OT: The decline of PA Volunteer Fire Fighters

[Cosmos]

I saw this on the TV news this morning so I cannot provide a link.

No. of volunteer fire fighters...
1970s 300,000
2000 60,000
2018 38,000

It's deemed a public safety crisis because 90% of fire depts. in PA are volunteer. Moreover, most volunteers are over 40 years of age.

I applaud my old home town of 2,000 people for hanging onto its VFD, albeit its not without challenges.

 

[bison13]

Luckily for our family's safety growing up there were 3 VFD's within 5 miles of the house. Each of them had an old truck and about a dozen volunteers, dad always made sure to donate to their calendar funds, go to their dinners etc. When the wife and I moved in to this house we saw that the paid FD was at least 20 minutes away while there were two maybe three VFD closer. We've made sure to give to each of them and yes it also appears that most of them are 40+ as well. There is going to be a severe problem with the next generation without some serious recruiting tactics.

 

[PS4814]

Don’t know how departments were run decades back but I can say from knowing several volunteers in towns nearby that if you’re not a nascar loving, miller lite drinking, rednecking good’ol boy you don’t fit the culture of the station. While I understand that these values are held by many in rural areas it doesn’t do much for inclusiveness and bringing in new people. Plus there seems to be constant ‘drama’ between local departments over who responds to what which again contributes to a negative environment.

If they want to attract new folks the “good’ol boys” gotta change their ways.

 

[NittPicker]

When I was growing up in western PA, the local volunteer fire hall was the de facto community center. All had kitchens and it seemed every weekend there was a fundraiser for something, either for the fire company itself or some other community organization. Most had outdoor picnic areas and summertime BBQs were frequent. A couple in the area even had indoor basketball courts so a lot of people went there to socialize and play hoops. For many people weekends often meant Saturday at the fire hall to socialize followed by Sunday at church. Many people in my area back then worked either farming or mining so screwing off and socializing at work wasn't a thing.

The population decline in many rural areas of PA is an obvious big factor in the decline of volunteer numbers. Also nowadays for young people, the spirit of volunteering isn't as ingrained as it once was. That's a shame.

 

[sluggo72]

My dad volunteered at 2 different companies, 1 where we lived, the other where he worked
Nothing stopped him from going. Here they set off a whistle, when it blew he went, home or work he was gone. He never did much of the ‘social’ stuff, but he did go to fire school to learn to drive the trucks, work the pumps, hoses etc. he drove up until he was 80
It seems I’ve always lived where there are paid services
It was very important to him to do this. The companies all had fund raisers to buy trucks and equipment, I did help him w all of that

 

[bison13]

Don’t know how departments were run decades back but I can say from knowing several volunteers in towns nearby that if you’re not a nascar loving, miller lite drinking, rednecking good’ol boy you don’t fit the culture of the station. While I understand that these values are held by many in rural areas it doesn’t do much for inclusiveness and bringing in new people. Plus there seems to be constant ‘drama’ between local departments over who responds to what which again contributes to a negative environment.

If they want to attract new folks the “good’ol boys” gotta change their ways.

Where do/did you live because its nothing like that from where I was... Definitely more like the post for NittPicker

 

[mean15]

Don’t know how departments were run decades back but I can say from knowing several volunteers in towns nearby that if you’re not a nascar loving, miller lite drinking, rednecking good’ol boy you don’t fit the culture of the station. While I understand that these values are held by many in rural areas it doesn’t do much for inclusiveness and bringing in new people. Plus there seems to be constant ‘drama’ between local departments over who responds to what which again contributes to a negative environment.

If they want to attract new folks the “good’ol boys” gotta change their ways.

I am a 40 year member of a VFD with about 50 active members. What you described above doesn't really fit ANY of our members.

 

[PS4814]

Where do/did you live because its nothing like that from where I was... Definitely more like the post for NittPicker

Again, things may have been different when you were growing up, it’s not the current reality in the rural areas near me.

I am a 40 year member of a VFD with about 50 active members. What you described above doesn't really fit ANY of our members.

I’m happy that your dept is run in a more professional way than those in my locale. I never said I don’t appreciate what you all do, just sharing my perspective from experiences with the local crews.

 

[walleye38]

I saw this on the TV news this morning so I cannot provide a link.

No. of volunteer fire fighters...
1970s 300,000
2000 60,000
2018 38,000

It's deemed a public safety crisis because 90% of fire depts. in PA are volunteer. Moreover, most volunteers are over 40 years of age.

