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Penn State's 2023 NCAA Chances (aka Firing Up the Diesel Generator)

Unbiased_football_fan

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Aug 18, 2006
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It is that time of year where I dust off WrestleSim and see what it is telling us. Official seeds will be out tomorrow so I will update. This is a teaser for the more complete analysis to come.

Myth 1: No, you do not need eight scoring wrestlers and no I am not going to meet you on a bridge to fight about it.

Myth 2: No, you do not need 20 bonus points and no I am not going to meet you under a bridge to fight about it, but I will meet you on a bridge to fight.

Myth 3: Underseeding hurts the underseeded wrestler. Overseeding helps the overseeded wrestler.

Before people get all worked up about seeding, it doesn't impact the results all that much. Only in RARE circumstances (channeling my inner bird with the CAPS!) is the underseeded wrestler affected negatively. It mostly affects his lower ranked opponents and can block a guy from wrestling back to place that otherwise would have made it. Upsets of highly ranked wrestlers matters far more, especially if a guy gets his act together once he is knocked to the backside. Overseeding hurts the overseeded wrestler, it doesn't help him. These coaches that play seeding games and endorse match ducking, totally ass backwards.

QUIZ: Which Penn State match/wrestler showed a tactic to defeat the "rider" who continually runs his guy off the mat? I noticed it and the tactic was beautiful. Hopefully when widely deployed it will eliminate this behavior from the sport. A friend suggested a fix - you get 30 seconds to ride and if you don't get a turn, back to your feet and no escape point. I like this idea. I also like 3 points for a takedown to encourage more neutral action (Or would it? would a guy with the lead shut down the offense and go on defense). I don't know but anything that prevents riding with no turns and neutral with no shots is good in my book. Not everyone can be Andonian but I wish they would try more.

Penn State this year is a heavy favorite (duh). The base model using Intermat's rankings as seeds has (to win) PSU 98.4%, Iowa 1.0%, Missouri 0.4%, Cornell 0.3%, and ISU 0.1%. Everyone else gets the Blutarsky 0.00. This was based on 1,000 realizations of the probabilistic model. The more accurate simulation where adjustments are made to account for some top seeds being heavier favorites than other top seeds has the results shown below. A bit counter intuitive because you may think "Spencer Lee is a lock, the Hawks' chances should go up" but it doesn't work that way because the chances of the lower ranked wrestlers pulling the upset (think #10 seed winning and getting 20 points instead of ~3 points) gets eliminated/reduced. The Hawks chance of second goes up from about 42% to 62% but their chance of first goes down.

UFF

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Boosted2023-preseeds-team-scores.png
 
It is that time of year where I dust off WrestleSim and see what it is telling us. Official seeds will be out tomorrow so I will update. This is a teaser for the more complete analysis to come.

Myth 1: No, you do not need eight scoring wrestlers and no I am not going to meet you on a bridge to fight about it.

Myth 2: No, you do not need 20 bonus points and no I am not going to meet you under a bridge to fight about it, but I will meet you on a bridge to fight.

Myth 3: Underseeding hurts the underseeded wrestler. Overseeding helps the overseeded wrestler.

Before people get all worked up about seeding, it doesn't impact the results all that much. Only in RARE circumstances (channeling my inner bird with the CAPS!) is the underseeded wrestler affected negatively. It mostly affects his lower ranked opponents and can block a guy from wrestling back to place that otherwise would have made it. Upsets of highly ranked wrestlers matters far more, especially if a guy gets his act together once he is knocked to the backside. Overseeding hurts the overseeded wrestler, it doesn't help him. These coaches that play seeding games and endorse match ducking, totally ass backwards.

QUIZ: Which Penn State match/wrestler showed a tactic to defeat the "rider" who continually runs his guy off the mat? I noticed it and the tactic was beautiful. Hopefully when widely deployed it will eliminate this behavior from the sport. A friend suggested a fix - you get 30 seconds to ride and if you don't get a turn, back to your feet and no escape point. I like this idea. I also like 3 points for a takedown to encourage more neutral action (Or would it? would a guy with the lead shut down the offense and go on defense). I don't know but anything that prevents riding with no turns and neutral with no shots is good in my book. Not everyone can be Andonian but I wish they would try more.

