OT: On celebration of independence, are we celebrating joining the B1G vs. remaining independent?

[Jerademan74]

I lot has happened since joining the B1G I think in 1993, but being retrospective, do you think we would have been better off staying Independent , at least in football, like Notre Dame? Or are we better off now? There are lots of pros and cons and, but curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[Rick76]

The BIG has treated us like the red headed step child ever since it was announced in Dec. 1989 that we would join. Two BIG schools voted against us joining. Most sports began competing in the BIG within a year or two. But football said it would take five years to integrate us into BIG football schedules. That was a crock. These days, schools join a new conference and start competing within a year.

After a couple years of stalling, PSU said Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and the BIG grudgingly allowed us to play football beginning in 1993. Almost immediately, we started to see that the BIG was all about OSU and UM and everyone else was there to support the crown princes.

BIG sports writers screwed us out of a share of the MNC in 1994, we lost close games to UM and OSU on bogus calls, and we were properly relegated to pretender status. The 2005 game at Michigan and the 2008 game at Iowa are prime examples.

Lately, with instant replay and review, the playing field has become more level. I see us being one of two marquee programs in the BIG for years to come (OSU being the other as long as Urban is there).

Other sports have fared well. I think we're right up there in total BIG championships and national championships. Men's basketball has been a disaster, but I think we're about to turn the corner.

I also think that the addition of Rutgers and MD showed the stodgy midwest how important the big city markets on the East Coast are to the future of the BIG and the BTN. The primary axis of the BIG used to run from Columbus to Ann Arbor. Now I think it has shifted eastward and runs from Columbus to NYC and runs through State College.

 

[Mack_Daddy]

The BIG has treated us like the red headed step child ever since it was announced in Dec. 1989 that we would join. Two BIG schools voted against us joining. Most sports began competing in the BIG within a year or two. But football said it would take five years to integrate us into BIG football schedules. That was a crock. These days, schools join a new conference and start competing within a year.

After a couple years of stalling, PSU said Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and the BIG grudgingly allowed us to play football beginning in 1993. Almost immediately, we started to see that the BIG was all about OSU and UM and everyone else was there to support the crown princes.

BIG sports writers screwed us out of a share of the MNC in 1994, we lost close games to UM and OSU on bogus calls, and we were properly relegated to pretender status. The 2005 game at Michigan and the 2008 game at Iowa are prime examples.

Lately, with instant replay and review, the playing field has become more level. I see us being one of two marquee programs in the BIG for years to come (OSU being the other as long as Urban is there).

Other sports have fared well. I think we're right up there in total BIG championships and national championships. Men's basketball has been a disaster, but I think we're about to turn the corner.

I also think that the addition of Rutgers and MD showed the stodgy midwest how important the big city markets on the East Coast are to the future of the BIG and the BTN. The primary axis of the BIG used to run from Columbus to Ann Arbor. Now I think it has shifted eastward and runs from Columbus to NYC and runs through State College.

Take off your blue and white goggles.

This "officially" began when Penn State announced it wasn't renewing their contract with Syracuse. At the time, this announcement made little to no sense.

Then, in 1989, it was announced that Penn State would join the Big 10. Penn State had multiple contractual arrangements with other independent schools that would have been hurt financially if Penn State just dropped them immediately.

Yes, 2 schools voted "no". Lawmakers vote "no" on bills that will most assuredly pass. Why? Postering. Feeding their constituents. Whatever.

The flag for excessive noise in 1993 was a purposeful "Welcome to the Big 10" message.

The votes in 1994 were NOT anti-Penn State as much as they were Pro-Tom Osborne.

Bad calls go both ways. List all the bad calls that went in favor of the Nittany Lions and then compare. I don't doubt that the ref in 2002 (Iowa) was crooked. The last second for Meechigan? Penn State should've defended better. 2008 (Iowa)? Questionable.

 

[BobPSU92]

The BIG has treated us like the red headed step child ever since it was announced in Dec. 1989 that we would join. Two BIG schools voted against us joining. Most sports began competing in the BIG within a year or two. But football said it would take five years to integrate us into BIG football schedules. That was a crock. These days, schools join a new conference and start competing within a year.

