OT: York golf club owner calls cops on black female members for playing too slow

[LionDeNittany]

Its a good point, LdN. If you legitimately approach a patron and ask for corrective action, what are you supposed to do if they say 'no'? You ask them to leave. If they do not, your only recourse is to call the police. You cannot take matters into your own hands. Reminiscent of the Starbucks issue recently.

Whether right or wrong, it is not a patrons place to open The People's Court in a private location. Or Judge Judy.

Once someone says, if you do not leave this private property I will call the police, you leave.

I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but they can follow-up after the event with whatever attorney ambulance chaser they want.

There seems to be a problem today with patrons not understanding private vs. public property. And, in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest those are your options. Period.

LdN

 

[Glen]

And in another note, the same York newspaper that gave this incident front page coverage also featured another front page story about the ONE student that walked out of Dover High School in support of Parkland High. Missed as front page articles was the two car accident with $100 damage to one fender. The excitement in York County continues unabated.

 

[KnightSlayer]

Whether right or wrong, it is not a patrons place to open The People's Court in a private location. Or Judge Judy.

Once someone says, if you do not leave this private property I will call the police, you leave.

I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but they can follow-up after the event with whatever attorney ambulance chaser they want.

There seems to be a problem today with patrons not understanding private vs. public property. And, in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest those are your options. Period.

LdN

So if you pay for a service and someone unjustly tries to deny you that service, you just tuck tale and go?

 

[fizzyskittles]

That’s what you do to avoid trespassing charges.

 

[BBrown]

That’s what you do to avoid trespassing charges.

Not if I'm a member or paying a fee to play there.

 

[Obliviax]

So if you pay for a service and someone unjustly tries to deny you that service, you just tuck tale and go?

I think you are both right.

If I am at Starbucks and didn't buy anything and they ask me to leave, I leave. But if I don't leave, the store's only recourse is to call the police. They cannot physically remove me or they can be charged/sued.

In this case, the gals are claiming racial bias. I understand that. This is where you are correct. Asking for your money back and moving on isn't good enough. At least the owners of the golf course call the police. I doubt the owners felt they were being racist because asking the police to support your racism is not a winning move.

To me, the crime is the 5-some...that's nuts.

 

[LionDeNittany]

So if you pay for a service and someone unjustly tries to deny you that service, you just tuck tale and go?

That didn't happen. I wouldn't suggest it either.

The police aren't judges. Once it escalates to that level you must leave. That's why we have small claims court. Perhaps you've never heard of it. It is fairly simple to use.

LdN

 

[Obliviax]

Not if I'm a member or paying a fee to play there.

If you are a member, your recourse is to go to the membership board (or whatever their structure is). You can always sue them.

 

[KnightSlayer]

I think you are both right.

If I am at Starbucks and didn't buy anything and they ask me to leave, I leave. But if I don't leave, the store's only recourse is to call the police. They cannot physically remove me or they can be charged/sued.

In this case, the gals are claiming racial bias. I understand that. This is where you are correct. Asking for your money back and moving on isn't good enough. At least the owners of the golf course call the police. I doubt the owners felt they were being racist because asking the police to support your racism is not a winning move.

To me, the crime is the 5-some...that's nuts.

How about complaining about slow play on the 2nd hole?

 

[TenerHallTerror]

So if you pay for a service and someone unjustly tries to deny you that service, you just tuck tale and go?

people seem to forget the ultimate outcome of the airline incident when a passenger was forcibly remove from an airplane for refusing to be bumped off

the owner has a right to remove uncooperative patrons. owner doesn't have a right to fabricate a reason to do so.

 

[fizzyskittles]

Not if I'm a member or paying a fee to play there.

Uhh, yeah you do, that's how it works. Ever hear of security? You disobey club rules or policies, you will be asked to leave. You refuse, they will call the police.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

How about complaining about slow play on the 2nd hole?