Penn State this year is a heavy favorite (duh). The base model using Intermat's rankings as seeds has (to win) PSU 98.4%, Iowa 1.0%, Missouri 0.4%, Cornell 0.3%, and ISU 0.1%. Everyone else gets the Blutarsky 0.00. This was based on 1,000 realizations of the probabilistic model. The more accurate simulation where adjustments are made to account for some top seeds being heavier favorites than other top seeds has the results shown below. A bit counter intuitive because you may think "Spencer Lee is a lock, the Hawks' chances should go up" but it doesn't work that way because the chances of the lower ranked wrestlers pulling the upset (think #10 seed winning and getting 20 points instead of ~3 points) gets eliminated/reduced. The Hawks chance of second goes up from about 42% to 62% but their chance of first goes down.

UFF

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Boosted2023-preseeds-team-scores.png
I look forward to this every year. Thank you.
 
It is that time of year where I dust off WrestleSim and see what it is telling us. Official seeds will be out tomorrow so I will update. This is a teaser for the more complete analysis to come.

Myth 1: No, you do not need eight scoring wrestlers and no I am not going to meet you on a bridge to fight about it.

Myth 2: No, you do not need 20 bonus points and no I am not going to meet you under a bridge to fight about it, but I will meet you on a bridge to fight.

Myth 3: Underseeding hurts the underseeded wrestler. Overseeding helps the overseeded wrestler.

Before people get all worked up about seeding, it doesn't impact the results all that much. Only in RARE circumstances (channeling my inner bird with the CAPS!) is the underseeded wrestler affected negatively. It mostly affects his lower ranked opponents and can block a guy from wrestling back to place that otherwise would have made it. Upsets of highly ranked wrestlers matters far more, especially if a guy gets his act together once he is knocked to the backside. Overseeding hurts the overseeded wrestler, it doesn't help him. These coaches that play seeding games and endorse match ducking, totally ass backwards.

QUIZ: Which Penn State match/wrestler showed a tactic to defeat the "rider" who continually runs his guy off the mat? I noticed it and the tactic was beautiful. Hopefully when widely deployed it will eliminate this behavior from the sport. A friend suggested a fix - you get 30 seconds to ride and if you don't get a turn, back to your feet and no escape point. I like this idea. I also like 3 points for a takedown to encourage more neutral action (Or would it? would a guy with the lead shut down the offense and go on defense). I don't know but anything that prevents riding with no turns and neutral with no shots is good in my book. Not everyone can be Andonian but I wish they would try more.

Penn State this year is a heavy favorite (duh). The base model using Intermat's rankings as seeds has (to win) PSU 98.4%, Iowa 1.0%, Missouri 0.4%, Cornell 0.3%, and ISU 0.1%. Everyone else gets the Blutarsky 0.00. This was based on 1,000 realizations of the probabilistic model. The more accurate simulation where adjustments are made to account for some top seeds being heavier favorites than other top seeds has the results shown below. A bit counter intuitive because you may think "Spencer Lee is a lock, the Hawks' chances should go up" but it doesn't work that way because the chances of the lower ranked wrestlers pulling the upset (think #10 seed winning and getting 20 points instead of ~3 points) gets eliminated/reduced. The Hawks chance of second goes up from about 42% to 62% but their chance of first goes down.

UFF

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Boosted2023-preseeds-team-scores.png

As a stat geek, I look forward to this every season.
leonardo-dicaprio-toast.gif
 
A nice scholarly post. For those of you who are mathematically challenged, here’s a short translation.

“Iowa would have a better chance if wrestling adopted the old D1 football system where everyone voted for the national champion team.”
 
A nice scholarly post. For those of you who are mathematically challenged, here’s a short translation.

“Iowa would have a better chance if wrestling adopted the old D1 football system where everyone voted for the national champion team.”
Can you imagine? We’d get so hosed by “objective” journalists like Cody Goodwin
 
I'm new to this idea of overseeding hurting the overseeded wrestler. I assume that we are talking statistically? Can anyone help me get my head around this counterintuitive notion?
 