After a couple years of stalling, PSU said Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and the BIG grudgingly allowed us to play football beginning in 1993. Almost immediately, we started to see that the BIG was all about OSU and UM and everyone else was there to support the crown princes.

BIG sports writers screwed us out of a share of the MNC in 1994, we lost close games to UM and OSU on bogus calls, and we were properly relegated to pretender status. The 2005 game at Michigan and the 2008 game at Iowa are prime examples.

Lately, with instant replay and review, the playing field has become more level. I see us being one of two marquee programs in the BIG for years to come (OSU being the other as long as Urban is there).

Other sports have fared well. I think we're right up there in total BIG championships and national championships. Men's basketball has been a disaster, but I think we're about to turn the corner.

I also think that the addition of Rutgers and MD showed the stodgy midwest how important the big city markets on the East Coast are to the future of the BIG and the BTN. The primary axis of the BIG used to run from Columbus to Ann Arbor. Now I think it has shifted eastward and runs from Columbus to NYC and runs through State College.

Penn State has the most team national championships among b1g schools both all-time and since joining the b1g.

Success With Honor.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

I lot has happened since joining the B1G I think in 1993, but being retrospective, do you think we would have been better off staying Independent , at least in football, like Notre Dame? Or are we better off now? There are lots of pros and cons and, but curious to hear your thoughts.

Well, if your idea of "better off" is either no football or the SMU version of the Death Penalty, then I guess Independence is your thing. Jim Delany did more to keep us alive and standing behind the scenes than anyone else with any power affiliated with either Penn State or the NCAA.

 

[BobPSU92]

The BIG has treated us like the red headed step child ever since it was announced in Dec. 1989 that we would join. Two BIG schools voted against us joining. Most sports began competing in the BIG within a year or two. But football said it would take five years to integrate us into BIG football schedules. That was a crock. These days, schools join a new conference and start competing within a year.

After a couple years of stalling, PSU said Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and the BIG grudgingly allowed us to play football beginning in 1993. Almost immediately, we started to see that the BIG was all about OSU and UM and everyone else was there to support the crown princes.

BIG sports writers screwed us out of a share of the MNC in 1994, we lost close games to UM and OSU on bogus calls, and we were properly relegated to pretender status. The 2005 game at Michigan and the 2008 game at Iowa are prime examples.

Lately, with instant replay and review, the playing field has become more level. I see us being one of two marquee programs in the BIG for years to come (OSU being the other as long as Urban is there).

Other sports have fared well. I think we're right up there in total BIG championships and national championships. Men's basketball has been a disaster, but I think we're about to turn the corner.

I also think that the addition of Rutgers and MD showed the stodgy midwest how important the big city markets on the East Coast are to the future of the BIG and the BTN. The primary axis of the BIG used to run from Columbus to Ann Arbor. Now I think it has shifted eastward and runs from Columbus to NYC and runs through State College.

Regarding the advent of instant replay and review, I generally agree with you, but 2014 Tosu still happened.

 

[Jerademan74]

Well, if your idea of "better off" is either no football or the SMU version of the Death Penalty, then I guess Independence is your thing. Jim Delany did more to keep us alive and standing behind the scenes than anyone else with any power affiliated with either Penn State or the NCAA.

Do you really believe that Jim Delaney helped keep Penn State football alive? Then why did he fine us like $13 Million presumably to feed to the other B1G schools by not allowing us to take our share of bowl money allocations over a 4 year period and also not allowing us to contend for a B1G championship over those 4 years? Yes, this was shortened after the NCAA shortened their sanctions, but I would never say that Jim Delaney was a friend of Penn State! Look, I posted this because I am torn between whether we made the right move. Of course it is a moot point as we did join and you can't turn back history. Having both OSU and Michigan in the BIG East makes it more difficult for us to win another National Championship, but with the momentum of our current team effort, we may just pull it off this year!

 

[kgilbert78]

I lot has happened since joining the B1G I think in 1993, but being retrospective, do you think we would have been better off staying Independent , at least in football, like Notre Dame? Or are we better off now? There are lots of pros and cons and, but curious to hear your thoughts.