I applaud my old home town of 2,000 people for hanging onto its VFD, albeit its not without challenges.

I saw this on the TV news this morning so I cannot provide a link.

No. of volunteer fire fighters...
1970s 300,000
2000 60,000
2018 38,000

It's deemed a public safety crisis because 90% of fire depts. in PA are volunteer. Moreover, most volunteers are over 40 years of age.

I applaud my old home town of 2,000 people for hanging onto its VFD, albeit its not without challenges.

The younger generation is too afraid it will interfer with their cell phone usage, or game boy. What a bunch of woosies.

 

[Lionsburg]

The main reason that there is a decline in the number of volunteers across the country is the amount of hours required to obtain or maintain the needed certifications in order to operate as a firefighter or EMT.

Back in the “old” days most training was provided at the department level by the current members of the department and was minimum at best.

Post 9/11 there were some major changes in the fire and EMS service and many departments now require standardized training that require hundreds of hours each year and frankly people don’t have that much time to give nowadays.

Many times in order for a department to receive grants or funding they must prove that their members have the required training and are actively maintaining their certifications. Many all volunteer department are finding it necessary to reach out to their localities and request assistance in the form of career firefighters.

From a selfish standpoint this is perfect for me. I’ve been a career firefighter for 15 years in Northern Virgina so I am a huge advocate for more paid fire and EMS positions. However, I spent 10 years as a volunteer firefighter in my hometown so I understand the importance of the volunteer system. Most everyone I work with got their start as volunteer firefighter or EMT in some capacity.

There’s also the career vs volunteer mentality that exists almost everywhere in the country but that’s a topic for another day!

 

[psu_1294]

I agree, most departments are not like PS4814 describes. Unless he lives in the South?

I think a big part of the decline was the end of Blue Laws in the late 70’s. Prior to that, you couldn’t do many activities on Sundays after church, except family functions. This included shopping and restaurants and taverns. The many private clubs like the Vets, Legions, Elks, Sons of Italy and all the Firemen’s clubs existed to give men a place to go on Sundays to have a beer, shoot a game of pool, pull the slot handles, play gin (or drink it) and socialize on Sundays. Many had kitchens and dining rooms for families to come and eat Sunday dinner (all you can eat fish or fried chicken for $3.75!). They also organized many activities and fundraisers at various times during the year.

So, in return for the privileges of belonging to a private firemen’s club, these guys would help fight (thankfully) the rare fire and they got good training in emergency response and were always available for the emergency call. Usually one night a week was training, followed by a few hours of socializing in the club room. In today’s world, Sundays are just like any other week day. Except for eating a Chick-fil-A or hunting, you can do almost anything on Sundays. I left Church at 9:00 this morning and the hair cut place was already open!

Just a note, I had an uncle electrocuted (they revived him, thankfully) and a cousin badly burned serving as a volunteer. Thank you to any of you that serve as a volunteer firefighter or any (also you paid ones) first responder.

 

[okinburg1]

Grew up in a small town in eastern central PA. My Dad is a 50+ year volunteer fireman, never had any training and never went to a single fire. I've been a "member" of the same company for 30 years, no training, never went to a single fire.
Don't get me wrong, there was always a small group of actual firefighting members, but for the majority of us it was a social club. Cheap beer, darts, pool tables and really nothing else.
The quoted decline in numbers might be related to the dying social aspect, which is definitely the case at my company.

 

[psu_1294]

I agree, most departments are not like PS4814 describes. Unless he lives in the South?

I think a big part of the decline was the end of Blue Laws in the late 70’s. Prior to that, you couldn’t do many activities on Sundays after church, except family functions. This included shopping and restaurants and taverns. The many private clubs like the Vets, Legions, Elks, Sons of Italy and all the Firemen’s clubs existed to give men a place to go on Sundays to have a beer, shoot a game of pool, pull the slot handles, play gin (or drink it) and socialize on Sundays. Many had kitchens and dining rooms for families to come and eat Sunday dinner (all you can eat fish or fried chicken for $3.75!). They also organized many activities and fundraisers at various times during the year.

So, in return for the privileges of belonging to a private firemen’s club, these guys would help fight (thankfully) the rare fire and they got good training in emergency response and were always available for the emergency call. Usually one night a week was training, followed by a few hours of socializing in the club room. In today’s world, Sundays are just like any other week day. Except for eating a Chick-fil-A or hunting, you can do almost anything on Sundays. I left Church at 9:00 this morning and the hair cut place was already open!