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The sportsbooks have been offering PSU at around -500, so if you go by these odds.....
 
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Can you imagine? We’d get so hosed by “objective” journalists like Cody Goodwin
For those of us who are elderly posters here, the one that still rubs me the wrong way is when Tricky Dick made a public comment that he was going to watch the national championship game between Texas and Arkansas. Once he said that, our chances of getting voted to the top spot were essentially zero. 😖
 
I'm new to this idea of overseeding hurting the overseeded wrestler. I assume that we are talking statistically? Can anyone help me get my head around this counterintuitive notion?
That's not quite what he said -- he said that being overseeded doesn't necessarily help that guy.

It probably has to do with injuries (think Suriano and Rasheed) and specific matchups.

Plus inflated records due to flimsy schedules -- think those years when Missouri had great regular season records against Little Sisters of the Poor, then got their heads handed to them at NCAAs.
 
That's not quite what he said -- he said that being overseeded doesn't necessarily help that guy.

It probably has to do with injuries (think Suriano and Rasheed) and specific matchups.

Plus inflated records due to flimsy schedules -- think those years when Missouri had great regular season records against Little Sisters of the Poor, then got their heads handed to them at NCAAs.
I suspect you didn’t really want to use the word “heads”
There at the end
 
It is that time of year where I dust off WrestleSim and see what it is telling us. Official seeds will be out tomorrow so I will update. This is a teaser for the more complete analysis to come.

Myth 1: No, you do not need eight scoring wrestlers and no I am not going to meet you on a bridge to fight about it.

Myth 2: No, you do not need 20 bonus points and no I am not going to meet you under a bridge to fight about it, but I will meet you on a bridge to fight.

Myth 3: Underseeding hurts the underseeded wrestler. Overseeding helps the overseeded wrestler.

Before people get all worked up about seeding, it doesn't impact the results all that much. Only in RARE circumstances (channeling my inner bird with the CAPS!) is the underseeded wrestler affected negatively. It mostly affects his lower ranked opponents and can block a guy from wrestling back to place that otherwise would have made it. Upsets of highly ranked wrestlers matters far more, especially if a guy gets his act together once he is knocked to the backside. Overseeding hurts the overseeded wrestler, it doesn't help him. These coaches that play seeding games and endorse match ducking, totally ass backwards.

QUIZ: Which Penn State match/wrestler showed a tactic to defeat the "rider" who continually runs his guy off the mat? I noticed it and the tactic was beautiful. Hopefully when widely deployed it will eliminate this behavior from the sport. A friend suggested a fix - you get 30 seconds to ride and if you don't get a turn, back to your feet and no escape point. I like this idea. I also like 3 points for a takedown to encourage more neutral action (Or would it? would a guy with the lead shut down the offense and go on defense). I don't know but anything that prevents riding with no turns and neutral with no shots is good in my book. Not everyone can be Andonian but I wish they would try more.

Penn State this year is a heavy favorite (duh). The base model using Intermat's rankings as seeds has (to win) PSU 98.4%, Iowa 1.0%, Missouri 0.4%, Cornell 0.3%, and ISU 0.1%. Everyone else gets the Blutarsky 0.00. This was based on 1,000 realizations of the probabilistic model. The more accurate simulation where adjustments are made to account for some top seeds being heavier favorites than other top seeds has the results shown below. A bit counter intuitive because you may think "Spencer Lee is a lock, the Hawks' chances should go up" but it doesn't work that way because the chances of the lower ranked wrestlers pulling the upset (think #10 seed winning and getting 20 points instead of ~3 points) gets eliminated/reduced. The Hawks chance of second goes up from about 42% to 62% but their chance of first goes down.

UFF

Boosted2023-preseeds-Main-Menu.png



Boosted2023-preseeds-team-scores.png
You know I get nominated for post of the year and actually advance rounds because I make a joke about some new poster on here randomly hooking up his ex-gf and then we get things like this. The world is not fair.
 
You guys crack me up, that is why I like to read what you post!

