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Rudis Wrestling Podcast - Midlands Breakdown

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rmg78

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https://therudis.com/rudis-wrestling-podcast-21-midlands-breakdown/

If you have time to waste definitely give it a listen. If short on time, listen starting around minute 34 or so. Askren gets brutally honest about "Iowa" style for about 10-11 minutes and it made me chuckle. Highlights- Askren-"other than Lee what do they do other than push and handfight", "if you want to compete with Penn St. you have to go to another level", and my personal favorites "Warner was a great wrestler as a youth and now he really doesn't do anything" and Matt Dernlan - "Iowa coaches to a system"-Askren "the system sucks."
 
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Midlands breakdown or Iowa Bash fest? DeSanto, Murin, Lugo, Young, Marinelli, and Cassioppi sure looked active to me. Lee obviously didnt look himself and missing one of the leaders in Kemerer sure hurts. Askren is an idiot.
 
To be fair, Mark and Cenzo saw success with the "pull on the head" routine last night (Cael, Brown, Tank, Nico, others too). It can be an effective strategy against tough competition. The Iowa Style was the template for success for a long time. Rule changes promoting activity and turns, and an innovative program with all the resources and much of the talent have now created a new template (but not with complete abandonment of the earlier one). Honestly speaking, not trying to dig at TnT or anything--I don't know if I've seen evidence that any new methods are being taught/employed in that room much. They still get plenty of talent, and that doesn't always fit the mold. But I'm not seeing lots of new scoring techniques pop up accross the lineup like we see here w/ our team on annual basis. Just my take--and I haven't watched every Iowa match like I have our guys.
 
Ben doesn't pull any punches.

He pretty much doubled down on the same things we were saying last week.

1. Was Rivera stalling by dancing away? NO, he was picking his spots and shooting ... much the way MyMar wrestles Bo.

2. Was Spencer stalling on bottom? YES, grabbing wrists and turtling up is not wrestling.

3. Was the 1st period DQ against against DeSanto ridiculous? YES

4. Was Murin's tough guy act after the match a punk move? YES, if he wants to be a tough guy, try doing it during the 7 minutes of wrestling.

5. Did Marinelli warrant the stall calls, YES, see #2.

6. Has Warner regressed ... or is it digressed? YES, from an aggressive HS wrestler, he has transformed into just another push and pull Hawkeye.

7. Is this 'next year' that Iowa fans have been waiting for? NO, they need to worry more about holding off N Iowa and a few others for 4th.
 
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Askren is a wrestling genius but in my opinion this isn’t a fair analysis. His viewpoint of Iowa is always negative and last year after nationals he said the same stuff even though Iowa led the entire tournament in bonus points. In this podcast, he cherry picked 3-4 matches from the whole tournament to support his preconceived thoughts on Iowa wrestling.
 
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jack66 said:
Ben doesn't pull any punches.

He pretty much doubled down on the same things we were saying last week.

1. Was Rivera stalling by dancing away? NO, he was picking his spots and shooting ... much the way MyMar wrestles Bo.

2. Was Spencer stalling on bottom? YES, grabbing wrists and turtling up is not wrestling.

3. Was the 1st period DQ against against DeSanto ridiculous? YES

4. Was Murin's tough guy act after the match a punk move? YES, if he wants to be a tough guy, try doing it during the 7 minutes of wrestling.

5. Did Marinelli warrant the stall calls, YES, see #2.

6. Has Warner regressed ... or is it digressed? YES, from an aggressive HS wrestler, he has transformed into just another push and pull Hawkeye.

7. Is this 'next year' that Iowa fans have been waiting for? NO, they need to worry more about holding off N Iowa and a few others for 4th.
Click to expand...

I thought Marinelli definitely deserved the stalling calls in the 2nd, but I'm still on the fence concerning the stall call in the 3rd. At the time I thought it was kind of iffy, but you do see it called like that in some matches. I don't think it was so bad that Tom should have acted the way he did afterwards. It was a judgment call as all stall calls are.
 
JohnBasedow said:
Askren is a wrestling genius but in my opinion this isn’t a fair analysis. His viewpoint of Iowa is always negative and last year after nationals he said the same stuff even though Iowa led the entire tournament in bonus points. In this podcast, he cherry picked 3-4 matches from the whole tournament to support his preconceived thoughts on Iowa wrestling.
Click to expand...

I think you make a solid point. I know every coach encourages points to be scored, but the difference is how to go about it. Raptor held back his attacks and lost- if he keeps attacking he would be very hard to beat imo.
 
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JohnBasedow said:
Askren is a wrestling genius but in my opinion this isn’t a fair analysis. His viewpoint of Iowa is always negative and last year after nationals he said the same stuff even though Iowa led the entire tournament in bonus points. In this podcast, he cherry picked 3-4 matches from the whole tournament to support his preconceived thoughts on Iowa wrestling.
Click to expand...
I had to look this up -- not that I disbelieve you, rather wanted to see bonus distribtion.