Just a note, I had an uncle electrocuted (they revived him, thankfully) and a cousin badly burned serving as a volunteer. Thank you to any of you that serve as a volunteer firefighter or any (also you paid ones) first responder.

BTW, I didn’t mean they volunteered just to join a firemen’s club. They were dedicated people. Just the social club aspect was an added incentive. Probably some joined for the social aspect .

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

I saw this on the TV news this morning so I cannot provide a link.

No. of volunteer fire fighters...
1970s 300,000
2000 60,000
2018 38,000

It's deemed a public safety crisis because 90% of fire depts. in PA are volunteer. Moreover, most volunteers are over 40 years of age.

I applaud my old home town of 2,000 people for hanging onto its VFD, albeit its not without challenges.

This is a national crisis as around 60% of all firefighters nationwide are volunteers and nationally the decline is similar to your stats for PA.

 

[Ct. Lion]

In my town in Ct. we have three different fire houses because the town is geographically large and difficult to travel. Each has its own mission and membership. Recruiting is difficult for all of the reasons mentioned in the posts above.
The fire dept. solved some of this short-fall through recruiting other groups to help their cause. When I was in the local Lions Club we ran a Game Dinner fundraiser for the fire house and then took over the duties of running the 4th of July parade for the firemen. IMHO, there is no other volunteer job more time consuming and difficult than being a volunteer fireman so the entire town needs to embrace their mission one way or the other.

 

[glidresquirrel]

In my township we have a large Old Order Mennonite/ Conservative Mennonite population. Many drive cars that are dark and a lot are dairy farmers that comprise our Volunteer Dept. We are lucky because they are much easier to be available at any time. They are already a pretty tight community and work together. Non Menno Neighbor caught a field on fire yrs ago and I was out myself with a shovel. It was mostly contained by the time thyey got here and the one came up to me look kinda of down. I am sucking wind from smoke and all . He says''Kind of sorry you got it controlled we just got a new piece of equipment and we were hoping to try it out'' I know a few of them from just around the area good guys.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

It's kind of dumb that in 2019 we don't just pay firefighters.

 

[glidresquirrel]

It's kind of dumb that in 2019 we don't just pay firefighters.

In rural areas there may not be a fire or emergency for days or even weeks . It is not like they are on patrol and bringing revenue like police do.

 

[Whaaaaaaaany]

Inevitably I think it's going to go to a more county wide paid fire department system unless adjoining towns get together and do it on their own. There simply aren't enough "events" going on in each township (and I can only relate to the Pittsburgh North Hills where I'm a volunteer firefighter) to justify each having their own fire department. While we've mutual aided a few large fires in the last few years (including a few in the last few weeks), we haven't had a bulldoze the remains fire in my township in probably 10+ years. Most fire calls are fluid containment for minor accidents, and "smells and bells" calls. If you see "flame" it's probably a car fire or a neighbor pissed off about somebodies bonfire.

There's a lot of hurdles to be overcome, the biggest I see with some paid departments and volunteers the next town over is mutual aid calls...I can see the people in the paid area getting upset that their "money" is going to another town, but you're going to need them someday and it's a two way street.

 

[Parkland Fan]

Inevitably I think it's going to go to a more county wide paid fire department system unless adjoining towns get together and do it on their own. There simply aren't enough "events" going on in each township (and I can only relate to the Pittsburgh North Hills where I'm a volunteer firefighter) to justify each having their own fire department. While we've mutual aided a few large fires in the last few years (including a few in the last few weeks), we haven't had a bulldoze the remains fire in my township in probably 10+ years. Most fire calls are fluid containment for minor accidents, and "smells and bells" calls. If you see "flame" it's probably a car fire or a neighbor pissed off about somebodies bonfire.

There's a lot of hurdles to be overcome, the biggest I see with some paid departments and volunteers the next town over is mutual aid calls...I can see the people in the paid area getting upset that their "money" is going to another town, but you're going to need them someday and it's a two way street.

My son joined the local volunteer fire company (Western Salisbury) the day he turned 16. He joined Alpha when he was a student at Penn State. One summer he worked (paid 50% of hours, had to volunteer 50%) for the Emmaus Fire Department. Currently he is with Whitehall (the one just south of Pittsburgh). That's 17 years total. He is still good friends with many of the guys from Western Salisbury.
He has well over 200 hours of formal training.
He did end up in the emergency room once after a call. He rescued a dog which bit him through his glove. Would you believe it was a chiwauwa (sp?). Many dinners had to be reheated due to an untimely call.
He really matured from this experience. I always insisted that he keep this volunteer work on his resume because it shows character.