Notre Dame is the only school that could have remained an independent as they have a broader national fanbase with lots of fans who have no connection to the university other than being a fan (BYU to a lesser extent). And even Notre Dame has not been an independent in anything other than football for a long time now. With their new ACC deal, they really are a football independent in name only.

 

[NittPicker]

Given today's media deals, being independent would never work. If this was 1990 I'd urge Penn State to join the ACC since that's the area where the alumni base is located. However, if that happened our athletics department would have evolved into something different from what we see today. That wouldn't necessarily be good or bad - just something different. I doubt wrestling and ice hockey would be where they are today if we were in the ACC. OTOH, other sports may have become stronger if we were in the ACC. Without a magic crystal ball there's no way to know what would have happened.

Here in 2017 being in the B1G has been a mixed bag. Of course there is the exasperating conference fixation on OSU and UM. Then there was the strange anti PSU sentiment within the conference when we joined. OTOH, as has already been mentioned PSU has more NCAA championships that any other B1G school. And with the addition of Rutgers and Maryland a sizable of chunk of the PSU alumni base has been brought into the conference footprint.

It was only a matter of time in 1990 until we joined a conference. Independence never would have worked. Even the egomaniacs at Notre Dame know deep down that their independence can't go on forever.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Let's see how long the media deals make it worth everyone's while to be in these conferences. A few years ago people were predicting super conferences. I predict the opposite and think things will revert back to something like the regional conference alignments from 40 years ago. Television's monopoly on sports viewing is over, and there are going to be some massive haircuts on media deals in the 2020s, from pro to college. When that bubble bursts, a lot of the mega salaries and other fluff will be done.

 

[Rick76]

Let's see how long the media deals make it worth everyone's while to be in these conferences. A few years ago people were predicting super conferences. I predict the opposite and think things will revert back to something like the regional conference alignments from 40 years ago. Television's monopoly on sports viewing is over, and there are going to be some massive haircuts on media deals in the 2020s, from pro to college. When that bubble bursts, a lot of the mega salaries and other fluff will be done.

Fairfax, I think you're right. These things go in cycles - just like with corporations. They get bigger and bigger and then they spin off and become smaller. Eventually, I think travel costs for non-revenue producing sports will dictate that regional conferences make sense. Can you imagine what BC's travel costs are for non-revenue producing sports traveling in the East Coast Corridor to all the southern ACC schools? And how about Nebraska making trip after trip to the east coast to play PSU, Rutgers and MD.

I think adding Rutgers and MD to the BIG is the precursor of the eastern sports league that should have been formed back in the 1980's.

 

[AWS1022]

Take off your blue and white goggles.

This "officially" began when Penn State announced it wasn't renewing their contract with Syracuse. At the time, this announcement made little to no sense.

Then, in 1989, it was announced that Penn State would join the Big 10. Penn State had multiple contractual arrangements with other independent schools that would have been hurt financially if Penn State just dropped them immediately.

Yes, 2 schools voted "no". Lawmakers vote "no" on bills that will most assuredly pass. Why? Postering. Feeding their constituents. Whatever.

The flag for excessive noise in 1993 was a purposeful "Welcome to the Big 10" message.

The votes in 1994 were NOT anti-Penn State as much as they were Pro-Tom Osborne.

Bad calls go both ways. List all the bad calls that went in favor of the Nittany Lions and then compare. I don't doubt that the ref in 2002 (Iowa) was crooked. The last second for Meechigan? Penn State should've defended better. 2008 (Iowa)? Questionable.

Please list all the bad calls that went against OSU or Michigan in all the games we played them, especially the ones that were so bad they gave us the win. How about listing one. After all, they go both ways, right?

 

[NewEra 2014]

I lot has happened since joining the B1G I think in 1993, but being retrospective, do you think we would have been better off staying Independent , at least in football, like Notre Dame? Or are we better off now? There are lots of pros and cons and, but curious to hear your thoughts.

