OT: The decline of PA Volunteer Fire Fighters

[LemonEars]

If these services have a value, they'll be paid for.

Yep. I think you explained why we can't get volunteers for nearly any position in any organization. Everyone expects to be paid to do anything. People don't recognize that there is joy in helping others free of charge. Service to others without being paid used to be a normal part of life whether you were in the fire company, a boy scout leader, an usher at church, or just helping an elderly neighbor. We have become a self-centered narcissistic society. That's why fire companies and nearly every other organization is in trouble and can't get volunteers.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Lack of people willing to volunteer isn't a problem just limited to firefighters. Just try to get someone to serve in a church office. Try to find someone to volunteer to coach youth baseball unless his or her kid is on the team. Try to find someone to serve on the local zoning board. Try to find a new boy scout troop leader. Try to find someone to take an elderly sick neighbor to a weekly doctor's appointment. People want to stay in their own little bubble and not extend themselves to serve others. It is the new norm for our society and very different from the way our society was say 40 years ago.

Totally agree. It's a problem that transcends firefighting.

Local clubs (Elks, Moose, Rotary, etc.) are also dying on the vine because so few from younger generations are joining.

 

[LemonEars]

Totally agree. It's a problem that transcends firefighting.

Local clubs (Elks, Moose, Rotary, etc.) are also dying on the vine because so few from younger generations are joining.

Not only are fewer young people joining organizations but the ones who join want to have the benefits of the organization without serving. I belong to one organization where nearly all the "workers" are over 65 years old. Young people "don't have time" to serve. Twenty years from now when these types of organizations no longer exist people are going to realize that our society has lost something of great value.

 

[Roar More]

Working with other people's children is fraught with danger nowadays.

 

[Whaaaaaaaany]

That tool from the Amish "Mafia" , "Lebanon Levi" was a volunteer fireman in East Lamppeter, I believe.

Neptune Fire Company #1, Richland Boro, Lebanon County

 

[LemonEars]

Working with other people's children is fraught with danger nowadays.

Very true. And it is also dangerous for a man to work in vicinity of a woman. I wonder how much money hungry scum bag lawyers have to do with the decline in people willing to be firefighters or to serve as volunteers in any organization. That might not be the main reason but I bet it contributes.

 

[PS4814]

Not only are fewer young people joining organizations but the ones who join want to have the benefits of the organization without serving. I belong to one organization where nearly all the "workers" are over 65 years old. Young people "don't have time" to serve. Twenty years from now when these types of organizations no longer exist people are going to realize that our society has lost something of great value.

Maybe those 65 year old “workers” shouldn’t have led us into an economy where by wages have been stagnant for over a decade, college tuition costs have skyrocketed, and housing prices have put the idea of homeownership and out of the reach of many well into their 30’s. But no, let’s keep blaming the entitled youth who were given participation trophies while ignoring the fact that the parents who were giving the trophies are the same 65 year old “workers” to whom you’re referring.

 

[glidresquirrel]

Very true. And it is also dangerous for a man to work in vicinity of a woman. I wonder how much money hungry scum bag lawyers have to do with the decline in people willing to be firefighters or to serve as volunteers in any organization. That might not be the main reason but I bet it contributes.

Ask Lafayette Bear I am sure he knows

 

[glidresquirrel]

Maybe those 65 year old “workers” shouldn’t have led us into an economy where by wages have been stagnant for over a decade, college tuition costs have skyrocketed, and housing prices have put the idea of homeownership and out of the reach of many well into their 30’s. But no, let’s keep blaming the entitled youth who were given participation trophies while ignoring the fact that the parents who were giving the trophies are the same 65 year old “workers” to whom you’re referring.

I sense anger.

 

[LemonEars]

Maybe those 65 year old “workers” shouldn’t have led us into an economy where by wages have been stagnant for over a decade, college tuition costs have skyrocketed, and housing prices have put the idea of homeownership and out of the reach of many well into their 30’s. But no, let’s keep blaming the entitled youth who were given participation trophies while ignoring the fact that the parents who were giving the trophies are the same 65 year old “workers” to whom you’re referring.