Starbucks = 2 minutes to call police. shorter than most Led Zeppelin tunes

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Uhh, yeah you do, thta's how it works. Ever hear of security? You disobey club rules or policies, you will be asked to leave. You refuse, they will call the police.

again you're missing the point that they were arguing (successfully) that they were not disobeying the rules and policies. no more or less than the white guys playing behind them

 

[BBrown]

Uhh, yeah you do, that's how it works. Ever hear of security? You disobey club rules or policies, you will be asked to leave. You refuse, they will call the police.

no what is this "security" you speak of?

 

[fizzyskittles]

again you're missing the point that they were arguing (successfully) that they were not disobeying the rules and policies. no more or less than the white guys playing behind them

Allegedly, the key word is allegedly. You leave and fight your battles later. I do not assume these ladies are automnatically in the right based on what they say.

 

[fizzyskittles]

no what is this "security" you speak of?

It's something that will toss you out in the street if you don't leave when asked.

 

[harbest]

thank God racism and sexism don't exist in this country:

LINK

Instead of being confrontational with the ladies, maybe he should have told them if they hurry up, they might catch a glimpse of Denzel Washington playing in the group ahead of them. You draw more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

 

[BBrown]

Instead of being confrontational with the ladies, maybe he should have told them if they hurry up, they might catch a glimpse of Denzel Washington playing in the group ahead of them. You draw more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

or, depending on their age, Chadwick Boseman and or Michael B. Jordan.

 

[Obliviax]

How about complaining about slow play on the 2nd hole?

Slow play is slow play. a five-some will have slow play. It may have been a simple miscommunication between the starter and ownership. The gals said they has permission, the owner says they are playing slowly.

At the end of the day, you've got to give private ownership the ability to manage their businesses. When there is a dispute, you've got a series of remediations that include the press, law suits, calling the police (to have people removed from private locations), etc. Somebody went to the press and ownership is paying the price. Trust the process.

 

[lj4heisman1]

so here's what we know:

- they teed off almost an hour late due to frost
- they asked if a 5 some would be ok and were told YES
- these women are experienced golfers and members of the course
- they were approached by the FATHER of the owner on the 2nd hole and told they were not keeping up the pace of play
- they consulted with a course expert who told them their pace was fine
- they skipped the 3rd hole to get ahead of the group in front of them
- at the 9th hole, 3 of the women left because of how they were treated
- the remaining 2 were TIMED by the course owner and told they had to leave since they took "too long" a break, even though the group behind them had yet to tee off
- the police were called when they refused to leave, arguing their case that they were being singled out by golf course owners
- the police arrived, investigated, issued no citations
- a female co owner called the women to apologize

Ok how is this racist

 

[KnightSlayer]

Slow play is slow play. a five-some will have slow play. It may have been a simple miscommunication between the starter and ownership. The gals said they has permission, the owner says they are playing slowly.

At the end of the day, you've got to give private ownership the ability to manage their businesses. When there is a dispute, you've got a series of remediations that include the press, law suits, calling the police (to have people removed from private locations), etc. Somebody went to the press and ownership is paying the price. Trust the process.

A claim of slow play is not necessarily slow play. Just so you have the story straight, a guy claiming to be the owner, who was not in fact the owner, complained of slow play on the 2nd hole. (that's two douche moves to kick of the incident) After the ninth hole, 3 of the golfers left because they were upset about their treatment. Two continued to play and were then kicked off because someone at the course decided they took too long of a break after the ninth hole. (That's douche move number 3)

 

[Obliviax]

A claim of slow play is not necessarily slow play. Just so you have the story straight, a guy claiming to be the owner, who was not in fact the owner, complained of slow play on the 2nd hole. (that's two douche moves to kick of the incident) After the ninth hole, 3 of the golfers left because they were upset about their treatment. Two continued to play and were then kicked off because someone at the course decided they took too long of a break after the ninth hole. (That's douche move number 3)

I agree on the first two Douche moves. The third, I'd have to see how long they took. It wouldn't shock me that the two left dragged their feet to make a point. But that is all speculation.

bottom line is that you have to give owners the ability to manage their businesses. Personally, if I go to a course that allows five-somes to play on any day even approaching a busy day, I find someplace else to play. That business. They have their right to run their shop, and I have a right to shop.