I think it is more likely that the Big East would have survived as a conference in some form with Penn State as a charter member than Penn State remaining independent. Maybe we would be in a conference with ND as well.

 

[Mack_Daddy]

Fairfax, I think you're right. These things go in cycles - just like with corporations. They get bigger and bigger and then they spin off and become smaller. Eventually, I think travel costs for non-revenue producing sports will dictate that regional conferences make sense. Can you imagine what BC's travel costs are for non-revenue producing sports traveling in the East Coast Corridor to all the southern ACC schools? And how about Nebraska making trip after trip to the east coast to play PSU, Rutgers and MD.

I think adding Rutgers and MD to the BIG is the precursor of the eastern sports league that should have been formed back in the 1980's.

Interesting point. That would mean a monumental shift. ACC teams going to the BIG East and SEC and the remainder as The ACC. SEC teams to join the BIG 12. It would work, but it would take someone outside to say who goes where. For example, when they moved Brewers to NL and Astros to AL.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

Fairfax, I think you're right. These things go in cycles - just like with corporations. They get bigger and bigger and then they spin off and become smaller. Eventually, I think travel costs for non-revenue producing sports will dictate that regional conferences make sense. Can you imagine what BC's travel costs are for non-revenue producing sports traveling in the East Coast Corridor to all the southern ACC schools? And how about Nebraska making trip after trip to the east coast to play PSU, Rutgers and MD.

I think adding Rutgers and MD to the BIG is the precursor of the eastern sports league that should have been formed back in the 1980's.

What is truly amazing is the executives who do not consider the possibility that things move in cycles, and instead assume that trends will move up in a straight line for the rest of eternity

 

[BobPSU92]

Please take this opportunity to realize that Penn State owns the b1g, to the chagrin of the establishment.

 

[Jerademan74]

Please take this opportunity to realize that Penn State owns the b1g, to the chagrin of the establishment.

I wouldn't say that Penn State owns the B1G, but I would say that we have changed it's landscape considerably by strengthening it. I don't know how Rutgers and / or Maryland have helped the B1G, but they certainly have bolstered the BTN viewership numbers!

 

[lein]

Take off your blue and white goggles.

This "officially" began when Penn State announced it wasn't renewing their contract with Syracuse. At the time, this announcement made little to no sense..

Why is that? Why is it to PSU's benefit to subsidize Syracuse's (and Pitt's) football program?

 

[Art]

Why is that? Why is it to PSU's benefit to subsidize Syracuse's (and Pitt's) football program?

Not speaking to Pitt and Syracuse directly, but the answer to your question is that a school often has to "subsidize" opponents to fill out a schedule.

 

[Rick76]

If I'm Eric Barron and Sandy Barbour, my guiding principles are:

1. Do what's best for PSU - if it helps or hurts OSU, UM, Pitt, Syr, RU, etc - I don't care. We do what's best for PSU.

2. Maximize research dollars. Honestly, Pennsylvania should be making a huge push for tech/eng companies of all stripes to come to PA. With our top STEM universities (PSU, Penn, CMU, Drexel, Pitt, Lehigh) we should be producing more than enough STEM grads to prime the pump for tech/eng companies. Of course, the Gov and Legislature have to help out.

3. We're almost to the point where a hint at PUS leaving the BIG, going to the ACC or forming the eastern all sports conference would send shudders through the BIG. We're there in wrestling, hockey and football. Just need men's basketball and baseball to be more competititive. One thing for sure, Pat Chambers has had enough of the BIG.

Imagine a scenario where Eric and Sandy go the annual BIG meeting and drop hints that we're thinking of leaving and maybe taking RU and MD with us. The value of the BTN drops precipitously and $$ from Fox and ESPN dwindle.

I also think there's the possibility that most schools won't be members of their conference for all sports. For example, PSU could be part of the ACC for most sports and play in an eastern hockey league and eastern wrestling league.

We're getting close to being the Big Dog that dominates the conversation.

 

[Nitwit]

Haven't we gone through this hundreds of times on this board? We are in the Big and we are there to stay.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

One thing for sure, Pat Chambers has had enough of the BIG.
.

