OT: WGYM head coach fired

[Evan Ceg]

Penn State announced today that its women's gymnastics head coach, Jeff Thompson, has been relieved of his duties, effective immediately. The two assistants will co-coach through the end of the season. No explanation given in the press release (and none should be expected).

Thompson and his wife Rachelle, associate head coach, were the center of a firestorm in late spring over allegations of emotional and physical (related to injuries) abuse of squad members. ICA investigated and concluded that while some squad members and alums were highly critical of the Thompsons' coaching methods (and others strongly defended the Thompsons), the findings did not rise to the level of abuse. Nevertheless, Rachelle Thompson stepped down last spring.

Thompson, in his seventh year, had a fair amount of success but never won a B1G championship and this year's squad, despite having everyone back from last season, is not ranked in the Top 25.

FYI, the women's hockey coach, Josh Brandwene, was also involved in emotional abuse allegations around the same time last spring. Brandwene stepped away from the job a couple weeks ago for "family medical reasons," which may be entirely legitimate for all I know, but has yet to return to the bench.

 

[Cletus11]

The line between coaches being 'hard' on their team and crossing the line to 'abuse' is really, really gray and blurry right now in sports. Indiana football head coach fired for something similiar. Essentially sounds now like if you can get 3-4 former or current players to claim emotional abuse, that is grounds for being fired.

 

[LionDeNittany]

The line between coaches being 'hard' on their team and crossing the line to 'abuse' is really, really gray and blurry right now in sports. Indiana football head coach fired for something similiar. Essentially sounds now like if you can get 3-4 former or current players to claim emotional abuse, that is grounds for being fired.

Wait til the litigation starts and these kids start winning lawsuits. It's going to get a whole lot worse.

LdN

 

[Fairfax Lion]

Thank goodness, Bobby Knight is retired!!! He wouldn't last a nano-second in today's environment.

 

[MtNittany]

I'd like to think he was fired for not fielding a top 25 squad (when there is no excuse not to). But I'm not that stupid.

 

[Raffycorn]

I can't fault this decision. The allegations against both Thompsons were not reflective of what Penn State is all about. If you don't uphold the high standard of representing this University in how you treat the athletes in your care, you shouldn't be here any longer. I hope the next coach understands that a lot better than the Thompsons did.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

There is no fine line. That's moronspeak. Great coaching is teaching. Abuse is not.

 

[medixman]

Give everyone a trophy!

 

[91Joe95]

I can't fault this decision. The allegations against both Thompsons were not reflective of what Penn State is all about. If you don't uphold the high standard of representing this University in how you treat the athletes in your care, you shouldn't be here any longer. I hope the next coach understands that a lot better than the Thompsons did.

Yeah, that's what Penn State is about.

 

[MtNittany]

Yeah, that's what Penn State is about.

No s**t. Raffy is another Walking University Bidet.

 

[kgilbert78]

There is no fine line. That's moronspeak. Great coaching is teaching. Abuse is not.

I will say that that line has moved in the last few decades though. Realize that to some kids these days saying "no" to them is "abuse". Mind you, with one exception, I tried never to yell *at* the kids I was coaching. The exception was when they were picking on a teammate--who admittedly should not have been trying to play as he lacked some/many basic motor skills (I was sympathetic to the kid, as I was notoriously clumsy as a kid and even as an adult player, but he made me look like Pele)--but we were in an "all kids play league". They got read the riot act by my fellow coach and I. I do not put up with bullying.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

I will say that that line has moved in the last few decades though. Realize that to some kids these days saying "no" to them is "abuse". Mind you, with one exception, I tried never to yell *at* the kids I was coaching. The exception was when they were picking on a teammate--who admittedly should not have been trying to play as he lacked some/many basic motor skills (I was sympathetic to the kid, as I was notoriously clumsy as a kid and even as an adult player, but he made me look like Pele)--but we were in an "all kids play league". They got read the riot act by my fellow coach and I. I do not put up with bullying.

If a kid doesn't want to play.... let someone who wants to play do it..... that was my coaching methodology. You teach skills.... to those that can learn them and want to learn them.... no one can abuse a kid into being a player..... People that want the attention without the passion.... there is always a good spot on the bench for them.... picking on less gifted teammates.... ya.... off with their friggin heads.

 

[Royal_Coaster]

I'm not familiar with the situation, but another way to look at it is teams that get coddled and don't get pushed by their coach out of fear of being accused of abuse don't have the discipline or drive it takes to make the Top 25.

 

[manatree]

People always like to espouse that sports teach real life lessons, which I agree that they do. However, I've never understood why many people accept behaviour from coaches that would never be accepted in any other real world scenario.