 

[Steviedpsu]

A year or two ago Pa passed a law where local volunteer firefighters and EMS people could be exempt from certain real estate taxes. This was done to try to help recruit volunteers.

 

[jayhawks65]

Don’t know how departments were run decades back but I can say from knowing several volunteers in towns nearby that if you’re not a nascar loving, miller lite drinking, rednecking good’ol boy you don’t fit the culture of the station. While I understand that these values are held by many in rural areas it doesn’t do much for inclusiveness and bringing in new people. Plus there seems to be constant ‘drama’ between local departments over who responds to what which again contributes to a negative environment.

If they want to attract new folks the “good’ol boys” gotta change their ways.

 

[heckmans]

It's kind of dumb that in 2019 we don't just pay firefighters.

True. Money grows on trees in 2019 as opposed to the past when small municipalities didn't have the budgets for a professional staff.

 

[heckmans]

My son joined the local volunteer fire company (Western Salisbury) the day he turned 16. He joined Alpha when he was a student at Penn State. One summer he worked (paid 50% of hours, had to volunteer 50%) for the Emmaus Fire Department. Currently he is with Whitehall (the one just south of Pittsburgh). That's 17 years total. He is still good friends with many of the guys from Western Salisbury.
He has well over 200 hours of formal training.
He did end up in the emergency room once after a call. He rescued a dog which bit him through his glove. Would you believe it was a chiwauwa (sp?). Many dinners had to be reheated due to an untimely call.
He really matured from this experience. I always insisted that he keep this volunteer work on his resume because it shows character.

Salisbury grad here. Many thanks to your son!

 

[tboyer]

In some places the volunteer companies are alive and well. We were driving through Berks County on 422 last night and there was a chimney fire in an old frame house by the road -- and there had to be at least 5 or 6 companies on the scene -- more vehicles than I could even count. Maybe overkill, but if you're going to have your house catch on fire, that's a good place to be.

 

[Lionsburg]

There’s lots of options for local governments to fund paid firefighters such as the SAFER grant. It will cover the majority of the salary and benefits of a firefighter for 3 years with the caveat that the localities fund the positions after that. Another option available is to pay salaries with money collected from fee for service EMS billing. I’ve personally seen as many as many as 15 firefighter hired in a year span strictly with this fee for service money.

Unfortunately like I mentioned in my previous post, there is a lot of animosity that exists by some of the “old school” volunteer firefighters when it comes to hiring paid staff. I have countless stories of hostile working environments created when you mix paid and unpaid staff in the same station. When someone sees a guy or girl getting paid to do the same job they are doing for free they have heartache. I’m not saying it’s always the case but it happens a lot across the country.

I could talk for days in this subject. Combination systems are equally the best thing and the worst thing to ever happen to the fire service.

 

[PennStateNate]

Pa mandatory 180+ hours of training that includes some of the dumbest crap has a lot to do with it. Like history of the fire service. Yeah there is a whole module set towards that. Your training should be suppression, hose roles, rescue, and SCBA with a burn at the end.

Add the fact the younger generation is getting more family oriented and working 3-11 and in some cases a second job.

 

[mean15]

Pa mandatory 180+ hours of training that includes some of the dumbest crap has a lot to do with it. Like history of the fire service. Yeah there is a whole module set towards that. Your training should be suppression, hose roles, rescue, and SCBA with a burn at the end.

Add the fact the younger generation is getting more family oriented and working 3-11 and in some cases a second job.

Pennsylvania has no mandatory training.
Some outfits you can literally join on Monday and ride firetrucks on Tuesday.

Thankfully, most FD's have their own mandatory standards.

 

[mean15]

Pa mandatory 180+ hours of training that includes some of the dumbest crap has a lot to do with it. Like history of the fire service. Yeah there is a whole module set towards that. Your training should be suppression, hose roles, rescue, and SCBA with a burn at the end.

Add the fact the younger generation is getting more family oriented and working 3-11 and in some cases a second job.

Pennsylvania has no mandatory training standards. Some departments you can literally join on Monday and ride firetrucks on Tuesday.

Thankfully, most departments have their own local level standards in place. The 180 hours you mentioned is what my department goes by, as well as nationally registered ProBoard certs.