Yes, life is tough and complex. Do you think it wasn't tough during WW2? Do you think it wasn't tough during the Vietnam War? Do you think it wasn't tough during the Depression? Do you think it wasn't tough during the unrest and assassinations of the 60s? I could go on and on. Every generation has its issues to deal with.
Years ago nobody even thought about home ownership until at least 20% was saved for a down payment. This was usually when you were 30 - 40 years old. Many families accepted that they would never own even a modest home and rented their whole lives without whining about it.
Back 40 years ago if you wanted to go to college there were a number of ways to do it: have rich parents who paid the bill, get a job and save money for 3-4 years and then attend (maybe part time at night), join the military, serve a tour, avoid getting killed in Vietnam, and then take advantage of the GI Bill, or get straight A's and have nearly perfect SAT scores and get scholarship money. Most people back then didn't go to college. Only those who were high academic achievers thought about going to college.
I would suggest that young people have it better now than those in past generations. Anyway, this isn't a good reason not to volunteer to serve others.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

We don't ask police, garbage, public works, etc to work for free. Why do we, in this one area, expect an entirely volunteer fire department to work?

It's a lucky accident that it worked so well for so long, but the concept is pretty kooky.

 

[LemonEars]

We don't ask police, garbage, public works, etc to work for free. Why do we, in this one area, expect an entirely volunteer fire department to work?

It's a lucky accident that it worked so well for so long, but the concept is pretty kooky.

Most city fire departments are paid because they have many calls per month. In rural areas the fire departments make just a few calls per month. It doesn't make any sense to pay people a living wage to sit there and do nothing 99% of the time. Historically, the benefit of joining a volunteer fire department is the camaraderie of being in a group of like minded people serving their neighbors. It seems like the sense of camaraderie is no longer valued by many.

 

[NatLion]

Most city fire departments are paid because they have many calls per month. In rural areas the fire departments make just a few calls per month. It doesn't make any sense to pay people a living wage to sit there and do nothing 99% of the time. Historically, the benefit of joining a volunteer fire department is the camaraderie of being in a group of like minded people serving their neighbors. It seems like the sense of camaraderie is no longer valued by many.

Why would anyone think they would be full-time jobs??? Payments are for being on-call, training and expenses. Part-time (almost never-time) and on call. These are not full-time jobs and would no be paid like full-time jobs. You are paying people a small stipend to volunteer, and paying their expenses.

 

[LemonEars]

Why would anyone think they would be full-time jobs??? Payments are for being on-call, training and expenses. Part-time (almost never-time) and on call. These are not full-time jobs and would no be paid like full-time jobs. You are paying people a small stipend to volunteer, and paying their expenses.

OK. That makes sense. Do you think you will find people to agree to be on call full time for a few bucks a month? Could be a problem.

 

[aquapong]

The volunteer system is unsuitable for today’s fire service. There’s far too many training requirements and too much liability to have out of shape yokels winging it on calls. Yes, there are exceptions, but many depts are that way. Ems is in the same boat. They are more often paid, but paid poorly.

They need to have paid fire departments that do Ems as well. There’s plenty of wasted spending at the state level to cover it.

 

[NatLion]

OK. That makes sense. Do you think you will find people to agree to be on call full time for a few bucks a month? Could be a problem.

Well, they are on call now for free, so yes. How much is a few bucks? $100/month? $200? At some price point, you find a fully staffed group of paid volunteers.

The biggest hurdle is not the monthly stipend, it is find the money for the training -- both initial and ongoing. Communities get what they pay for...

 

[LemonEars]

Well, they are on call now for free, so yes. How much is a few bucks? $100/month? $200? At some price point, you find a fully staffed group of paid volunteers.

The biggest hurdle is not the monthly stipend, it is find the money for the training -- both initial and ongoing. Communities get what they pay for...

Is the training really worth the cost or is this another example of the government sticking their nose into something that is none of their business? Volunteer fire departments have been in place for centuries without government meddling. The first volunteer fire department was started by none other than Ben Franklin in 1752. Why all of a sudden do we need costly training programs?

 

[Lionsburg]

Is the training really worth the cost or is this another example of the government sticking their nose into something that is none of their business? Volunteer fire departments have been in place for centuries without government meddling. The first volunteer fire department was started by none other than Ben Franklin in 1752. Why all of a sudden do we need costly training programs?

I hope you’re being sarcastic about not needing training programs for the fire service. I have been doing it as my career for 15 years and volunteered at a busy department for 10 years prior to that and training is a huge part of my job. In fact, it is required that a train in some capacity every single day I go to work.

Firefighting is so much different these days than it was years ago thanks in large part to the way we build houses. Cheap materials thrown together by builders who are only it to make a quick buck is a recipe for disaster for firefighters. We constantly have to learn and evolve our strategies and tactics when dealing with fires in these cookie cutter houses. I hosnestly don’t see how someone could possibly have the time to learn everything they need to know as a volunteer unless they either don’t have a full time job or they work in a career department elsewhere and volunteer on their off days.

