Prosecutor (Frank Fina) who pursued Penn State officials faces questions over his tactics

[wensilver]

Exactly ---->

People who respect the rule of law have been befuddled.

Here we are, years later, with the legal system arguing amongst themselves and pushing massive amounts of paper back and forth about this core issue of Baldwin appearing before the grand jury.

Yet the Commonwealth wants us to believe that Tim Curley, Gary Schultz & Graham Spanier are supposed to just know in an instant that Penn State University General Counsel Cynthia Baldwin, who accompanied these guys to this grand jury hearing, isn't there to....you know, actually represent them in any way or look out for their best interests or anything .....because she signed her name and "Penn State" on a clipboard when she strolled in the door.

ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME?

 

[demlion]

It seems that it is not very close. But then again, at least one person in CYS made a mistake regarding the welfare of TSM children and there is no evidence that anyone in CYS at any level got so much as a bitchy note in their personnel file during the entire reign of Jerry.

No accountability. Its what's for dinner.

 

[Zenophile]

No accountability. Its what's for dinner.

This is fun. Here’s another one for this case:

Hindsight bias. It always knows what yesterday's dinner should have been.

 

[marshall23]

It seems that it is not very close. But then again, at least one person in CYS made a mistake regarding the welfae of TSM children and there is no evidence that anyone in CYS at any level got so much as a bitchy note in their personnel file during the entire reign of Jerry.

No accountability. Its what's for dinner.

I'm sure what you say (about employees of the Commonwealth Childcare Agencies) is 100% true. However, they are merely the beneficiaries of an intricate process to protect someone (or group) that has pulled the strings on this case since day 1. Fina and Feudale got their marching orders somewhere. I can't believe they are that stupid.....even Baldwin knew the GJ process.

 

[NICNEM_PSU80]

Fruits of a poisoned tree. I believe that is what it is called. That throws out substantial so called evidence in the CSS cases and potentially in JS' case.

I would love to hear from some real lawyers on this regarding all of the above.

 

[marshall23]

Fruits of a poisoned tree. I believe that is what it is called. That throws out substantial so called evidence in the CSS cases and potentially in JS' case.

I would love to hear from some real lawyers on this regarding all of the above.

The very roots of Commonwealth justice are poisoned.

 

[Bob78]

It seems that it is not very close. But then again, at least one person in CYS made a mistake regarding the welfare of TSM children and there is no evidence that anyone in CYS at any level got so much as a bitchy note in their personnel file during the entire reign of Jerry.

No accountability. Its what's for dinner.

Dem -
Thinking out loud here, and curious if you have any thoughts on it....

CYS was and is woefully understaffed, undertrained, and, given that, over-authorized wrt power. And yet they seemingly whiffed at JS and TSM, when they may over-react on the side of caution to similar situations with the general population.

People in and around State College seem to talk about the whole case as complex as the interwoven relationships between the heart of personal wealth in the area and the PSU (incl. Corbett) and TSM BOTs; and yet as simple as the fact that one of the two people in power at TSM is a Genovese.

Thoughts, reactions?

 

[delcoLion]

It seems that it is not very close. But then again, at least one person in CYS made a mistake regarding the welfare of TSM children and there is no evidence that anyone in CYS at any level got so much as a bitchy note in their personnel file during the entire reign of Jerry.

No accountability. Its what's for dinner.

I look at these events and think it's institutional failure, and the reasons for it are complex, from fear of losing a position, or a fear for one's personal safety, to disbelief that a trusted person could do evil things.

"They" had Sandusky in '98, but the state agency which could have made a difference fouled up. The church knew the bad priests but didn't go to law enforcement. Up and down the lists of catastrophic events we can find authoritative agencies who were aware of bad people but couldn't prevent bad outcomes.

I don't know what to do anymore. A line in a movie sums it up: "... somebody has to pay..." and in the JS case, LE made sure that was Joe and CSS.

 

[francofan]

I look at these events and think it's institutional failure, and the reasons for it are complex, from fear of losing a position, or a fear for one's personal safety, to disbelief that a trusted person could do evil things.

"They" had Sandusky in '98, but the state agency which could have made a difference fouled up. The church knew the bad priests but didn't go to law enforcement. Up and down the lists of catastrophic events we can find authoritative agencies who were aware of bad people but couldn't prevent bad outcomes.

I don't know what to do anymore. A line in a movie sums it up: "... somebody has to pay..." and in the JS case, LE made sure that was Joe and CSS.