 

[UncleLar]

People always like to espouse that sports teach real life lessons, which I agree that they do. However, I've never understood why many people accept behaviour from coaches that would never be accepted in any other real world scenario.

I couldn't agree more with you. Makes no sense at all.

 

[Royal_Coaster]

People always like to espouse that sports teach real life lessons, which I agree that they do. However, I've never understood why many people accept behaviour from coaches that would never be accepted in any other real world scenario.

What exactly is emotional abuse? Can you give any concrete examples in the case of the coaches being discussed?

 

[BlueBand]

What exactly is emotional abuse? Can you give any concrete examples in the case of the coaches being discussed?

It was all laid out last year at the time. Look up the posts or news articles.

 

[Royal_Coaster]

It was all laid out last year at the time. Look up the posts or news articles.

Looked up the women's hockey story. All I saw was mentions of mind games, playing favorites, benching players for no good reason, telling one player she should be glad she was playing at Penn State and not a D-3 school. They did go to a (female) assistant AD to complain where they all got hugs and were told they were exactly the type of athlete Penn State is looking for.

So where's the real abuse? And someone above posted that stuff like this doesn't happen in the real world? Ha! It's happens like that and to the -nth degree in the real world. Based on the collegian article, which tries its best to take the athletes' side, it sounds more like the girls were told they were special stars all the way through high school, and have problems dealing with the idea that they're no longer the biggest fish in the pond.

 

[medixman]

I have a little better perspective on this subject than most on here because I was head coach in the Wpial for 35 years.I've witnessed the changing of the times in athletics and this country.Because of changing attitudes I'm really worried about my kids and grandkids in the future!!!!Give them all a trophy and tell them how good they are!

 

[BlueBand]

Looked up the women's hockey story. All I saw was mentions of mind games, playing favorites, benching players for no good reason, telling one player she should be glad she was playing at Penn State and not a D-3 school. They did go to a (female) assistant AD to complain where they all got hugs and were told they were exactly the type of athlete Penn State is looking for.

So where's the real abuse? And someone above posted that stuff like this doesn't happen in the real world? Ha! It's happens like that and to the -nth degree in the real world. Based on the collegian article, which tries its best to take the athletes' side, it sounds more like the girls were told they were special stars all the way through high school, and have problems dealing with the idea that they're no longer the biggest fish in the pond.

Perhaps. You should read up on the Gymnastics situation. It was far more egregious, IMHO.

 

[psu00]

What exactly is emotional abuse? Can you give any concrete examples in the case of the coaches being discussed?

It's tough to get the full details and context in the articles sometimes to see what's a legit complaint and what's a little bit of drama (especially from the Collegian writer). I'm sure there's both.

From what I recall the more serious stuff was alleged by a former player at Auburn (where these 2 coached for a decade before PSU). Stuff like getting multiple players on adderall to get them to lose weight and putting them on birth control to get them all on the same period schedule for training purposes.

The push to train through injuries claim needs context. What did the docs or trainers say? If they were pushing against medical advice then there's no excuse.

The claims about gymnasts needing to lose weight- there's not a program in the country where that hasn't been said. Hell, even during the olympics with these 15 year old twigs competing they will often talk about needing to watch their weight or lose weight in training.

It's alleged the coaches were overbearing in training- continually aggressively pushing gymnasts to the limit, wanting them to train through pain, occasionally saying inappropriate things (allegedly asking 1 gymnast how many people she slept with), and saying things like you can be replaced/ lose your scholarship.

Supposedly there were multiple meetings with Julie del Giorno (athletics 'integrity monitor'), an assistant AD (?) Green, and emails to Barbour. Green apparently told 1 gymnast she looked into her complaints and didn't see anything that rose to an 'offense' level (paraphrasing).

 

[BlueBand]

Looked up the women's hockey story. All I saw was mentions of mind games, playing favorites, benching players for no good reason, telling one player she should be glad she was playing at Penn State and not a D-3 school. They did go to a (female) assistant AD to complain where they all got hugs and were told they were exactly the type of athlete Penn State is looking for.

So where's the real abuse? And someone above posted that stuff like this doesn't happen in the real world? Ha! It's happens like that and to the -nth degree in the real world. Based on the collegian article, which tries its best to take the athletes' side, it sounds more like the girls were told they were special stars all the way through high school, and have problems dealing with the idea that they're no longer the biggest fish in the pond.

