Player Development

[ryoder1]

Caught a little of the Will Cain radio show the other day and he was discussing what scUM needs to go from good to elite and catch O$U He made the point that the crucial gap is player development.

I think PSU is lacking in player development or at least not developing our talent as well as the elite programs. We have recruited at a high level but cannot get over the hump yet...

Look at our WR's, Cornerbacks Offensive Line even QB improvement is questionable. The development is not happening to allow us to compete at the highest level.

Yes, I know there are exceptions such as the best players on our team, Hamler, Friermuth. Parsons but you can argue they are so good that little development was/is needed to be a star at the college level.

PD is on the coaches but also the players have accountability as well.

I know some people on this board will get offended as they think there are zero areas of improvement for the program but taking off the blue and white glasses, PD definitely is an opportunity to improve.

 

[Ranger Dan]

Penn State is averaging top 10 in recruiting recently, but tOSU is perennial top 5. If Our goal is to consistently compete with tOSU then we need to recruit with them.

 

[cjrugger]

All the teams that you think are 'elite'
a) pay their coaches a shit ton more than we do
b) recruit at a higher level

That's why they are better. If you want to call that 'player development,' knock yourself out

 

[Raffycorn]

To be very honest with you, I think player development is this staff’s biggest strength. We see it at the combine every year. When this program started to see big success in 2016 and 2017, it was largely on the back of a bunch of extremely well-developed three star kids like Trace, Marcus Allen, Cabinda, and Haley. Sure, there were four stars, too, like Barkley, Godwin, and Gesicki, but even those guys were developed to a level far outshining their star ranking.

 

[PennState_one]

It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's, NOT the X's and O's...

 

[81b&w]

Caught a little of the Will Cain radio show the other day and he was discussing what scUM needs to go from good to elite and catch O$U He made the point that the crucial gap is player development.

I think PSU is lacking in player development or at least not developing our talent as well as the elite programs. We have recruited at a high level but cannot get over the hump yet...

Look at our WR's, Cornerbacks Offensive Line even QB improvement is questionable. The development is not happening to allow us to compete at the highest level.

Yes, I know there are exceptions such as the best players on our team, Hamler, Friermuth. Parsons but you can argue they are so good that little development was/is needed to be a star at the college level.

PD is on the coaches but also the players have accountability as well.

I know some people on this board will get offended as they think there are zero areas of improvement for the program but taking off the blue and white glasses, PD definitely is an opportunity to improve.

We don't need no stinkin steroids!

 

[ryoder1]

To be very honest with you, I think player development is this staff’s biggest strength. We see it at the combine every year. When this program started to see big success in 2016 and 2017, it was largely on the back of a bunch of extremely well-developed three star kids like Trace, Marcus Allen, Cabinda, and Haley. Sure, there were four stars, too, like Barkley, Godwin, and Gesicki, but even those guys were developed to a level far outshining their star ranking.

Well we are missing something now because I do not see the talent emerging like that. Our WR play over the last two years you could argue has cost us big time. That is also poor coaching.

 

[81b&w]

We don't need no stinkin steroids!

Never mind, I saw you are a ryoder

 

[PennState_one]

Did you just make that up?

Yep lol. Right off the top of my head. Original stuff.

 

[Ian]

It's about the Jimmy's and Joe's, NOT the X's and O's...

O$U is developing 4* and 5* vs. PSU developing 3* and 4*... the difference is in the number 5* players the elite teams have.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

To the OP’s point, I do wonder why a guy like Shorter flames out. He’s obviously a highly talented kid (#1 WR in his class I believe), so why does he struggle (health issues aside) to make an early impact on the field? Is it coaching? Is it a personality conflict? Or was he just not as good as advertised? I wish the kid luck, but also wish he could’ve figured it out in our program.

 

[Raffycorn]

Well we are missing something now because I do not see the talent emerging like that. Our WR play over the last two years you could argue has cost us big time. That is also poor coaching.

We developed a #200-ish ranked Yetur Gross Matos into an early entry first round pick, and KJ Hamler has gone from a high three/low four star into a potential second day draft pick. Journey Brown and Robert Windsor were the lowest-ranked members of their respective recruiting classes, and were each named to an all-conference team. Shaka Toney was a three star who is an all-conference DE. Same with Will Fries at OT. Jan Johnson’s a walk-on who developed into having an NFL future. Pat Freiermuth was ranked in the 200s and is going to be the favorite to win the Mackey Award next year. At the top end of recruited talent, we developed a kid who had never played the position before into the first sophomore to ever be named conference linebacker of the year.

