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Penn State CB's size

blion72

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Jan 1, 2010
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lot of discussion by analysts about our small DBs. I thought it was maybe an over simplified view of PSU DBs. looking at some of the SEC and other BIG teams we are actually a bit smaller than all of them. even Rutgers has some bid CBs and Safeties. last year we had Amani O, and TCF is typical size. otherwise we are actually small at DB.

is this just a random season or do you think our coaches prefer a certain type of DB that will wind up with smaller guys. now we are hearing how all the teams are going to pick on our small DBs.
 
I agree with the above poster, our problem as not so much been tall receivers boxing us out for jump balls, it's been total break down in defense leading to wide open completions followed by really poor cb fundamentals, ie not locating the ball, and PI's
 
Wasn't able to find anything more current than this article from 2013: "One recent analysis of average player weights by position, using data from NFL.com for each player on 2013 rosters, found a range from 193 pounds for cornerbacks to 315 for offensive guards. (The difference in average heights, while not as dramatic, ranged from 5 foot 11 inches for running backs and cornerbacks to 6 foot 5 inches for offensive tackles."

Our corners come in at an average of 185 lbs and just a shade over 5-11. The comment that our corners are small doesn't really hold weight, as I'd expect the average college cornerback to be even smaller than the average NFL cornerback.

Donovan Johnson: 5-9 / 185 lbs
Trent Gordon: 5-11 / 188 lbs
John Reid 5-10 / 181 lbs
Keaton Ellis: 5-11 / 190 lbs
Marquis Wilson: 5-11 / 173 lbs
TCF: 6-0 / 197 lbs
Joey Porter Jr: 6-2 / 180 lbs
 
Wasn't able to find anything more current than this article from 2013: "One recent analysis of average player weights by position, using data from NFL.com for each player on 2013 rosters, found a range from 193 pounds for cornerbacks to 315 for offensive guards. (The difference in average heights, while not as dramatic, ranged from 5 foot 11 inches for running backs and cornerbacks to 6 foot 5 inches for offensive tackles."

Our corners come in at an average of 185 lbs and just a shade over 5-11. The comment that our corners are small doesn't really hold weight, as I'd expect the average college cornerback to be even smaller than the average NFL cornerback.

Donovan Johnson: 5-9 / 185 lbs
Trent Gordon: 5-11 / 188 lbs
John Reid 5-10 / 181 lbs
Keaton Ellis: 5-11 / 190 lbs
Marquis Wilson: 5-11 / 173 lbs
TCF: 6-0 / 197 lbs
Joey Porter Jr: 6-2 / 180 lbs
Looking at next year's crop of DB recruits their heights are: 6-2, 6-1, 6-1, and 6-0. Could it be that CJF recognizes the problem and is recruiting to fix it?
 
Wasn't able to find anything more current than this article from 2013: "One recent analysis of average player weights by position, using data from NFL.com for each player on 2013 rosters, found a range from 193 pounds for cornerbacks to 315 for offensive guards. (The difference in average heights, while not as dramatic, ranged from 5 foot 11 inches for running backs and cornerbacks to 6 foot 5 inches for offensive tackles."

Our corners come in at an average of 185 lbs and just a shade over 5-11. The comment that our corners are small doesn't really hold weight, as I'd expect the average college cornerback to be even smaller than the average NFL cornerback.

Donovan Johnson: 5-9 / 185 lbs
Trent Gordon: 5-11 / 188 lbs
John Reid 5-10 / 181 lbs
Keaton Ellis: 5-11 / 190 lbs
Marquis Wilson: 5-11 / 173 lbs
TCF: 6-0 / 197 lbs
Joey Porter Jr: 6-2 / 180 lbs

the comments that our DBs are small has come in games by analysts and the guys on the Penn Live podcasts. the Penn Live guys talk about Joey Porter, but he doesn't play much. if you look at the BIG,UMich similar to us in their starters, but most of the pack is bigger than our guys by a bit. this does not suggest size is our problem, but it is being suggested by media experts.
 