I agree that the root of the fiasco is institutional failure, I just happen to believe that the instituions that failed include the OAG, the governorship, and the judiciary. I believe the win at all cost mentality exhibited by Frank Fina, Joe McGettingan, Jonelle Eschbach, and Tom Corbett is the root of the problem.

CYS certainly could have handled the 98 incident better; but given the known facts of what happened, it is not at all clear that the incident had anything to do with sex. I believe that Ray Gricar made the correct decision at the time not to charge Sandusky.

 

[Pinkhippo PeanutButter]

I believe that Ray Gricar made the correct decision at the time not to charge Sandusky

If charges were brought in 98 it would have been better outcome for everyone regardless of outcome. Even Jerry:

If cleared, it can't be used against Jerry in the future

If convicted, it's minor, compared to what eventual sentence was.

For everyone else, also better either way.

 

[francofan]

If charges were brought in 98 it would have been better outcome for everyone regardless of outcome. Even Jerry:

If cleared, it can't be used against Jerry in the future

If convicted, it's minor, compared to what eventual sentence was.

For everyone else, also better either way.

The 98 incident was investigated and Jerry was cleared, but it was still used against him big time at trial.

It seems like the incident that most doomed Jerry at trial was the 2000 or 2001 (certainly not 2002) incident in the Lasch locker room. McQueary was not exactly sure what he saw or heard, but I am very confident that he did not witness the anal rape listed in the statement of facts in the grand jury presentment. McQueary complained that Eschbach twisted his words and has admitted that he didn't see insertion. It certainly would be nice to see someone from the OAG have to answer for the false grand jury presentment and for their other misdeeds. I hope that Frank Fina does not get off scott free in his disciplinary hearing.

 

[AvgUser]

I hope that Frank Fina does get not off scott free in his disciplinary hearing.

Typo/Missing word there, right?

 

[LurkerLazarus]

At the end of the day, Curley and Schultz pleaded guilty.

I just can't get over that.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I agree that the root of the fiasco is institutional failure, I just happen to believe that the instituions that failed include the OAG, the governorship, and the judiciary. I believe the win at all cost mentality exhibited by Frank Fina, Joe McGettingan, Jonelle Eschbach, and Tom Corbett is the root of the problem.

CYS certainly could have handled the 98 incident better; but given the known facts of what happened, it is not at all clear that the incident had anything to do with sex. I believe that Ray Gricar made the correct decision at the time not to charge Sandusky.

Hard to tell whether or not Gricar made the right call in ‘98. I mean, as clear as it became later that Jerry Sandusky was not just cleaning kids off in the shower that would probably have been a tough case to convict on in ‘98. Even with McQueary’s eye witness testimony in the later case they had to go to how many grand juries (3? 2?) to get a conviction.

 

[step.eng69]

I hope that Frank Fina does get not off scott free in his disciplinary hearing.

Typo/Missing word there, right?

word misplaced? No?

 

[Obliviax]

Hard to yell whether or not Gricar made the right call in ‘98. I mean, as clear as it became later that Jerry Sandusky was not just cleaning kids off in the shower that would probably have been a tough case to convict on in ‘98. Even with McQueary’s eye witness testimony in the later case they had to go to how many grand juries (3? 2?) to get a conviction.

totally agree. you could drive a truck through MM's testimony if not for the testimonies of ten others. And, in '98, taken as its own event, it was fully vetted including two sting operations (to try and trap him into incriminating himself). What convicted JS, finally, was a comprehensive investigation across a ton of allegations and the totality of their circumstantial evidence (six alleged victims, janitor, wrestling coach, MM, etc.).

 

[chrisrn1965]

At the end of the day, Curley and Schultz pleaded guilty.

I just can't get over that.

I feel bad for them. They were in a no win situation. The jury pool was tainted. Their attorneys polled residents in Dauphin county where the jury pool would be drawn from and found that a majority felt that they should be punished even if they did not commit a crime. To go to trial they would be rolling the dice with a possibility of significant jail time and loss of pension.

I selfishly wish the trial had taken place to put some people under oath and cross examination but I did not have to face the consequences that they did.

 

[WyomingLion]

The 98 incident was investigated and Jerry was cleared, but it was still used against him big time at trial.