To be honest with you, it seems like your post is mostly talking about the failed development of...Justin Shorter. Because that’s really the only potential black mark in development - and, given the track record, it seems like that’s an outlier or there’s something different that went on there.

 

[Shadow99]

To be honest with you, it seems like your post is mostly talking about the failed development of...Justin Shorter. Because that’s really the only potential black mark in development - and, given the track record, it seems like that’s an outlier or there’s something different that went on there.

Good post, but even the point you conceded is unwarranted...Shorter was a redshirt freshman this year. Difficult to concede "lack of development" when discussing a redshirt freshman.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

We developed a #200-ish ranked Yetur Gross Matos into an early entry first round pick, and KJ Hamler has gone from a high three/low four star into a potential second day draft pick. Journey Brown and Robert Windsor were the lowest-ranked members of their respective recruiting classes, and were each named to an all-conference team. Shaka Toney was a three star who is an all-conference DE. Same with Will Fries at OT. Jan Johnson’s a walk-on who developed into having an NFL future. Pat Freiermuth was ranked in the 200s and is going to be the favorite to win the Mackey Award next year. At the top end of recruited talent, we developed a kid who had never played the position before into the first sophomore to ever be named conference linebacker of the year.

To be honest with you, it seems like your post is mostly talking about the failed development of...Justin Shorter. Because that’s really the only potential black mark in development - and, given the track record, it seems like that’s an outlier or there’s something different that went on there.

Yeah, player development isn’t the problem. WR was an anomaly. Corley wasn’t hired to coach WRs and seemingly became a failed stop-gap when the team had a chance at Seider. I feel for the guy. And Shorter. And Johnson. Who knows what happened with Shorter this season. But for a RECEIVER, well you know...

 

[BBrown]

Caught a little of the Will Cain radio show the other day and he was discussing what scUM needs to go from good to elite and catch O$U He made the point that the crucial gap is player development.

I think PSU is lacking in player development or at least not developing our talent as well as the elite programs. We have recruited at a high level but cannot get over the hump yet...

Look at our WR's, Cornerbacks Offensive Line even QB improvement is questionable. The development is not happening to allow us to compete at the highest level.

Yes, I know there are exceptions such as the best players on our team, Hamler, Friermuth. Parsons but you can argue they are so good that little development was/is needed to be a star at the college level.

PD is on the coaches but also the players have accountability as well.

I know some people on this board will get offended as they think there are zero areas of improvement for the program but taking off the blue and white glasses, PD definitely is an opportunity to improve.

A couple of things.
Yes the Wr's development or production is worrisome BUT it is a new WR coach. So lets see what happens next season. I do think Franklin, RR and Parker need to take a look at the over all scheme and make some tweaks or adjustments. BUT I didn't blame Corley for the dropped passes last year and I'm not blaming Parker either.

Completely disagree about the OL. If there was any position group that made a bigger improvement other than the RB's I need to see it. We had 2 new starters on the OL in Thorpe and Walker and they did an very good job. The boards favorite whipping boy last year was Fries and he improved a lot. Maybe he was just finally healthy but whatever he was much, much better.

CB's were my biggest issue. Not a good look or year for them or Terry Smith.
I think you'd have to say the Safeties improved. Lamont Wade made a huge improvement from last season.

Clifford is a first year starter and did really well. Lets see how he improves next year. But the line is there for RR to show his QB coaching acumen.

 

[BBrown]

We developed a #200-ish ranked Yetur Gross Matos into an early entry first round pick, and KJ Hamler has gone from a high three/low four star into a potential second day draft pick. Journey Brown and Robert Windsor were the lowest-ranked members of their respective recruiting classes, and were each named to an all-conference team. Shaka Toney was a three star who is an all-conference DE. Same with Will Fries at OT. Jan Johnson’s a walk-on who developed into having an NFL future. Pat Freiermuth was ranked in the 200s and is going to be the favorite to win the Mackey Award next year. At the top end of recruited talent, we developed a kid who had never played the position before into the first sophomore to ever be named conference linebacker of the year.