What makes you say this? I never got that impression

 

[Rick76]

I've been a PSU hoops season ticket holder for several years. I've never seen a PSU coach more exasperated with BIG officiating than Pat was last year. Our guys drive to the hoop and get mugged - no call. Wiscy, Mich or Indy players drive to the hoop and get touched by one of our players - two shot foul. Many of the fouls called on Watkins, Carr and Stevens last year were absurd.

Pat and some of the players picked up several technicals towards the end of the year that reflected their frustration. Jerardi alludes to the "bias" in his commentary.

I think Pat thinks he has the players to compete in the BIG - he just needs consistency from the refs.

 

[Rick76]

Haven't we gone through this hundreds of times on this board? We are in the Big and we are there to stay.

Nothing is permanent. We'll do what's best for us. Right now, being in the BIG is probably optimal. Ten years down the road, it might not be. There was a time when the Southwest Conference was dominant. It doesn't even exist anymore. Back in the 1940's and 1950's, Army and Navy were the powers in college football. Who thought Nebraska would ever leave the Big 8 or Big 12 or whatever they are?

 

[BobPSU92]

I wouldn't say that Penn State owns the B1G, but I would say that we have changed it's landscape considerably by strengthening it. I don't know how Rutgers and / or Maryland have helped the B1G, but they certainly have bolstered the BTN viewership numbers!

I say Penn State owns the b1g and am OUTRAGED. by anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[fairfaxlion2]

I've been a PSU hoops season ticket holder for several years. I've never seen a PSU coach more exasperated with BIG officiating than Pat was last year. Our guys drive to the hoop and get mugged - no call. Wiscy, Mich or Indy players drive to the hoop and get touched by one of our players - two shot foul. Many of the fouls called on Watkins, Carr and Stevens last year were absurd.

Pat and some of the players picked up several technicals towards the end of the year that reflected their frustration. Jerardi alludes to the "bias" in his commentary.

I think Pat thinks he has the players to compete in the BIG - he just needs consistency from the refs.

He was playing with a bunch of freshmen. Itwas more than the refs holding them back. There were no devastating transfers. He will have a good record this season.

 

[Jerademan74]

He was playing with a bunch of freshmen. Itwas more than the refs holding them back. There were no devastating transfers. He will have a good record this season.

Until we play our conference games!

 

[nittany119]

The BIG has treated us like the red headed step child ever since it was announced in Dec. 1989 that we would join. Two BIG schools voted against us joining. Most sports began competing in the BIG within a year or two. But football said it would take five years to integrate us into BIG football schedules. That was a crock. These days, schools join a new conference and start competing within a year.

After a couple years of stalling, PSU said Whiskey Tango Foxtrot and the BIG grudgingly allowed us to play football beginning in 1993. Almost immediately, we started to see that the BIG was all about OSU and UM and everyone else was there to support the crown princes.

BIG sports writers screwed us out of a share of the MNC in 1994, we lost close games to UM and OSU on bogus calls, and we were properly relegated to pretender status. The 2005 game at Michigan and the 2008 game at Iowa are prime examples.

Lately, with instant replay and review, the playing field has become more level. I see us being one of two marquee programs in the BIG for years to come (OSU being the other as long as Urban is there).

Other sports have fared well. I think we're right up there in total BIG championships and national championships. Men's basketball has been a disaster, but I think we're about to turn the corner.

I also think that the addition of Rutgers and MD showed the stodgy midwest how important the big city markets on the East Coast are to the future of the BIG and the BTN. The primary axis of the BIG used to run from Columbus to Ann Arbor. Now I think it has shifted eastward and runs from Columbus to NYC and runs through State College.

It was not big 10 writers that screwed us on 1994. Yes, there was big sentiment for Tom Osborne to win a MNC. But if you look at the voting, you will see that many western Pa writers didn't vote for PSU. They were getting back at Joe for all the perceived slights they felt he did to them. Tough to win an election when you can't win your home state.