It seems like the incident that most doomed Jerry at trial was the 2000 or 2001 (certainly not 2002) incident in the Lasch locker room. McQueary was not exactly sure what he saw or heard, but I am very confident that he did not witness the anal rape listed in the statement of facts in the grand jury presentment. McQueary complained that Eschbach twisted his words and has admitted that he didn't see insertion. It certainly would be nice to see someone from the OAG have to answer for the false grand jury presentment and for their other misdeeds. I hope that Frank Fina does get off scott free in his disciplinary hearing.

I agree and hope Fina does not escape unscathed. I would like to see Jonelle have to answer for how she handled the Mike McQ plea to set the record straight in regards to twisting his words. Most of all I would like to see Mike give the uncensored truth in regard to the whole mess. I know when pigs fly. There is a whole list of the “unclean” I wish would/could be held accountable.......

 

[Obliviax]

At the end of the day, Curley and Schultz pleaded guilty.

I just can't get over that.

Get over it....they used five years of their lives fighting charges that wouldn't have stuck in any court in the nation if not for the fact people wanted to find them guilty of something due to the MSM's accounting (see Spanier and the jury member stating that they wanted to go home for the weekend and they just found him guilty of a minor thing to gain unanimity).

Curley and Schultz were just worn down. If you haven't watched prosecutors do this, with unlimited budgets, you are in for a treat. My wife had a case against a civil servant last year. in the state case, she was given a 33 page file as part of discovery. When it went to federal, the same discovery was met with a file of over 300 pages. Who is kidding whom? They new, at the state level, resources weren't there to challenge and even if they were, defense would claim "we just found them". But at the federal level, with different attorneys and lots more to lose, suddenly 270 more pages appear....and this is typical.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

If all it was is a tainted jury and a disgraceful system that caused them to to that, I wish Roberto or one of the other attorneys eventually would say so. Are they barred from talking about this?

 

[drblue1977]

I agree that the root of the fiasco is institutional failure, I just happen to believe that the instituions that failed include the OAG, the governorship, and the judiciary. I believe the win at all cost mentality exhibited by Frank Fina, Joe McGettingan, Jonelle Eschbach, and Tom Corbett is the root of the problem.

CYS certainly could have handled the 98 incident better; but given the known facts of what happened, it is not at all clear that the incident had anything to do with sex. I believe that Ray Gricar made the correct decision at the time not to charge Sandusky.

CYS could have and should have indicted JS as risk in 1998 and put in a protection plan, but they............choose not to. The failure starts there.

 

[Obliviax]

"Worn Down"?
Sure. Maybe.

But that overlooks the elephant in the room:
After ALL OF THOSE YEARS.... it was not until they were literally hours away from having the opportunity to take the stand, that they exercised their option of taking a plea.

The light was not only at the end of the tunnel - it was right in their hands, when they made the decision to plea.

At that point, being "worn down" - as an excuse to not simply fall over the finish line - is a brutally illogical defense.
The journey was over. And then, they shit themselves - and all over the room.

I can't disagree more. With a tainted jury pool and a ton of crazy option in front of them, they took an option that carried no jail time (or so they were told). At an advanced age, they didn't have to worry about not being employable. It may have been different if they were 35. They took a misdemeanor because they wouldn't get jail time, their sustained income wouldn't be threatened and there was no risk of dying in jail.

And, you can flip it...perhaps the prosecution didn't have a case and finally collapsed into a misdemeanor. It was amazing how quickly their declared victory on a case where they spent millions of dollars to get a single, simple misdemeanor. I think the prosecution collapsed and was thrilled to see them take the misdemeanor option so that they could claim victory.

 

[Bob78]

"Worn Down"?
Sure. Maybe.

But that overlooks the elephant in the room:
After ALL OF THOSE YEARS.... it was not until they were literally hours away from having the opportunity to take the stand, that they exercised their option of taking a plea.

The light was not only at the end of the tunnel - it was right in their hands, when they made the decision to plea.

At that point, being "worn down" - as an excuse to not simply fall over the finish line - is a brutally illogical defense.
The journey was over. And then, they shit themselves - and all over the room.

Didn't they also have the threat of having an array of charges being re-filed against them if they chose to go to trial? I could be wrong on that, but I think I recall reading that.

 

[Bob78]

If all it was is a tainted jury and a disgraceful system that caused them to to that, I wish Roberto or one of the other attorneys eventually would say so. Are they barred from talking about this?