A few replies:

Quiz: I didn't answer the quiz question because I think Cael may have taught his wrestlers what to do when facing this. Being a Penn Stater I wouldn't want to open up a counter to it, but I expect you will see more of it. After NCAAs I will point it out. Maybe it was chance, but I thought I saw it attempted at least twice and one time it worked.

Betting: I don't want to be responsible for financial advice, buuuuuuuuuuuut yes at -500 I would be on that like stink on a pig. Will depend on seeds tonight but I don't think the numbers will change a lot. I would also wait to closer to the tournament to make sure no major injuries happen in practice. My guess is coaches are ultra careful, but injuries occasionally happen.

Overseeding/ducking: I'm not saying there aren't circumstances where it is a benefit, for instance if the #1 seed is Bo Nickal and the #2/#3 are not Bo Nickal, if you can get your guy moved from 4/5 to 2/3 that is obviously a benefit, but not as much as you may expect when all the scenarios are accounted for. For the most part it is a net negative all things considered, especially because you don't know how much of a boost your guy will get and who he is going to face. Say a guy ducks good competition and "inflates" his seed from a 7 to a 5. He still has the ability of a 7 not a 5. If he is a 7 and seeded as a 7 his likely path is 10/2/12 (blood round) whereas if he is seeded 5 it is 12/4/8 (blood round), his first two matches are statistically slightly more winnable, but the one that matters in his most likely path is less winnable. Sorry this is a bit messy and an oversimplification but I hope it makes sense. Upsets happen and matter very much with respect to ducking calculations.

2020: Yes, I had run 2020 and the Hawks were decided favorites if I remember correctly but not anything like this year for Penn State, maybe 70% or so? I could see if I saved that model/inputs.
 
For those of us who are elderly posters here, the one that still rubs me the wrong way is when Tricky Dick made a public comment that he was going to watch the national championship game between Texas and Arkansas. Once he said that, our chances of getting voted to the top spot were essentially zero. 😖
It wasn't that he said he was going to watch the game, what really destroyed PSU's chances for the top spot, is Tricky Dick said the winner of TX v AR will be the number 1 team in the nation. (Side note: Not only did Nixon watch the game, he attended the fray.)
 
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Always enjoy this perspective and as far as I can remember its pretty pretty spot on. Always said PSU just needs to get to 110 and they have the horses to just wrestle to seed to do it. Its pretty incredible that the next 100% is Iowa at around 60 pts! So to all the Nit Fans just sit back and enjoy the tournament as this could be wrapped up by lunchtime on Saturday.
 
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It wasn't that he said he was going to watch the game, what really destroyed PSU's chances for the top spot, is Tricky Dick said the winner of TX v AR will be the number 1 team in the nation. (Side note: Not only did Nixon watch the game, he attended the fray.)
I also remember that the news media called him “The country’s #1 football fan.” He sure didn’t do us any favors.
 
Here are a few quick shots to show after official seeds where things stand. First reaction is Penn State's chances vs. the field went down quite a bit, and they did on the base model results (on paper). BUT this is almost completely due to Brooks getting the #3 and Kerk getting the #3 as compared to #1 and #2. As I show in the image capture below the first one, I believe Penn State's chances dropped precipitously from 99.9% to 99.7% if you plug Brooks in as a true #1 and Kerk as a #2. Crazy things happen in sports, but to my untrained eye Brooks seems like clear #1 material and I wouldn't be shocked if Kerk actually won too. More to follow!

NCAA2023-pre-base.png


NCAA2023-pre-Brooks-Kerk.png


Obligatory, you're telling me there is a chance.............
 
What I find most interesting is that simulating the brackets as presented has Iowa at a .706 probability of placing top 3 and .075 as #1.

But when you change Brooks and Kerk, Iowa’s probability of top 3 increases to .916 while finishing first drops to .002.
 
What I find most interesting is that simulating the brackets as presented has Iowa at a .706 probability of placing top 3 and .075 as #1.

But when you change Brooks and Kerk, Iowa’s probability of top 3 increases to .916 while finishing first drops to .002.
Presumably Iowa's guys changed to.