I have to say that if these gals are "experienced golfers" as they say, asking to play a five some was a "douche move" as well.

 

[nitanee123]

I'm curious if any other African Americans have played this course since new ownership took over. If so, what was their experience.

Also, I went on Yelp and saw this review from a month ago:
"Awful customer service. Course was closed and they never notified customers. Never stopped tee times on Golf Now. I show up at the course and the asshole in charge looks at me like I have 10 heads and told me to pound sand. No sorry, no apology, no nothing. Basically acted like I was inconveniencing him. He didn't believe me when I said I had a tee time. Essentially told me when I asked how to get my money back, "not my problem". Just disgusting attitude. Will never go back. Ever. Customer lost."

It is possible that the management (father?) is just a tone deaf a$$hole?

 

[UncleLar]

I call BS. A fivesome played 9 holes in under two hours? Hard to believe. Rule of thumb is 15 minutes per hole for a foursome. That is 2 hours and fifteen minutes.

You can if you make a conscientious effort. We played a five-some at Toftrees yesterday. Finished 18 holes in three hours and 35 minutes. Now I will admit that's very rare, but it's certainly possible. We did it because we know what it takes - just play ready golf and not waste time screwing around with time wasting things like long pre-shot routines. We pushed the envelope because we knew we were in the wrong and if we didn't keep up pace of play, we'd have to break up the group.

 

[nitanee123]

So I just saw the video and one of the white guys has...wait for it....a Philadelphia Eagles polo shirt.

Boom.

 

[Obliviax]

You can if you make a conscientious effort. We played a five-some at Toftrees yesterday. Finished 18 holes in three hours and 35 minutes. Now I will admit that's very rare, but it's certainly possible. We did it because we know what it takes - just play ready golf and not waste time screwing around with time wasting things like long pre-shot routines. We pushed the envelope because we knew we were in the wrong and if we didn't keep up pace of play, we'd have to break up the group.

Thanks. three takeways from your post:

1. you can play in under four hours
2. you knew you were wrong and anticipated someone throwing you off the course
3. i'll never play at Toftrees because they allow five-somes.

 

[BBrown]

I'm curious if any other African Americans have played this course since new ownership took over. If so, what was their experience.

Also, I went on Yelp and saw this review from a month ago:
"Awful customer service. Course was closed and they never notified customers. Never stopped tee times on Golf Now. I show up at the course and the asshole in charge looks at me like I have 10 heads and told me to pound sand. No sorry, no apology, no nothing. Basically acted like I was inconveniencing him. He didn't believe me when I said I had a tee time. Essentially told me when I asked how to get my money back, "not my problem". Just disgusting attitude. Will never go back. Ever. Customer lost."

It is possible that the management (father?) is just a tone deaf a$$hole?

Check out Midnighter's post. I believe he pretty much summed it up in one youtube link.

 

[UncleLar]

Thanks. three takeways from your post:

1. you can play in under four hours
2. you knew you were wrong and anticipated someone throwing you off the course
3. i'll never play at Toftrees because they allow five-somes.

They don't allow five-somes (which is why I said that we were in the wrong). There was a miscommunication among our group and five showed up to play. The group was three long-time members and two former pros. Since there was no one immediately in front of us, and no one immediately behind us we simply played together knowing that once someone caught us, we'd immediately break up into a threesome and twosome. We caught the foresome in front of us and managed to stay ahead of a husband and wife twosome that teed off behind us (not surprising given how quickly we finished).