I don't know if you read this article, or the one before this one. This one makes it sound more like he's just a bad coach... if you're going to bench people, they need to know why in order to improve.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/features/article_00a76194-f22e-11e5-aaef-a7e738940165.html

I once worked for someone who was extremely manipulative and demeaning, no matter what you did. It was pure hell. I've had some great bosses that were mentors and teachers, and bad bosses, but this one was on a whole other level. She could get you all twisted up so you didn't know what happened, and you literally couldn't defend yourself. But the minute you walked out of the office, you were like, wait a minute... and thought of all the things you could have said. I never fully understood how she did what she did, but she had a reputation. I stuck it out 3 years, because I try to learn and make it work. Most of the people who worked for her never made it to a year. It was like a revolving door. HR knew, but she delivered her numbers and was "in" with upper management and corporate. So, when I hear mind games, I get that there are ones that push you to do more than you think you can, and ones that are totally ineffective and counterproductive. Maybe he falls in the latter.

 

[BlueBand]

Supposedly there were multiple meetings with Julie del Giorno (athletics 'integrity monitor'), an assistant AD (?) Green, and emails to Barbour. Green apparently told 1 gymnast she looked into her complaints and didn't see anything that rose to an 'offense' level (paraphrasing).

Green was involved with both situations. Unless they were absolutely forced to, Penn State wasn't going to clean house last year when all the publicity was happening. I said at the time, wait a year and see what happens. These coaches were probably put on a very short leash and were being watched closely, or told they had about a year to find another position or be fired. Brandwene is on leave still, gym coach fired (assistant fired last year). Coincidence?

If Green takes another position shortly, or is let go, you can really read between the lines at that point.

 

[MtNittany]

I once worked for someone who was extremely manipulative and demeaning, no matter what you did. It was pure hell.

Wow...I used to think "pure hell" would be watching your family being beheaded in the middle east, or holding your cancer ridden child as he takes his last breath.

But then I was like, BlueBand's fight is real. You are a true warrior man!

 

[psu00]

I have a little better perspective on this subject than most on here because I was head coach in the Wpial for 35 years.I've witnessed the changing of the times in athletics and this country.Because of changing attitudes I'm really worried about my kids and grandkids in the future!!!!Give them all a trophy and tell them how good they are!

To be honest I did get the feel like there were some real issues here......but it was sometimes tough to get the full picture/ context of the charges. The adderall, training against medical advice and some inappropriate comments were over the line and needed to be seriously looked into.

Some of the other complaints were tough to really tell either way because of the drama by the Collegian writer which made me question the author's credibility and accurateness in that story.

A few other complaints made me wonder if there was a serious difference between male and female athlete training. Some on the PSU women's gymnastics team appear they would never handle being coached by a Bob Knight, or Nick Saban.

You've coached gymnastics for 35 years- do you see a big difference between male/ female attitudes in training? How have things changed (for better or worse) over your 35 years?

 

[psu00]

Green was involved with both situations. Unless they were absolutely forced to, Penn State wasn't going to clean house last year when all the publicity was happening. I said at the time, wait a year and see what happens. These coaches were probably put on a very short leash and were being watched closely, or told they had about a year to find another position or be fired. Brandwene is on leave still, gym coach fired (assistant fired last year). Coincidence?

If Green takes another position shortly, or is let go, you can really read between the lines at that point.

Maybe but Del Giorno and Barbour were directly in the loop too. I wouldn't blame this all on Green and let those 2 off the hook. This is what del Giorno was (supposedly) specifically brought in for.

 

[step.eng69]

Thank goodness, Bobby Knight is retired!!! He wouldn't last a nano-second in today's environment.

But I sure do miss him, he was a barrel of enjoyment filled to the brim.

 

[manatree]

So where's the real abuse? And someone above posted that stuff like this doesn't happen in the real world? Ha! It's happens like that and to the -nth degree in the real world.

First, grab a dictionary and compare and contrast the definitions of to accept and to happen.

Second, it appears that you want to haggle over what constitutes abuse. I don't. My post was strictly about acceptable behavior. Coaches often say that they are teachers, teaching life skills. So I ask you, if an English teacher were to repeatedly ask a student about about their sex life, is that acceptable? That's just of one of the allegations that came to mind.

This isn't about giving everybody a trophy. It's about treating athletes like human beings.

 

[kgilbert78]

Green was involved with both situations. Unless they were absolutely forced to, Penn State wasn't going to clean house last year when all the publicity was happening. I said at the time, wait a year and see what happens. These coaches were probably put on a very short leash and were being watched closely, or told they had about a year to find another position or be fired. Brandwene is on leave still, gym coach fired (assistant fired last year). Coincidence?

If Green takes another position shortly, or is let go, you can really read between the lines at that point.