Example: if Cass were originally the 3, then he got dropped to the 4 and with that reduced odds.
 
Presumably Iowa's guys changed to.

Example: if Cass were originally the 3, then he got dropped to the 4 and with that reduced odds.
Right. But their top 3 probability went way up.
 
Two things are going on here at the same time.

First, I increased the likelihood of Spencer winning and bonusing his opponents because he clearly isn't a "regular" #1 seed. With that said, you have to be careful about guarantees in anything and especially in sports. All of these wrestlers are alpha^2 and it only takes a thumb getting wrenched or something like that to make a super #1 into a regular #1. Very curious to see if Glory makes it the finals and if that is a match.

Second, there are not an infinite number of places/points. If certain wrestlers are likely to get high places then the remainder have to fight for the scraps. The variance in the results of the base model is because you can have a #10 finish #2, that is a big point change. But if the top guys at a weight are really strong, that #10 has a very low chance of getting #2.

The base shows PSU 1, Iowa 2/3/4, Cornell 2/3/4, Nebraska/NCST/Missouri 3/4. I think the results are tighter than this. This isn't factoring in how well PSU top 4 guys do at NCAAs, which is clearly not rainbow unicorn misinformation.

Here are a few other interesting facts from last year for context:

74% of top 8 seeds placed
95% of 1/2 seeds placed
90% of 3/4 seeds placed
65% of 5/6 seeds placed
45% of 7/8 seeds placed

Take seeds and add up points? Doesn't work that way!

Net additions/subtractions to placing by conference:
Big Ten +4, ACC +2, Pac12 +2, EIWA 0, SCon -1, MAC -3, Big 12 -4

Net additions/subtractions by Big 10 Team:
Nebraska +4, NW +3, Rutger +1, Minn +1, MSU -1, Mich -2, Iowa -2

It doesn't all go chalk but usually adds/subtracts mostly even out unless there is bias in seeds (which there can be) or in preparation and wrestling style. There are some that really don't like Penn State and they do everything in their power to try to put them down, you see it in some rankings following a loss or how they handle Penn State FR compared to other FR. It really is funny, because all it does is make them look stupid in the end. The ranking doesn't impact how good or bad the wrestler actually is.

From above you would say you don't want to face Big 10 wrestlers and you do want to face MAC and Big 12. A team that knows how to peak will consistently outperform a team that doesn't know how to. Finally, I think style matters more at NCAAs especially for lower seeded guys. A defensive #9 seed is probably going to lose to a #1 seed 97 times out of 100. But a guy that can hit a 6-point move may lose 80%. He may lose by more points, but it doesn't matter how many points you lose by when you are trying to place!

Ducking (sorry as you can tell I really hate this for the sport, especially because it clearly does not work): As a coach if you hide your wrestlers from the tough guys during the season, now what? Are you just saying that the other coach is superior to you, and he will out coach you given intel? I really don't get it. And yelling instructions during matches! It is too late unless in special circumstances because the other wrestler and coach can hear your instructions too!

I like most of Penn State's draws just fine. I think some of Iowa's are tough. Regarding Dean, yes, he has Allred who he just lost to. 197 is a meat grinder and the Big Ten is not as strong at this weight. The best predictor of NCAA tournament success is winning percentage against Top 16 and Top 8. Dean is 76% the last two years where Allred is 50%. If Dean gets a takedown Allred has no idea if he can get out or if he will get turned. Big advantage Dean. In addition, if he were to lose to Allred (I would tip my cap to the young man) I could easily see Dean wrestle back to 3rd. His expected points being a #9 aren't very many, keep this in mind.

Going to be FUN!
 
Two things are going on here at the same time.

First, I increased the likelihood of Spencer winning and bonusing his opponents because he clearly isn't a "regular" #1 seed. With that said, you have to be careful about guarantees in anything and especially in sports. All of these wrestlers are alpha^2 and it only takes a thumb getting wrenched or something like that to make a super #1 into a regular #1. Very curious to see if Glory makes it the finals and if that is a match.

