread.

Thanks for the clarification WD. Was it the route of US15 they followed back after Gettysburg?

 

[WDLion]

Thanks for the clarification WD. Was it the route of US15 they followed back after Gettysburg?

Went back the same way. Preceding Antietam the Confederates were in Frederick.

 

[NittPicker]

They came up through MD via Frederick... along US15... why would the supply lines be 50 miles West?
No they didn't. They crossed the Potomac ai Williamsport Maryland and came through Hagerstown. Lots of misinformation in this thread.

North from Hagerstown to Chambersburg along approximtely what is now Route 11. East from Chambersburg to Gettysburg along what is now Route 30. With that in mind (and I'm sure some of you know this), there is a little roundabout with a fountain in the middle of Chambersburg. At the southern edge of the roundabout is a statue of a Union soldier with a rifle. The statue is facing south looking down Route 11, a silent sentry forever guarding against another invasion.

The fountain and statue were dedicated in the decade or so after the Civil War. They're easy to see on Google maps street view. Seeing them up close is tough since they're in the middle of the roundabout and there isn't a sidewalk around it.

 

[razpsu]

Lee didn't send his cavalry away. Jeb Stuart did what he did on his own.

Semantics really. The quote was hooker sent his Calvary away. Lee didn’t have Calvary ahead of him where he should have and gave him orders to cause mischief and screen the eastern flank but once union found out about movement to come back to army. Basically giving Stuart the reigns to do what he wanted instead of understanding this was not Virginia and you are on the offensive. Saying that Lee had two other brigades of Calvary and could but decided not to use them. That is a mystery that he didn’t simply change orders.

How helpful would it have been to have that Calvary secure little round top in the am of day two before infantry arrived instead of just sending a captain to scout the ground.

 

[WDLion]

Semantics really. The quote was hooker sent his Calvary away. Lee didn’t have Calvary ahead of him where he should have and gave him orders to cause mischief and screen the eastern flank but once union found out about movement to come back to army. Basically giving Stuart the reigns to do what he wanted instead of understanding this was not Virginia and you are on the offensive. Saying that Lee had two other brigades of Calvary and could but decided not to use them. That is a mystery that he didn’t simply change orders.

How helpful would it have been to have that Calvary secure little round top in the am of day two before infantry arrived instead of just sending a captain to scout the ground.

Semantics really. The quote was hooker sent his Calvary away. Lee didn’t have Calvary ahead of him where he should have and gave him orders to cause mischief and screen the eastern flank but once union found out about movement to come back to army. Basically giving Stuart the reigns to do what he wanted instead of understanding this was not Virginia and you are on the offensive. Saying that Lee had two other brigades of Calvary and could but decided not to use them. That is a mystery that he didn’t simply change orders.

How helpful would it have been to have that Calvary secure little round top in the am of day two before infantry arrived instead of just sending a captain to scout the ground.

Agree that Stuart was allowed to use his own discretion to a certain extent as long as he remained in contact with rest of the army. He was out of contact for days and had no idea where the rest of the army was or what was happening.

 

[GTACSA]

Thanks for the clarification WD. Was it the route of US15 they followed back after Gettysburg?

The infantry retreated from Gettysburg Southwest to Hagerstown and then south toward Downsville MD along which a final defensive line was set up prior to crossing the Potomac at Falling Waters. The ambulances initially went west toward Chambersburg and then veered to the Southwest and I believe crossed the Potomac at Williamsport.

 

[WDLion]

The infantry retreated from Gettysburg Southwest to Hagerstown and then south toward Downsville MD along which a final defensive line was set up prior to crossing the Potomac at Falling Waters. The ambulances initially went west toward Chambersburg and then veered to the Southwest and I believe crossed the Potomac at Williamsport.

During the night of July 4-5th, General Robert E. Lee's battered army began its retreat from Gettysburg, moving southwest toward Hagerstown and the Potomac River crossing at Williamsport.

 

[GTACSA]

During the night of July 4-5th, General Robert E. Lee's battered army began its retreat from Gettysburg, moving southwest toward Hagerstown and the Potomac River crossing at Williamsport.

While Ewell's Corps crossed at Williamsport, Longstreet's and Hill's Corps crossed at Falling Waters.

An excellent book on the retreat from Gettysburg was written by Kent Masterson Brown, "Retreat From Gettysburg."

 

[WDLion]

While Ewell's Corps crossed at Williamsport, Longstreet's and Hill's Corps crossed at Falling Waters.

An excellent book on the retreat from Gettysburg was written by Kent Masterson Brown, "Retreat From Gettysburg."

I've read that the wagon train carrying the wounded and supplies was 17 miles long.

 

[Nitt1300]

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

At Gettysburg, Lee attackef while the union held the high ground

Seems smart.

 

[NoVa Lion]

There was no way Armistead’s breach could have been sustained.

Bingo. The books and shows about Gettysburg like to play that up as if the South could actually have won that battle but the likelihood of that was so small as to not exist.

 

[WDLion]

Bingo. The books and shows about Gettysburg like to play that up as if the South could actually have won that battle but the likelihood of that was so small as to not exist.

I wouldn't even call it a breach unless you call a few Confederates crossing the wall a breach. Every Confederate that crossed the wall was killed.