I can’t say I’ve observed our defensive backs being too small. I think some folks get the idea in their head that every cornerback should look like Richard Sherman, and those body types just aren’t too common. I think it’s more one of those things that the media decides is something that’s holding the team back, and the hammer it home regardless of what actually happens on the field.
 
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lot of discussion by analysts about our small DBs. I thought it was maybe an over simplified view of PSU DBs. looking at some of the SEC and other BIG teams we are actually a bit smaller than all of them. even Rutgers has some bid CBs and Safeties. last year we had Amani O, and TCF is typical size. otherwise we are actually small at DB.

is this just a random season or do you think our coaches prefer a certain type of DB that will wind up with smaller guys. now we are hearing how all the teams are going to pick on our small DBs.
The game has changed some, but we've done OK with small DBs in the past. But they usually didn't hit like 5'9. Lay someone out early and height becomes less of an issue and arms get shorter. I'd love to have a Ray Isom type back there.
 
the comments that our DBs are small has come in games by analysts and the guys on the Penn Live podcasts. the Penn Live guys talk about Joey Porter, but he doesn't play much. if you look at the BIG,UMich similar to us in their starters, but most of the pack is bigger than our guys by a bit. this does not suggest size is our problem, but it is being suggested by media experts.

PennLive are media experts? What color is the sky in your world?
 
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It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size if the fight in the dog...:D

In all seriousness, I think they need to get taller and longer in the DB department... It isn't that our boys can't do it, it just makes the job a bit harder. Work smarter and not harder they say...
 
It really doesn’t matter what size our DBs are as they seldom look back to have a clue that the ball has been thrown and will be arriving shortly!
I agree 100%. I have been saying this all year, they can't find the ball and thats because they don't get their damn head turned around. Is this a Terry Smith coaching issue? I am not certain how good of a coach Mr. Smith is. He did well at Gateway only because he recruited many of his players who came from outside the school district. As a result he had superior high school talent and won easily, Does this make him a good coach? Talent disparity won for him.
 
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Our CBs and Safeties are fine, IMO. How's the saying go? "You have to dance with the one who brung you?"

It's pretty tough to tell where a 5'10" 180lbs CB is going to end up.

There is a smattering of issues going on in the secondary right now, some of which are:
  1. #29 had a tough injury for his position, and for football in general. Both he and #5 are probably one of the best CB tandems in the conference.
  2. Because we don't get to see the All-22, it's difficult to see the off-camera successes of the CBs. (not many against Minnesota though)
  3. We've all seen the PIs. Even the best DBs in the NFL and NCAA commit PIs. You want those PIs to be "good" ones. It's better to give 15 yards than a TD. Some of the PIs looked to be habitual/bad-technique and/or lack of awareness (e.g. down/distance, side of field, etc.).
  4. Good vs. Bad technique: all DBs do the handtrap. How long do you trap the hand? And what is the game, down/distance, field position, etc.?
  5. Two examples: (1) the one called on #29 vs. Minnesota was in perfect view of the sideline ref and right in front of Fleck on the Minny sideline; (2) the one called on #38 in the UM game went from good to bad because he held on for a split second too long. It was out of view of the sideline official, the WR (I think it was Collins) was the first to extend his arm, but #38 got stuck for that additional second as Collins changed course to field the ball.
  6. Our DBs are pretty good at open field tackling. You can't overlook this issue, and it is one of the most difficult things to do in football. In 2-3 years, as the next group of taller CBs develop and play, we may be on here talking about how PSU's tall CBs can't tackle in space.
  7. PSU has two safeties that are very proficient at stopping the run.
  8. Opposing coaches saying, "we went after their DBs because that is their weakness" can mean either: (1) their DBs stink; or (2) the other position groups are so much better than PSU's opposing position group (e.g. OT vs. DE, LBs vs. OGs/RBs). I would argue that with the power at LB, run stoppage, etc., that offenses don't have much of an option other than to target the DBs.
  9. From 2016 through 2018, the offensive scheme that beat PSU's defense was the dink dunk, short coverage throws, screens (e.g. Haskins). IMO this was because the LBs were not great covering the flat and intermediate areas (Darnold and Haskins). PSU had Amani, and Apke/Scott were good over top.
  10. In 2019, the RPO and deep routes is the focus. Why? IMO, our LBs and DTs do not get a good push up the middle in the A gaps which gives the RPO QB more time.
  11. As a counter, #36 has been good in pass coverage, but neither #36 or #11 have been disruptive in pass rushes up the middle. That's not really bagging on them either. I would probably accept the argument that #36 is rarely sent into A or B gap blitzes or stunts. I have seen #11 get stuffed in the B several times.
  12. Which leads to the next point: Sometimes you get beat because of the coverage package.
  13. The Minnesota game for instance, PSU was in a lot more zone coverage where all of the DBs and Safeties were watching Morgan. Pry's base defensive game plan has ordinarily been to sell out and stop the run. (There is an armchair/keyboard coach argument that selling out to stop the run against Minnesota was a not-so-good game plan...could argue that PSU can rely on its front 7 or front 5 to stop the run against a team like Minnesota). Who would've thought that Morgan was going to throw perfect dimes the entire game?
  14. Then you have execution issues (or at least what looked like execution issues)...e.g. the safeties bit a lot on the play action.
 