 

[nittany119]

Given today's media deals, being independent would never work. If this was 1990 I'd urge Penn State to join the ACC since that's the area where the alumni base is located. However, if that happened our athletics department would have evolved into something different from what we see today. That wouldn't necessarily be good or bad - just something different. I doubt wrestling and ice hockey would be where they are today if we were in the ACC. OTOH, other sports may have become stronger if we were in the ACC. Without a magic crystal ball there's no way to know what would have happened.

Here in 2017 being in the B1G has been a mixed bag. Of course there is the exasperating conference fixation on OSU and UM. Then there was the strange anti PSU sentiment within the conference when we joined. OTOH, as has already been mentioned PSU has more NCAA championships that any other B1G school. And with the addition of Rutgers and Maryland a sizable of chunk of the PSU alumni base has been brought into the conference footprint.

It was only a matter of time in 1990 until we joined a conference. Independence never would have worked. Even the egomaniacs at Notre Dame know deep down that their independence can't go on forever.

Had Joe gotten what he proposed in the East, we would have been in a conference and not needed the big 10. You are right, joining a conference was inevitable.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

If I'm Eric Barron and Sandy Barbour, my guiding principles are:

1. Do what's best for PSU - if it helps or hurts OSU, UM, Pitt, Syr, RU, etc - I don't care. We do what's best for PSU.

2. Maximize research dollars. Honestly, Pennsylvania should be making a huge push for tech/eng companies of all stripes to come to PA. With our top STEM universities (PSU, Penn, CMU, Drexel, Pitt, Lehigh) we should be producing more than enough STEM grads to prime the pump for tech/eng companies. Of course, the Gov and Legislature have to help out.

3. We're almost to the point where a hint at PUS leaving the BIG, going to the ACC or forming the eastern all sports conference would send shudders through the BIG. We're there in wrestling, hockey and football. Just need men's basketball and baseball to be more competititive. One thing for sure, Pat Chambers has had enough of the BIG.

Imagine a scenario where Eric and Sandy go the annual BIG meeting and drop hints that we're thinking of leaving and maybe taking RU and MD with us. The value of the BTN drops precipitously and $$ from Fox and ESPN dwindle.

I also think there's the possibility that most schools won't be members of their conference for all sports. For example, PSU could be part of the ACC for most sports and play in an eastern hockey league and eastern wrestling league.

We're getting close to being the Big Dog that dominates the conversation.

One trip through Tobacco Road, and Pat would be drooling to play Indiana and MSU again. Talk about Red Headed Stepchild.

And why you would want to associate yourself with 3 schools that stuck it right up our a$$ in November 1981 is beyond me. Joe had your Eastern All Sports Conference ready to go, including a guaranteed trip to the Fiesta Bowl every year for the Champion until Pitt, BC, and Syracuse pulled out without any warning literally at the last minute.

The Big Ten finally gave us an all sports life raft a few years later when no one else, including the Big East, wanted us. We took it.

And if you are depending on the State of Pennsylvania to do anything advantageous for Penn State, you have been living on Mars the last 6 years.

 

[AuthorJoe]

Notre Dame is the only school that could have remained an independent as they have a broader national fanbase with lots of fans who have no connection to the university other than being a fan (BYU to a lesser extent). And even Notre Dame has not been an independent in anything other than football for a long time now. With their new ACC deal, they really are a football independent in name only.

ND will become a full fledged member of the ACC within the next five years. I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened already.

 

[kgilbert78]

ND will become a full fledged member of the ACC within the next five years. I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened already.

It's hard to break with tradition. But I think you are correct. The key? When does the NBC contract for ND run out? That will be telling.

 

[cidsports]

Notre Dame is the only school that could have remained an independent as they have a broader national fanbase with lots of fans who have no connection to the university other than being a fan (BYU to a lesser extent). And even Notre Dame has not been an independent in anything other than football for a long time now. With their new ACC deal, they really are a football independent in name only.

Notre Dame is an ACC program, with an asterisk for College Football.

BYU is the only true Independent right now and they get the pleasure of hosting Wisconsin in Week 3.

The Fighting Irish has become relevant, as Miami-FL or Tennessee in the College Football landscape.

Penn State is a step ahead, from their pecking order in the Big Ten ...

peace