 

[Whaaaaaaaany]

Another option available is to pay salaries with money collected from fee for service EMS billing. I’ve personally seen as many as many as 15 firefighter hired in a year span strictly with this fee for service money.

That might work in the big city where there is some big call volume but it won't work in the majority of the state. About 14 months ago the ambulance service in my township (And you can see downtown pittsburgh from parts of it) was relieved of it's contract with the township because they were lax in responding to calls...why were they lax? because they were running NETS all day long to generate cash flow to keep the doors open). The township then partnered with another ambulance service in a neighboring township. This ambulance service now covers two townships and a borough. Last year just my township paid them over $500,000 for the service (and the others pay as well)....it wasn't enough, they needed more money from each municipality to make ends meet (they asked for over $100,000 more from mine). So, if there isn't enough call volume this close to a major city (covering probably 40,000+ residents) to cover operating expenses through call $$$ I can't see how rural PA can come up with that money through call revenue.

 

[PennStateNate]

Pennsylvania has no mandatory training standards. Some departments you can literally join on Monday and ride firetrucks on Tuesday.

Thankfully, most departments have their own local level standards in place. The 180 hours you mentioned is what my department goes by, as well as nationally registered ProBoard certs.

We have to take essentials. It’s a 180 hour course. I know you have like a 12-15 month window to take it. If you don’t. You are gone as a FF.

 

[PennStateNate]

True. Money grows on trees in 2019 as opposed to the past when small municipalities didn't have the budgets for a professional staff.

I don’t know if it’s that simple. A lot of small towns are cutting their police force. Don’t know if they have the means to pay their fire dept.

 

[PennStateNate]

A year or two ago Pa passed a law where local volunteer firefighters and EMS people could be exempt from certain real estate taxes. This was done to try to help recruit volunteers.

This is a thing I’m shocked hasn’t taken on more talk. I hear law makers and legislators local, state, and federally say how they are concern about the falling numbers. They could easily give tax breaks on federal, state, local taxes, student loan breaks..

 

[heckmans]

I don’t know if it’s that simple. A lot of small towns are cutting their police force. Don’t know if they have the means to pay their fire dept.

To be clear, my post was was completely sarcastic.

 

[denniskembala]

Again, things may have been different when you were growing up, it’s not the current reality in the rural areas near me.



I’m happy that your dept is run in a more professional way than those in my locale. I never said I don’t appreciate what you all do, just sharing my perspective from experiences with the local crews.

That tool from the Amish "Mafia" , "Lebanon Levi" was a volunteer fireman in East Lamppeter, I believe.

 

[kgilbert78]

He did end up in the emergency room once after a call. He rescued a dog which bit him through his glove. Would you believe it was a chiwauwa (sp?).

I have NO trouble believing that. Small dogs can be really nasty.

 

[Alphalion75]

I saw this on the TV news this morning so I cannot provide a link.

No. of volunteer fire fighters...
1970s 300,000
2000 60,000
2018 38,000

It's deemed a public safety crisis because 90% of fire depts. in PA are volunteer. Moreover, most volunteers are over 40 years of age.

I applaud my old home town of 2,000 people for hanging onto its VFD, albeit its not without challenges.

I commend those volunteers. Here in Georgia all the firemen are full time positions.

 

[glidresquirrel]

I commend those volunteers. Here in Georgia all the firemen are full time positions.

Really? Even out in the really rural areas?

 

[LemonEars]

Lack of people willing to volunteer isn't a problem just limited to firefighters. Just try to get someone to serve in a church office. Try to find someone to volunteer to coach youth baseball unless his or her kid is on the team. Try to find someone to serve on the local zoning board. Try to find a new boy scout troop leader. Try to find someone to take an elderly sick neighbor to a weekly doctor's appointment. People want to stay in their own little bubble and not extend themselves to serve others. It is the new norm for our society and very different from the way our society was say 40 years ago.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

Lack of people willing to volunteer isn't a problem just limited to firefighters. Just try to get someone to serve in a church office. Try to find someone to volunteer to coach youth baseball unless his or her kid is on the team. Try to find someone to serve on the local zoning board. Try to find a new boy scout troop leader. Try to find someone to take an elderly sick neighbor to a weekly doctor's appointment. People want to stay in their own little bubble and not extend themselves to serve others. It is the new norm for our society and very different from the way our society was say 40 years ago.

If these services have a value, they'll be paid for.