I don't know if they are legally barred from talking about it, but as long as they are under their parole time, I'm sure they do not want to poke any bears. I think Tim is nearing the end of his community service time, so I would guess Gary is also. Once that is over, maybe there is an opportunity to talk with the judge about 'good behavior' and see what happens with the balance of their parole time. All just guessing on my part, but I think we are at least a year away from any public statements, outside of Spanier's appeal trial.

There are others at (or who were at) PSU who have a good deal of insight and info who also have chosen to not speak publicly. Examples: Steve Garban, I've been told, supposedly feels great internal guilt over the whole thing. Mark Sherburne (now at Maryland) worked closely with Tim for years and probably knew whatever Tim knew. I know that Mark feels that Tim was as wronged as he possibly could have been. Contacts of people on this board have a lot of info that they have chosen to keep under wraps for whatever reason.
Sometimes people are frozen from taking action due to internal and external pressures that others cannot understand. In this case, so many very good people have chosen to keep what they know to just a very tight circle. Makes me wonder what fears create such pressure.

 

[Bob78]

No



There were more charges on the docket than the one they pled to - - but not a danger of “Re-filing” old (or new) charges over and above the existing slate

Ok, thanks.

 

[marshall23]

At the end of the day, Curley and Schultz pleaded guilty.

I just can't get over that.

Tim and Gary were put between the proverbial rock and hard place. All the heroes who claim otherwise are schmucks who would have done precisely the same thing, given the cards they were dealt.

 

[colt21]

CYS could have and should have indicted JS as risk in 1998 and put in a protection plan, but they............choose not to. The failure starts there.

Absolutely and therein lies the rub.

CYS didn’t need an air tight case to “indicate” JS. They weren’t “prosecuting” him, they were just doing an abuse investigation.

They had enough at that time.

There are three outcomes from CYS’ perspective
1-unfounded - meaning nothing happened and files get purged

2- “INDICATED” - this is the option they should have chosen. It does NOT mean he was guilty of anything - just that there is a 51% chance that something happened. They had enough to indicate and that is the biggest part of this whole fiasco.
Why they didn’t is anyone’s guess but, again, this was NOT a prosecutorial investigation, they had enough to INDICATE him


3-Founded - means it happened and charges are probably on the way.



This is where the entire mess begins -CYS’ failure to Indicate JS!

It’s not just that they failed but by doing so every situation that happens after is then impacted by this failure

 

[Obliviax]

I don't know if they are legally barred from talking about it, but as long as they are under their parole time, I'm sure they do not want to poke any bears. I think Tim is nearing the end of his community service time, so I would guess Gary is also. Once that is over, maybe there is an opportunity to talk with the judge about 'good behavior' and see what happens with the balance of their parole time. All just guessing on my part, but I think we are at least a year away from any public statements, outside of Spanier's appeal trial.

There are others at (or who were at) PSU who have a good deal of insight and info who also have chosen to not speak publicly. Examples: Steve Garban, I've been told, supposedly feels great internal guilt over the whole thing. Mark Sherburne (now at Maryland) worked closely with Tim for years and probably knew whatever Tim knew. I know that Mark feels that Tim was as wronged as he possibly could have been. Contacts of people on this board have a lot of info that they have chosen to keep under wraps for whatever reason.
Sometimes people are frozen from taking action due to internal and external pressures that others cannot understand. In this case, so many very good people have chosen to keep what they know to just a very tight circle. Makes me wonder what fears create such pressure.

great post....i am reminded of hollywood's version of Sully's landing in the river. it all looks so easy in hindsight when 20 years of activity can be lined up and review in a couple of pages. its different when you are living it, have limited information and much of it cannot be verified.

 

[Bob78]

The “conspiracy of silence”. No doubt.


Each individual story is different - but the “broad brush” is the same.......
A tremendous scarcity of openness, honesty, integrity, ethics, and righteousness.
That brush paints over a gigantic swath of participants in this affair - - - anyone who has followed along could compose a looooong list.

Of course, it is human nature to try to exempt those participants that we identify with, or have personal feelings for, from that categorization.
But that’s the bare naked - and, IMO, obvious - truth (and One of the few “truths” present in the entire fiasco)

What do you believe to be the truth? About JS? About McQ? About JVP? About C/S/S? About the OGBOT? (well, I think I know that one, but still...). About TSM? Etc. I know you've stated that you feel JVP was wronged, but I am not sure I clearly recall specifics about the others and the overall. Not doubting that you've posted your thoughts, just that I don't recall your thoughts off the top. (Hell, I rarely recall my own anymore!)

You are 'inside' of PSU. Therefore, your perspective is more unique than most.