To be honest with you, it seems like your post is mostly talking about the failed development of...Justin Shorter. Because that’s really the only potential black mark in development - and, given the track record, it seems like that’s an outlier or there’s something different that went on there.

+1.
Although I am disappointed in the play (development) of both Reid and TCF. Both Reid and TCF were 4 star recruits and have regressed this season.

 

[rigi11]

Penn State is averaging top 10 in recruiting recently, but tOSU is perennial top 5. If Our goal is to consistently compete with tOSU then we need to recruit with them.

We need better fans.

 

[gogolion]

To the OP’s point, I do wonder why a guy like Shorter flames out. He’s obviously a highly talented kid (#1 WR in his class I believe), so why does he struggle (health issues aside) to make an early impact on the field? Is it coaching? Is it a personality conflict? Or was he just not as good as advertised? I wish the kid luck, but also wish he could’ve figured it out in our program.

Why did Tate Martell flame out? (sorry that's the only example I can think of at the moment) It happens all the time at lots of programs (even the elite ones like tOSU). Sometimes the ratings services are flat out wrong about a player. The key is to recruit so many 4* and 5* players that a dud here and there doesn't kill you. And that is the difference now between PSU and OSU. When our 5* flames out, it hurts us a lot more than it does tOSU.

Plus, as someone pointed out, Shorter is a RS Frosh for gosh sakes. How can you "flame out" when you haven't even been lit yet? There are tons of examples of players who looked like failures, but blossomed as upper classmen.

 

[bdgan]

All the teams that you think are 'elite'
a) pay their coaches a shit ton more than we do
b) recruit at a higher level

That's why they are better. If you want to call that 'player development,' knock yourself out

I think Franklin is 11th in pay and this will increase with a contract renewal. I doubt he would fire Pry & Rahne if he was allowed to spend more on his assistants.

Franklin has recruited well but I agree he has to do even better in order to become a top 4 team. We can't lose guys like Flemming to OSU. Word is we only got Parsons because of a recruiting infraction.

 

[MJG-90]

Yes the Wr's development or production is worrisome BUT it is a new WR coach. So lets see what happens next season.

WR's developed just fine under Gattis. He left, and we've had turnover since. I agree, wait until next season to see if the consistency in coaching starts to make a difference.

Completely disagree about the OL. If there was any position group that made a bigger improvement other than the RB's I need to see it. We had 2 new starters on the OL in Thorpe and Walker and they did an very good job.

I've been saying for years that OL would take the longest to develop. Franklin and staff stepped in with barely enough scholarship players to field a complete OL. The numbers needed to increase before the quality could increase and now we are finally starting to see the depth in talent that is needed.

Both Reid and TCF were 4 star recruits and have regressed this season.

Did they regress or were they asked to do more than in the past? I'm asking because I really don't know.

 

[BBrown]

WR's developed just fine under Gattis. He left, and we've had turnover since. I agree, wait until next season to see if the consistency in coaching starts to make a difference.



I've been saying for years that OL would take the longest to develop. Franklin and staff stepped in with barely enough scholarship players to field a complete OL. The numbers needed to increase before the quality could increase and now we are finally starting to see the depth in talent that is needed.



Did they regress or were they asked to do more than in the past? I'm asking because I really don't know.

I think its fair to say Reid has regressed. He was playing much better at the end of last season than he did this year. I also don't remember him getting so many PI calls.
The same for TCF.

 

[OaktonDave]

Why did Tate Martell flame out? (sorry that's the only example I can think of at the moment) It happens all the time at lots of programs (even the elite ones like tOSU). Sometimes the ratings services are flat out wrong about a player. The key is to recruit so many 4* and 5* players that a dud here and there doesn't kill you. And that is the difference now between PSU and OSU. When our 5* flames out, it hurts us a lot more than it does tOSU.

I think many of the elite prospects that don't pan out are guys who had great physical attributes and excelled in HS based on the those attributes. The assumption, one that is correct more often than not, is that the physical talent will lead to skill development at the college level. Unfortunately, there are guys that are great physical specimens and good athletes, but they don't have the talent to master football skills enough to compete with other physical specimens and good athletes who can.

 

[bison13]

WIll cain is one of the biggest idiots on the radio, please dont take anything he says seriously.

 

[bvillebaron]

Penn State is averaging top 10 in recruiting recently, but tOSU is perennial top 5. If Our goal is to consistently compete with tOSU then we need to recruit with them.