Second, there are not an infinite number of places/points. If certain wrestlers are likely to get high places then the remainder have to fight for the scraps. The variance in the results of the base model is because you can have a #10 finish #2, that is a big point change. But if the top guys at a weight are really strong, that #10 has a very low chance of getting #2.

The base shows PSU 1, Iowa 2/3/4, Cornell 2/3/4, Nebraska/NCST/Missouri 3/4. I think the results are tighter than this. This isn't factoring in how well PSU top 4 guys do at NCAAs, which is clearly not rainbow unicorn misinformation.

Here are a few other interesting facts from last year for context:

74% of top 8 seeds placed
95% of 1/2 seeds placed
90% of 3/4 seeds placed
65% of 5/6 seeds placed
45% of 7/8 seeds placed

Take seeds and add up points? Doesn't work that way!

Net additions/subtractions to placing by conference:
Big Ten +4, ACC +2, Pac12 +2, EIWA 0, SCon -1, MAC -3, Big 12 -4

Net additions/subtractions by Big 10 Team:
Nebraska +4, NW +3, Rutger +1, Minn +1, MSU -1, Mich -2, Iowa -2

It doesn't all go chalk but usually adds/subtracts mostly even out unless there is bias in seeds (which there can be) or in preparation and wrestling style. There are some that really don't like Penn State and they do everything in their power to try to put them down, you see it in some rankings following a loss or how they handle Penn State FR compared to other FR. It really is funny, because all it does is make them look stupid in the end. The ranking doesn't impact how good or bad the wrestler actually is.

From above you would say you don't want to face Big 10 wrestlers and you do want to face MAC and Big 12. A team that knows how to peak will consistently outperform a team that doesn't know how to. Finally, I think style matters more at NCAAs especially for lower seeded guys. A defensive #9 seed is probably going to lose to a #1 seed 97 times out of 100. But a guy that can hit a 6-point move may lose 80%. He may lose by more points, but it doesn't matter how many points you lose by when you are trying to place!

Ducking (sorry as you can tell I really hate this for the sport, especially because it clearly does not work): As a coach if you hide your wrestlers from the tough guys during the season, now what? Are you just saying that the other coach is superior to you, and he will out coach you given intel? I really don't get it. And yelling instructions during matches! It is too late unless in special circumstances because the other wrestler and coach can hear your instructions too!

I like most of Penn State's draws just fine. I think some of Iowa's are tough. Regarding Dean, yes, he has Allred who he just lost to. 197 is a meat grinder and the Big Ten is not as strong at this weight. The best predictor of NCAA tournament success is winning percentage against Top 16 and Top 8. Dean is 76% the last two years where Allred is 50%. If Dean gets a takedown Allred has no idea if he can get out or if he will get turned. Big advantage Dean. In addition, if he were to lose to Allred (I would tip my cap to the young man) I could easily see Dean wrestle back to 3rd. His expected points being a #9 aren't very many, keep this in mind.

Going to be FUN!
So you are saying we are going to win right? Lol. My head hurts after reading all of that. I have a whole new respect for guys like you and the numbers
 
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For those of us who are elderly posters here, the one that still rubs me the wrong way is when Tricky Dick made a public comment that he was going to watch the national championship game between Texas and Arkansas. Once he said that, our chances of getting voted to the top spot were essentially zero. 😖
I remember Nixon's proclamation like it was yesterday. Also remember Costas screwing us over before we even played the Rose Bowl in '94.
 
I remember Nixon's proclamation like it was yesterday. Also remember Costas screwing us over before we even played the Rose Bowl in '94.
Yeah that’s another time we got shafted because poor Tom Osborne had never won a national title while Joe already had two. I’m pretty sure we could have beaten Nebraska that year.

Can you imagine how people would react if the NCAA changed the rules so that the wrestling national championship for both team and individual weights was determined by a vote?
 
Yeah that’s another time we got shafted because poor Tom Osborne had never won a national title while Joe already had two. I’m pretty sure we could have beaten Nebraska that year.

Can you imagine how people would react if the NCAA changed the rules so that the wrestling national championship for both team and individual weights was determined by a vote?
We definitely could have beaten Nebraska that year, we could have beaten a few NFL teams that year!
 
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