Turns out Iowa's bonus was well distributed:
WT - #MD - #TF - #F - Tofal Bonus Pts
125 - 0- 2 - 2 - 7.0
133 - DNQ
141 - 1- 0 - 0 - 1.0
149 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 3.0
157 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
165 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
174 - no bonus
184 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 2.5
197 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 2.0
285 - 1 - 0 - 3 - 7.0

What this doesn't tell us is the pace of matches won by fall or regular decision, or lost. I'm too lazy to review all of that.

If some winnable matches were lost due to slow pace or looking busy instead of attacking, then some criticism is warranted in the sense of holding higher standards.

But on the surface, the numbers at nationals don't support the criticism.

Should also note: Iowa scored 4x more bonus at NCAAs than at B10s (30.5 vs. 7.5 pts).
B10s: Lee 4.5, Kemerer 1.0, Stoll 2.0, nobody else scored bonus.

I have no idea what would cause a 4x disparity between those 2 events.
 
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El-Jefe said:
I had to look this up -- not that I disbelieve you, rather wanted to see bonus distribtion.

Turns out Iowa's bonus was well distributed:
WT - #MD - #TF - #F - Tofal Bonus Pts
125 - 0- 2 - 2 - 7.0
133 - DNQ
141 - 1- 0 - 0 - 1.0
149 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 3.0
157 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
165 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
174 - no bonus
184 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 2.5
197 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 2.0
285 - 1 - 0 - 3 - 7.0

What this doesn't tell us is the pace of matches won by fall or regular decision, or lost. I'm too lazy to review all of that.

If some winnable matches were lost due to slow pace or looking busy instead of attacking, then some criticism is warranted in the sense of holding higher standards.

But on the surface, the numbers at nationals don't support the criticism.

Should also note: Iowa scored 4x more bonus at NCAAs than at B10s (30.5 vs. 7.5 pts).
B10s: Lee 4.5, Kemerer 1.0, Stoll 2.0, nobody else scored bonus.

I have no idea what would cause a 4x disparity between those 2 events.
Click to expand...

Good question. I went back and looked at the brackets and I think it’s a combination of a few things that caused the disparity. The smaller brackets lead to less matches against lower level guys. Very few teams can consistently bonus high level competition. That is something that only PSU can claim at this point.

Iowa also only really had 5 “contenders” last year so add in 3 of those guys (Lee, Marinelli and Sorensen) having byes in the pigtails and it compounds it even more.
 
JohnBasedow said:
Good question. I went back and looked at the brackets and I think it’s a combination of a few things that caused the disparity. The smaller brackets lead to less matches against lower level guys. Very few teams can consistently bonus high level competition. That is something that only PSU can claim at this point.

Iowa also only really had 5 “contenders” last year so add in 3 of those guys (Lee, Marinelli and Sorensen) having byes in the pigtails and it compounds it even more.
Click to expand...

So basically, the same primary reasons we haven’t won B1Gs the last two years.... Makes sense.
 
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JohnBasedow said:
Good question. I went back and looked at the brackets and I think it’s a combination of a few things that caused the disparity. The smaller brackets lead to less matches against lower level guys. Very few teams can consistently bonus high level competition. That is something that only PSU can claim at this point.

Iowa also only really had 5 “contenders” last year so add in 3 of those guys (Lee, Marinelli and Sorensen) having byes in the pigtails and it compounds it even more.
Click to expand...

I agree with those as contributing factors but am skeptical of it being much more than 2x out of a 4x delta.

One less round: true, though 4 vs 5 rounds is a 25% change assuming constant rate.

Byes for Lee, Marinelli, Stoll: true. Give Iowa 3 more pins and we're up to about half of that disparity. (Though Marinelli got no bonus at B10s.)

Maybe a little more for Kemerer MFF in B10 consis.

That still leaves about a 30-40% difference on bonus.

I don't want to draw any conclusions before looking at the same data for Penn State and Ohio State. Just finding it fascinating.
 
El-Jefe said:
I had to look this up -- not that I disbelieve you, rather wanted to see bonus distribtion.

Turns out Iowa's bonus was well distributed:
WT - #MD - #TF - #F - Tofal Bonus Pts
125 - 0- 2 - 2 - 7.0
133 - DNQ
141 - 1- 0 - 0 - 1.0
149 - 3 - 0 - 0 - 3.0
157 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
165 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 4.0
174 - no bonus
184 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 2.5
197 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 2.0
285 - 1 - 0 - 3 - 7.0

What this doesn't tell us is the pace of matches won by fall or regular decision, or lost. I'm too lazy to review all of that.

If some winnable matches were lost due to slow pace or looking busy instead of attacking, then some criticism is warranted in the sense of holding higher standards.

But on the surface, the numbers at nationals don't support the criticism.

Should also note: Iowa scored 4x more bonus at NCAAs than at B10s (30.5 vs. 7.5 pts).
B10s: Lee 4.5, Kemerer 1.0, Stoll 2.0, nobody else scored bonus.

I have no idea what would cause a 4x disparity between those 2 events.
Click to expand...