Absolutely. I guess the fact that Fields, Dobbins and Young are 3 of the 5 finalists for the Heisman is all player development and has nothing to do with natural talent. Seems to me Parsons who never played LB before and Jan Johnson a former walk-on have been developed just fine.

 

[mcgunns]

Somebody just posted PSU's average recruit rankings in another thread:

2012 - 37
2013 - 25
2014 - 22
2015 - 13
2016 - 21
2017 - 17
2018 - 7
2019 - 9


This staff has largely outperformed the recruiting rankings even though recruiting is probably Franklin's greatest strength. You can decide whether you want to credit player development, talent analysis, or X's & O's. You have to pick at least one.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

Penn State is averaging top 10 in recruiting recently, but tOSU is perennial top 5. If Our goal is to consistently compete with tOSU then we need to recruit with them.

But just so we're clear, we're talking about consistently competing with the winningest team over the past 50 years. Yes, we absolutely need to recruit at the highest level to do that. It's also worthwhile to step back and take note of the goal and the company we're keeping.

 

[lockhavenlion3]

Absolutely. I guess the fact that Fields, Dobbins and Young are 3 of the 5 finalists for the Heisman is all player development and has nothing to do with natural talent. Seems to me Parsons who never played LB before and Jan Johnson a former walk-on have been developed just fine.

yeah,b,but don't you know, the kids who've shown development did it on their own. those who haven't progressed are the result of poor coaching. at what point are the kids responsible for their own growth? one would think they're all receiving the same coaching. i'm so confused.

 

[butchnitt]

All the teams that you think are 'elite'
a) pay their coaches a shit ton more than we do
b) recruit at a higher level

That's why they are better. If you want to call that 'player development,' knock yourself out

Does Matt Rhule recruit elite players and does he make more than Franklin? Rhule is 11-1 and has not had a 4 year recruiting cycle.
Now you can start taking your shots.

 

[Raffycorn]

Does Matt Rhule recruit elite players and does he make more than Franklin? Rhule is 11-1 and has not had a 4 year recruiting cycle.
Now you can start taking your shots.

I don’t think anyone’s saying that Rhule and Baylor hasn’t had a nice year. Let’s see him do it for a few more years in a row - albeit in a weaker conference - before we start to compare him to Franklin.

 

[danvillenit]

Does Matt Rhule recruit elite players and does he make more than Franklin? Rhule is 11-1 and has not had a 4 year recruiting cycle.
Now you can start taking your shots.

I think we can all agree he would have a worse record in the BTEast. And you are right, let’s see how they do once the team is all his recruits. Currently ranked 65th for 2020.

 

[cjrugger]

Does Matt Rhule recruit elite players and does he make more than Franklin? Rhule is 11-1 and has not had a 4 year recruiting cycle.
Now you can start taking your shots.

really stupid take dude

 

[AWS1022]

Does Matt Rhule recruit elite players and does he make more than Franklin? Rhule is 11-1 and has not had a 4 year recruiting cycle.
Now you can start taking your shots.

Narduzzi recruits very poorly, yet he won his division last year and almost won it this year...is it his outstanding coaching that does that or the garbage division they play in? Conference strength matters.

 

[Ranger Dan]

But just so we're clear, we're talking about consistently competing with the winningest team over the past 50 years. Yes, we absolutely need to recruit at the highest level to do that. It's also worthwhile to step back and take note of the goal and the company we're keeping.

You are taking my post out of context. I was responding to the OP who was saying that our player development needed to improve. I was merely saying that tOSU was starting with better talent so we need to fix that first if you are going to expect us to really compete.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

You are taking my post out of context. I was responding to the OP who was saying that our player development needed to improve. I was merely saying that tOSU was starting with better talent so we need to fix that first if you are going to expect us to really compete.

I get it. I also think that overall our player development hasn't been a problem. To the contrary, I think it's been very good overall, given this staff continues to generally perform at or above its perceived roster-strength.

And I absolutely agree the slim difference between PSU and OSU (and the few other schools ahead of us) is (and has been) the quantity of the highest-end recruits. My point wasn't to be critical at all. Just to point out the level of competition we're holding as our standard. There is no higher. Especially given our experience since 2011, that's outright amazing. Apologies if you thought I was saying more.