I have a feeling that the publicity surrounding the MSU situation may have cause the administration to make this move. I am not at all implying that what is happening at MSU has anything to do with PSU--excepting that they both deal with women's gymnastics, tho it's highly likely that the PSU staff knew Nassar--may have even worked with him--as minor sports tend to be a small community where everyone knows everyone. But our "friends" in the press might try to make that implication--and the administration may well have figured why take the chance?

 

[BlueBand]

Maybe but Del Giorno and Barbour were directly in the loop too. I wouldn't blame this all on Green and let those 2 off the hook. This is what del Giorno was (supposedly) specifically brought in for.

I'm not clear when they were brought into the loop. I got the impression last year that Green didn't loop them in right away, and then the complaints escalated upstairs. But I don't know that for sure. I just remember at the time having that impression.

 

[lyndj]

What exactly is emotional abuse? Can you give any concrete examples in the case of the coaches being discussed?

Coaches were verbally and mentally abusive. When your upperclassmen have all quit the team save for one or two gymnasts, something is very wrong. The wife, who was fired seemed far more intense than the husband. But I suspect his hat the firing is more due to a lack of improvement. This team should be a perennial top 25 team, they just haven't reached that next level. They need a coach who can get them there because the gymnasts are talented. I just attended the OSU/PSU double dual with men and women's gymnastics. Talented squad that needs a better head coach.

 

[lyndj]

It's tough to get the full details and context in the articles sometimes to see what's a legit complaint and what's a little bit of drama (especially from the Collegian writer). I'm sure there's both.

From what I recall the more serious stuff was alleged by a former player at Auburn (where these 2 coached for a decade before PSU). Stuff like getting multiple players on adderall to get them to lose weight and putting them on birth control to get them all on the same period schedule for training purposes.

The push to train through injuries claim needs context. What did the docs or trainers say? If they were pushing against medical advice then there's no excuse.

The claims about gymnasts needing to lose weight- there's not a program in the country where that hasn't been said. Hell, even during the olympics with these 15 year old twigs competing they will often talk about needing to watch their weight or lose weight in training.

It's alleged the coaches were overbearing in training- continually aggressively pushing gymnasts to the limit, wanting them to train through pain, occasionally saying inappropriate things (allegedly asking 1 gymnast how many people she slept with), and saying things like you can be replaced/ lose your scholarship.

Supposedly there were multiple meetings with Julie del Giorno (athletics 'integrity monitor'), an assistant AD (?) Green, and emails to Barbour. Green apparently told 1 gymnast she looked into her complaints and didn't see anything that rose to an 'offense' level (paraphrasing).

I've heard complaints for years about the husband/wife coaches or as I was told "they're crazy". I know some like to blame Barbour for every damn thing, but these issues were there before she entered the picture and the paper trail preceded her.

 

[lyndj]

I have a feeling that the publicity surrounding the MSU situation may have cause the administration to make this move. I am not at all implying that what is happening at MSU has anything to do with PSU--excepting that they both deal with women's gymnastics, tho it's highly likely that the PSU staff knew Nassar--may have even worked with him--as minor sports tend to be a small community where everyone knows everyone. But our "friends" in the press might try to make that implication--and the administration may well have figured why take the chance?

The MSU situation could have definitely spearheaded his firing but more so because they wanted to clean house. Not a bad idea at all, plus they need better coaches anyway.

 

[psu00]

I'm not clear when they were brought into the loop. I got the impression last year that Green didn't loop them in right away, and then the complaints escalated upstairs. But I don't know that for sure. I just remember at the time having that impression.

I went back an reread 1 of the articles from when this first became public. It was vague on timeline but did say a mother of 1 of the gymnasts directly emailed Sandy (received no answer) and another gymnast or 2 met del Giorno.

After the past few years I'm much more in tune with the journalistic failures (?laziness?) in getting facts straight so you may be right. It's why I've tried to be careful of jumping fully onto either the 'string them up' or 'overreaction' bandwagons.

 

[medixman]

Let the parents coach their kids because parents know more than the coaches anyway! Trophies for everyone!A parent once asked me "why did you yell at my son?"My answer "because you never yelled at him!"

 

[psu00]

I've heard complaints for years about the husband/wife coaches or as I was told "they're crazy". I know some like to blame Barbour for every damn thing, but these issues were there before she entered the picture and the paper trail preceded her.

I'm not blaming Barbour for anything before her tenure but I think it's fair to look at her actions when she became involved. (I'm not saying she's wrong here but just 'involved'). The coaches were apparently like this at Auburn for 10 years prior to PSU (but it's just become an issue now?). It's just tough to know the bottom line here when a lot of the complaints and details are somewhat vague.

 

[21Guns]

There is something about that entire sport that is just disturbing: It reminds of the Oriental Tiger Moms...just off the charts disturbing.