I always equate it to this- I would never in a million years be able to walk into a lawyers or doctors office and volunteer to do their job and expect to be proficient at it because I drop by a few days a week and have them give me a little training.

At the end of the day when it’s a matter of life or death for me as well as the citzens, I want the guy who trains every day having my back as opposed to the guy who does it occasionally for a hobby.

Again, not disparaging anyone who volunteers, just stating my opinions. When it comes to the safety and well-being of your friends and family I think most everyone would agree with me!

 

[LemonEars]

I hope you’re being sarcastic about not needing training programs for the fire service. I have been doing it as my career for 15 years and volunteered at a busy department for 10 years prior to that and training is a huge part of my job. In fact, it is required that a train in some capacity every single day I go to work.

Firefighting is so much different these days than it was years ago thanks in large part to the way we build houses. Cheap materials thrown together by builders who are only it to make a quick buck is a recipe for disaster for firefighters. We constantly have to learn and evolve our strategies and tactics when dealing with fires in these cookie cutter houses. I hosnestly don’t see how someone could possibly have the time to learn everything they need to know as a volunteer unless they either don’t have a full time job or they work in a career department elsewhere and volunteer on their off days.

I always equate it to this- I would never in a million years be able to walk into a lawyers or doctors office and volunteer to do their job and expect to be proficient at it because I drop by a few days a week and have them give me a little training.

At the end of the day when it’s a matter of life or death for me as well as the citzens, I want the guy who trains every day having my back as opposed to the guy who does it occasionally for a hobby.

Again, not disparaging anyone who volunteers, just stating my opinions. When it comes to the safety and well-being of your friends and family I think most everyone would agree with me!

I'm certainly not minimizing the importance of fire fighter training. I know it is important. I was involved with a fire company about 40 years ago when I lived in a rural area. My brother-in-law is now an officer in that volunteer fire company. There is training but it is mostly mentoring of the younger members by the senior members. I recognize that that training is probably not as thorough as the formal training that professional full time fire fighters receive. Thus, volunteer fire fighters are not as skilled as professional fire fighters. The issue, of course, is cost. Small rural towns with a population of say 500 people can't afford a professional full time trained fire company to fight 2 fires a year. If a group of rural towns band together to establish one fire company then the fire house will be too far away from many areas. It is a dilemma. I don't have the solution but I'm certain that a town of 500 people can't afford a 10 person permanently staffed well trained fire company. Also, saying that the state should pay for a professional fire company to be established in thousands of small rural Pennsylvania towns isn't a viable solution. Cost matters.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

I hope you’re being sarcastic about not needing training programs for the fire service. I have been doing it as my career for 15 years and volunteered at a busy department for 10 years prior to that and training is a huge part of my job. In fact, it is required that a train in some capacity every single day I go to work.

Firefighting is so much different these days than it was years ago thanks in large part to the way we build houses. Cheap materials thrown together by builders who are only it to make a quick buck is a recipe for disaster for firefighters. We constantly have to learn and evolve our strategies and tactics when dealing with fires in these cookie cutter houses. I hosnestly don’t see how someone could possibly have the time to learn everything they need to know as a volunteer unless they either don’t have a full time job or they work in a career department elsewhere and volunteer on their off days.

I always equate it to this- I would never in a million years be able to walk into a lawyers or doctors office and volunteer to do their job and expect to be proficient at it because I drop by a few days a week and have them give me a little training.

At the end of the day when it’s a matter of life or death for me as well as the citzens, I want the guy who trains every day having my back as opposed to the guy who does it occasionally for a hobby.

Again, not disparaging anyone who volunteers, just stating my opinions. When it comes to the safety and well-being of your friends and family I think most everyone would agree with me!

I don't understand the history of why anyone ever thought volunteer fire departments were a good idea. There's a measurable value, unlike many jobs, particularly in governmnet.

I can understand "volunteer" as in the military - there's no call to conscript people. If X fighters are needed to save Y amount of property and $Z worth of human life, then they could be paid (Y+Z)/X, and should. We're mostly getting a free ride.