In the Battle of Gettysburg, Armistead's brigade arrived the evening of July 2, 1863. Armistead was mortally wounded the next day while leading his brigade towards the center of the Union line in Pickett's Charge. Armistead led his brigade from the front, waving his hat from the tip of his saber, and reached the stone wall at the "Angle", which served as the charge's objective. The brigade got farther in the charge than any other, an event sometimes known as the High Water Mark of the Confederacy, but it was quickly overwhelmed by a Union counterattack. Armistead was shot three times just after crossing the wall. Union Captain Henry H. Bingham received Armistead's personal effects and carried the news to Union Major General Winfield Scott Hancock, who was Armistead's friend from before the war.

 

[Obliviax]

I wouldn't even call it a breach unless you call a few Confederates crossing the wall a breach. Every Confederate that crossed the wall was killed.

In the Battle of Gettysburg, Armistead's brigade arrived the evening of July 2, 1863. Armistead was mortally wounded the next day while leading his brigade towards the center of the Union line in Pickett's Charge. Armistead led his brigade from the front, waving his hat from the tip of his saber, and reached the stone wall at the "Angle", which served as the charge's objective. The brigade got farther in the charge than any other, an event sometimes known as the High Water Mark of the Confederacy, but it was quickly overwhelmed by a Union counterattack. Armistead was shot three times just after crossing the wall. Union Captain Henry H. Bingham received Armistead's personal effects and carried the news to Union Major General Winfield Scott Hancock, who was Armistead's friend from before the war.

And his wounds weren't considered serious and was thought to recover. One of the issues with the times is that they had no knowledge of germs or viruses. So these wounded soldiers were lined up and operated on with no cleaning. They simply reused the knives, saws and dressings again and again and again. If you visit, the barn being the ridge was used for Operations. In the wood floor, you can see a small hole drilled into it. Apparently, it was drilled to allow the blood to drip into the floor below as it was pooling up and making the operating area slippery

 

[razpsu]

As Longstreet said. No 15k can take that hill.

As they say lee’s blood was up. Because day one and day two were so close.

Day two was the biggest miss in my opinion.

 

[psu1969a]

I would not take that lesson from Vietnam - unless you are talking about the USA not invading North Vietnam across the DMZ. In the USA phase of the Vietnam war, the USA was nearly always the aggressor (Westmoreland’s “ search & destroy” strategy) - on the ground in South Veitnam and in the air over the whole of Vietnam. The Communists were able to survive by using guerrilla tactics and “ living to fight another day.” There was actually a great fear that the South would do the same in the US Civil War. Probably the only thing that prevented it was the generous terms offered by Lincoln and Grant and Lee’s encouragement to give upon the fight and go back to being productive citizens.

Biggest mistake in the Vietnam war besides being there in the first place was not fighting to win. Needed a leader such as Patton or Sherman. Respect your opponent and then defeat him.

 

[razpsu]

Did China or Russia threaten move into the north? Like you said past generals would not have done that.

 

[danvillenit]

Biggest mistake in the Vietnam war besides being there in the first place was not fighting to win. Needed a leader such as Patton or Sherman. Respect your opponent and then defeat him.

Vietnam was a civil war that we got entangled. Not sure it was ever winnable in a conventional sense when the population in the south didn’t care

 

[WDLion]

As Longstreet said. No 15k can take that hill.

As they say lee’s blood was up. Because day one and day two were so close.

Day two was the biggest miss in my opinion.

Lee probably should have used day two to rest his army. Most of the divisions in action on day two just arrived that forenoon from Chambersburg.

 

[razpsu]

Well he had to press the attack on day one since his subordinates didn’t follow orders. Why he kept Pickett guarding the pass doesn’t make sense. Day two should have been a rest day.

Like Longstreet said let Meade make a mistake and don’t press it. Stuart arrived day two. Could have changed a great many things

 

[RU31trap]

To me it's amazing the war lasted as long as it did considering the disadvantages the south was faced with from the onset. I remember taking a history class in college when a student asked the professor if the South had the same number of soldiers, heavy rail and the luxury of a manufacturing industry in both Georgia and South Carolina would the outcome have been profoundly different. He said verbatim, the war would have never happened.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

To me it's amazing the war lasted as long as it did considering the disadvantages the south was faced with from the onset. I remember taking a history class in college when a student asked the professor if the South had the same number of soldiers, heavy rail and the luxury of a manufacturing industry in both Georgia and South Carolina would the outcome have been profoundly different. He said verbatim, the war would have never happened.

Was he well versed in logic? Doesn’t seem like it. Coming to any conclusion based on a false premise is a classic mistake - can’t believe a college professor would be so arrogant.

 

[razpsu]

I don’t know about that but it does show the right to bear arms and the people bearing arms will never have the same advantage as the govt does.

 

[psu1969a]

Vietnam was a civil war that we got entangled. Not sure it was ever winnable in a conventional sense when the population in the south didn’t care

Very true, but we kept being politically correct. When you decide to fight; make sure you want to win.

 

[lein]

Well, there is a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square in London.

And a statue of Thomas Paine, "Father of the American Revolution" in Lewes, England.

And another statue of Paine in Thetford, England.

And then there is the Benjamin Franklin house and museum in London. And then....

And Guy Fawkes

And Bonnie Prince Charlie

 

[lein]

It's a shame that Gettysburg overshadowed the Battle of Sterretts Gap days before, where the Nobel 300 held off a Confederate assault.

 

[fairgambit]

And Guy Fawkes

And Bonnie Prince Charlie

Agree on Fawkes, but I'd call Charlie more pretender than traitor. Still, the point is well taken.