 

[marshall23]

great post....i am reminded of hollywood's version of Sully's landing in the river. it all looks so easy in hindsight when 20 years of activity can be lined up and review in a couple of pages. its different when you are living it, have limited information and much of it cannot be verified.

I don't think we can ask anyone to be the Nelson Mandela in this mess. The Commonwealth has demonstrated the willingness to defy accepted legal practices and procedures and use any means necessary to impose its will on all those involved. It isn't even a slight exaggeration to equate the tactics of the OAG to those of any totalitarian regime you wish to name.
The OGBOT acted with impunity, hiring Freeh and giving him more than 8 million dollars to author a "report" with no basis in fact.
Sometimes I think that the magnitude of the injustice is impossible for some to comprehend.

 

[Obliviax]

I don't think we can ask anyone to be the Nelson Mandela in this mess. The Commonwealth has demonstrated the willingness to defy accepted legal practices and procedures and use any means necessary to impose its will on all those involved. It isn't even a slight exaggeration to equate the tactics of the OAG to those of any totalitarian regime you wish to name.
The OGBOT acted with impunity, hiring Freeh and giving him more than 8 million dollars to author a "report" with no basis in fact.
Sometimes I think that the magnitude of the injustice is impossible for some to comprehend.

yeah....however, I wish I could say that central PA is the exception in prosecutorial misconduct. It is at epidemic levels. For many, if not most, prosecutors the "win" is more important than justice, common sense and rehabilitation.

 

[AvgUser]

Tim and Gary were put between the proverbial rock and hard place. All the heroes who claim otherwise are schmucks who would have done precisely the same thing, given the cards they were dealt.

Spanier didn't do the same thing.
And frankly, the charge Spanier was 'convicted' of does not even apply, nor does it to Curley and Schultz.

Follow-up edit: I'm not sure what i would have done in that situation. I would like to think that if I felt I was truly innocent, I would have fought it to the bitter end. Seeing afterwards the corruption and tactics involved in this sordid mess, taking the please C&S did makes some sense. Maybe their lawyers let them know that the State is corrupt and full of lying, sniveling judges and prosecutors.

 

[marshall23]

Spanier didn't do the same thing.
And frankly, the charge Spanier was 'convicted' of does not even apply, nor does it to Curley and Schultz.

Follow-up edit: I'm not sure what i would have done in that situation. I would like to think that if I felt I was truly innocent, I would have fought it to the bitter end. Seeing afterwards the corruption and tactics involved in this sordid mess, taking the please C&S did makes some sense. Maybe their lawyers let them know that the State is corrupt and full of lying, sniveling judges and prosecutors.

Many factors must be considered when you are faced with a wager of less than 1 year or more than 5 years in prison. If your wife is ill, will Josh Shapiro or Hurricane Ditka care for her?

 

[didier]

Absolutely and therein lies the rub.

CYS didn’t need an air tight case to “indicate” JS. They weren’t “prosecuting” him, they were just doing an abuse investigation.

Why they didn’t is anyone’s guess but, again, this was NOT a prosecutorial investigation, they had enough to INDICATE him

Figure that out and you’ll figure out a lot.

 

[didier]

But then again, at least one person in CYS made a mistake regarding the welfare of TSM children and there is no evidence that anyone in CYS at any level got so much as a bitchy note in their personnel file during the entire reign of Jerry.

Who?

 

[didier]

If charges were brought in 98 it would have been better outcome for everyone regardless of outcome. Even Jerry:

If cleared, it can't be used against Jerry in the future

If convicted, it's minor, compared to what eventual sentence was.

For everyone else, also better either way.

So why weren't they brought?

 

[didier]

Hard to tell whether or not Gricar made the right call in ‘98. I mean, as clear as it became later that Jerry Sandusky was not just cleaning kids off in the shower that would probably have been a tough case to convict on in ‘98. Even with McQueary’s eye witness testimony in the later case they had to go to how many grand juries (3? 2?) to get a conviction.

Less a question of the "right call" or not...but rather was his reasoning in making his decision honorable?

 

[colt21]

So why weren't they brought?

Didn’t need charges
Just needed JS Indicated

 

[demlion]

Who?

Dont know, but there HAD TO be one, or CYS would be pretty sorry, wouldnt you think?

 

[didier]

Dont know, but there HAD TO be one, or CYS would be pretty sorry, wouldnt you think?

Wasn't sure if you had a particular name in mind.