And these jobs are not unskilled, but don't require college. They'd offer at least supplemental income to about a million people.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

I'm certainly not minimizing the importance of fire fighter training. I know it is important. I was involved with a fire company about 40 years ago when I lived in a rural area. My brother-in-law is now an officer in that volunteer fire company. There is training but it is mostly mentoring of the younger members by the senior members. I recognize that that training is probably not as thorough as the formal training that professional full time fire fighters receive. Thus, volunteer fire fighters are not as skilled as professional fire fighters. The issue, of course, is cost. Small rural towns with a population of say 500 people can't afford a professional full time trained fire company to fight 2 fires a year. If a group of rural towns band together to establish one fire company then the fire house will be too far away from many areas. It is a dilemma. I don't have the solution but I'm certain that a town of 500 people can't afford a 10 person permanently staffed well trained fire company. Also, saying that the state should pay for a professional fire company to be established in thousands of small rural Pennsylvania towns isn't a viable solution. Cost matters.

If the rural town of 500 can't support an FD, perhaps they shouldn't be an ongoing, existing town.

The same logic applies to roads, medical, internet service, food service, carpenters, plumbers, etc.... No one asks the workers in those fields to work for free.

As for towns banding together, they can CERTAINLY band together for training.

And the other solution is to have a regional company that can't get to many fires quickly enough to save the first location, but in time to stop spreading. The region would have to accept the risk of losing a few buildings each year, and they'd pay anyway due to higher insurance costs, and lower resale value. It's just people asking for a free ride that can't go on forever.

 

[Parkland Fan]

If the rural town of 500 can't support an FD, perhaps they shouldn't be an ongoing, existing town.

The same logic applies to roads, medical, internet service, food service, carpenters, plumbers, etc.... No one asks the workers in those fields to work for free.

As for towns banding together, they can CERTAINLY band together for training.

And the other solution is to have a regional company that can't get to many fires quickly enough to save the first location, but in time to stop spreading. The region would have to accept the risk of losing a few buildings each year, and they'd pay anyway due to higher insurance costs, and lower resale value. It's just people asking for a free ride that can't go on forever.

I am a parent of a volunteer firefighter. Several posters here have cited fires as if that is the only part of the responsibility. In the Allentown suburbs, State College and Pittsburgh outskirts where he has volunteered, there are numerous calls to respond to traffic accidents. I know that my son has responded to accidents with dismemberments and fatalities. There have even been some water rescues. The traffic accident scenes require a great deal of training, especially when a victim has to be freed from the wreckage.

 

[Lionsburg]

I know funding is always an issue but there are some solutions as I pointed out in a previous post. Like the poster above said, nobody asks teachers or court employees or trash collectors to work for their county for free so why should they expect people that do a dangerous job like fighting fire and saving lives to do it for free?

The county where I live in Virginia recently passed a resolution to combine the paid fire department with the volunteer fire department into one organization. This would provide a singular leadership sector, a unified chain of command, standardized training for everyone and make funds for equipment more readily available. Perfect situation, right? Well the volunteer leadership got together and are raising holy hell. They are dead-set against this notion. Their reasoning? They don’t want to have to answer to the career fire chief. They would finally be held accountable for the way they spent their money and how they run their departments. They would no longer be allowed to treat the fire house like a frat house. They were presented with a great solution to a major problem and they are letting their egos get in the way.

 

[glidresquirrel]

I think some of us are talking about different kinds of volunteer departments. Yes, I would think suburbs of Pittsburgh should have staff. I live in a township that really doesn't have a town persay , 2 small 4 way stops maybe 25-30 people each and farm country. I said earlier our volunteers are basically farmers which allows them to respond more easily than some jobs. A couple man the big trucks and the rest show up in their pick ups. There isn't really any kind of manufacturing within the township to deal with hazardous chemicals and the . Our township assessor lives next to the one station and he is the chief . It works. Granted the farmers around here are also a tight knit group anyway which helps. We also have a good sized town next township over,same county that is staffed and respond when needed for more help. This is Indiana not PA so I am sure some things are different

 

[LemonEars]

If the rural town of 500 can't support an FD, perhaps they shouldn't be an ongoing, existing town.

The same logic applies to roads, medical, internet service, food service, carpenters, plumbers, etc.... No one asks the workers in those fields to work for free.

As for towns banding together, they can CERTAINLY band together for training.

And the other solution is to have a regional company that can't get to many fires quickly enough to save the first location, but in time to stop spreading. The region would have to accept the risk of losing a few buildings each year, and they'd pay anyway due to higher insurance costs, and lower resale value. It's just people asking for a free ride that can't go on forever.

You clearly know more about this than I do so I accept what you say.

 

[glidresquirrel]

You clearly know more about this than I do so I accept what you say.

Yes, best plan would be disband the town and make them homeless

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Aren't most fires caused by bored volunteer fire fighters who want something to do? As the number of volunteers declines, what is happening to the number of fires?

What a stupid comment. Considering the source, I don’t know why I’m surprised.