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I agree with the above poster, our problem as not so much been tall receivers boxing us out for jump balls, it's been total break down in defense leading to wide open completions followed by really poor cb fundamentals, ie not locating the ball, and PI's

Stick around, it will get there.
 
We went thru this when Joe was still coach. Everyone wants backs that are 6’2 and 220 lbs. there are only a couple guys like that around who also have the ability to run backwards. You can’t criticize the recruiting here. There just aren’t that many of these guys out there.
 
For shits and giggles, here are the sizes of last year's All Americans in the defensive backfield:

2018

CB Deandre Baker (UGA): 5'11, 185
CB Julian Love (ND): 5'11, 193
S Grant Delpit (LSU): 6'3, 203
S Deionte Thompson (Alabama): 6'1, 195

CB Greedy Williams (LSU): 6'2, 185
CB Byron Murphy (Washington): 5'11, 182
S Taylor Rapp (Washington): 6'0, 202
S Amani Hooker (Iowa): 6'0, 210

CB Hamp Cheevers (BC): 5'10, 180
CB Lavert Hill (Michigan): 5'11, 182
S Andre Cisco (Syracuse): 6'0, 203
S Jonathan Abram (Miss State): 6'0, 215


For comparison:

TCF: 6'0, 197
John Reid: 5'10, 181
Wade: 5'9, 199
Taylor: 6'0, 198


So, only Lamont Wade is notably smaller than the typical All American at his position. TCF is actually bigger than most CBs, and Reid and Taylor are about average. Donovan Johnson is smaller, but some of the other guys are bigger. On the whole, we aren't any smaller than what you'd expect for this program.

Size isn't the problem.
 
DB lack of size isn't the issue.

DB lack of aggressiveness and cohesion is the issue (along with the lack of a pass rush)
 
Size has nothing to do with recievers getting behind the secondary when they wre playing prevent
 
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Size has nothing to do with recievers getting behind the secondary when they wre playing prevent

Yep. It's awareness. The lack of awareness at times is absolutely stunning.

We really need to reconsider our staffing/scheming in the secondary.
 
Looking at next year's crop of DB recruits their heights are: 6-2, 6-1, 6-1, and 6-0. Could it be that CJF recognizes the problem and is recruiting to fix it?
If he recognizes the problem we will see banks and smith looking for jobs
 
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