 

[nitanee123]

In the comments on one of the articles, somebody indicated that the woman is the vice-chair of the Democratic Party of York County and the older man was a former York County Commissioner and a Republican. This could have been personal.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Who here was on the passenger’s side of that forced removal on United last year? Just curious...

 

[phillybillyreprise]

How often are police called to golf courses because of slow play?

 

[Obliviax]

Who here was on the passenger’s side of that forced removal on United last year? Just curious...

I was! Dude had a ticket and a seat (and was a doctor)

 

[Pardlion]

In the comments on one of the articles, somebody indicated that the woman is the vice-chair of the Democratic Party of York County and the older man was a former York County Commissioner and a Republican. This could have been personal.

Nice try, but the newspaper said it was racism.

 

[nitanee123]

Nice try, but the newspaper said it was racism.

And Sara Ganim won a pulitzer. What's your point.

 

[Obliviax]

Nice try, but the newspaper said it was racism.

First, I no longer believe newspapers (or any of the press, for that matter). Second, there is a ton of racism and sexism. Third, there are a ton of claims of racism & sexism when there is not. Fourth, there are times when people are racist/sexist and don't even know it. Fifth, there are two sides to every story.

I think it prudent to question the stories of both sides. And, often, I find that both sides can be wrong.

 

[BBrown]

Nice try, but the newspaper said it was racism.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Who here was on the passenger’s side of that forced removal on United last year? Just curious...

I will not fight you on this, LOL

my point in bringing that up is that the aftermath of the incident was . . . dude had a right to stand his ground, and law enforcement/security cannot interfere with a civil contract without cause

sounds like that management was offering the refund on the spot as a means of voiding the contract

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

Whether right or wrong, it is not a patrons place to open The People's Court in a private location. Or Judge Judy.

Once someone says, if you do not leave this private property I will call the police, you leave.

I don't know the specifics of this particular case, but they can follow-up after the event with whatever attorney ambulance chaser they want.

There seems to be a problem today with patrons not understanding private vs. public property. And, in either case, if the police ask you to leave or face arrest those are your options. Period.

LdN

People can have you removed from their private property for any reason, as long as it's a legal reason.
In the case of Rittenhouse starbucks, my understanding is their big problem was the cultural problem of Starbucks' long-time policy of allowing people to freely use the restrooms, sit in their restaurants all day, oftentimes without even requiring any purchase. That may work in a giant low-rent area, but not Rittenhouse, NYC, etc.. So their culture and policies are changing, but they've done an inadequate job of providing notice of the change. So in that case it was a conflict of rights (remove trespassers) v possible reasonable expectations of license based on a course of dealing. Hence, why are you singling me out for removal?

In this case, these were members. Hard for a member to trespass when it's just a minor disagreement with management. They had a conditional license that required them to follow the rules. They broke rules but sound to have had some level of permission from the pro. They were approached (badly)....

 

[Big 0]

1. I don't know of any golf course that allows 5-somes.
2. A conversation, initiated by the owner, should have been in order. The article doesn't address what happened before the police were called.
3. Did a conversation happen or not? If there was a decent conversation and the 5-some refused, I've got no problem.
4. If the owner just called the police because there was a 5-some then I agree, racism.

I can tell you I've golfed with a bunch of guys that would simply have hit balls into the group. To me, its golf, entertainment...enjoy yourself.

I totally agree. I don’t play golf much anymore due to time constraints, but when I did, the club pro or ranger would come out to enforce the 5 in a group rule. And admonish those hitting into them if they had continually done so on purpose.

 

[Obliviax]

I totally agree. I don’t play golf much anymore due to time constraints, but when I did, the club pro or ranger would come out to enforce the 5 in a group rule. And admonish those hitting into them if they had continually done so on purpose.

Here is my bet: I bet that GC never lets another five-some off while those owners are still in place, ever! And, as i said, if I patronized that place and saw them send a fivesome off, I'd find another place to play because the GC is clearly mismanaged.