I also looked at this after seeing it a few times. Iowa scored 10.5 Bonus in Consi bracket while having 22 matches after a loss. I'm not sure if this is relevant, just seemd like a lot
 
The biggest difference I notice is against the 2/nd and 3/rd tier competition. PSU seems to find a way to score the big points in the matches they should while still winning the "tough" matches when it counts. Guys like Bo and Nolf are simply so great everyone they wrestle seems to be a tier or two less than themselves.
The point about Warner is true on the surface as he looks bad, but I can't help but think something is wrong physically beyond the ankle injury. He looks tired and lifeless early in matches and that has never been who he is. I hope it is just a lingering illness that he can bounce back from and return to the Jacob Warner who shoots constantly be he winning or losing.
PSU is better at winning scrambles (far ankle pass) than other teams because they work smarter at developing that skill. Cornell guys always seem very good here too. Iowa (and everyone else imo) probably need to put more emphasis in this area. This scrambling didn't really exist in my day, so understanding the skill needed is difficult at best for us old guys. Askren and Cael were both amazing in these situations. Mark Hall takes shot defense to a whole new level as he attacks with his hips before a scramble can even get started. I wonder if that is learned or instinctive?
 
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Ill try to post more stats once I finish Okie State's scuffle report, but PSU starters outperformed Iowa starters in point differential. Iowa's differential (per 7 minutes) was 6.79. PSU was 8.81. So that means PSU was about 30% better. Which makes sense. You might expect Iowa to score 100 this year, with PSU at 130. But then again, I don't know. 100 seems like a stretch at this point.

Iowa did outperform PSU in nearfall points. Young, Lee, and Desanto killed it while Lugo racked them up early against a couple puds.

But the takedown battle was a blowout

You'll just have to take my word for it.
 
Last edited:
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Chickenman Testa said:
Just was on HR. Some serious cognitive dissonance about how their team looks to them and how it looks to the outside world.
Click to expand...

to be fair MANY good HR posters are not around anymore or just lurking without posting. Some pop in only now and then. It really is a shell of what it was 5ish years ago.

Also look at their views and threads, its not that much better than here the last year.

As much I like winning wars, this might be one I regret later on in life ;)
 
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dunkej01 said:
to be fair MANY good HR posters are not around anymore or just lurking without posting. Some pop in only now and then. It really is a shell of what it was 5ish years ago.

Also look at their views and threads, its not that much better than here the last year.

As much I like winning wars, this might be one I regret later on in life ;)
Click to expand...
You mean their counts, not the content -- right?
 
James P. Whitters III said:
The biggest difference I notice is against the 2/nd and 3/rd tier competition. PSU seems to find a way to score the big points in the matches they should while still winning the "tough" matches when it counts. Guys like Bo and Nolf are simply so great everyone they wrestle seems to be a tier or two less than themselves.
The point about Warner is true on the surface as he looks bad, but I can't help but think something is wrong physically beyond the ankle injury. He looks tired and lifeless early in matches and that has never been who he is. I hope it is just a lingering illness that he can bounce back from and return to the Jacob Warner who shoots constantly be he winning or losing.
PSU is better at winning scrambles (far ankle pass) than other teams because they work smarter at developing that skill. Cornell guys always seem very good here too. Iowa (and everyone else imo) probably need to put more emphasis in this area. This scrambling didn't really exist in my day, so understanding the skill needed is difficult at best for us old guys. Askren and Cael were both amazing in these situations. Mark Hall takes shot defense to a whole new level as he attacks with his hips before a scramble can even get started. I wonder if that is learned or instinctive?
Click to expand...
The Hall scrambling combined with hip attacks is something to watch. I will go with skills taught or learned over the years combined with a freakish feel and instinct.
 
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dunkej01 said:
to be fair MANY good HR posters are not around anymore or just lurking without posting. Some pop in only now and then. It really is a shell of what it was 5ish years ago.

Also look at their views and threads, its not that much better than here the last year.

As much I like winning wars, this might be one I regret later on in life ;)
Click to expand...
Even the stable posters from 5, 6 or even 8 years ago had the bitter edge.

We do get the tournament time goofs on here who bring different posting personality, but for the most part many of our goofs stay for very short visits.
 
Wash rinse repeat. Like a broken record. 20 or so Penn State posters have started to sour HR a bit with the chest thumping and arrogance. Slushead is trying to take HR over himself. Am I the only regular Hawkfan on this board?
 
WildTurk said:
Wash rinse repeat. Like a broken record. 20 or so Penn State posters have started to sour HR a bit with the chest thumping and arrogance. Slushead is trying to take HR over himself. Am I the only regular Hawkfan on this board?
Click to expand...

and your point?
 
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WildTurk said:
Wash rinse repeat. Like a broken record. 20 or so Penn State posters have started to sour HR a bit with the chest thumping and arrogance. Slushead is trying to take HR over himself. Am I the only regular Hawkfan on this board?
Click to expand...
Actually, I've soured on HR more than a bit with the Sandusky snark and justifications for it.
 
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