Halfway down the second paragraph.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_Naval_Academy&oldid=813771460
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_Naval_Academy&oldid=813771460
SIAP - Cadets get to the Naval Academy Wikopedia page.
- Thread starter Roar More
- Start date
That is great...
“Approximately 1,200 "squids" enter the academy each year in order to become some of America's most useless officers. Their life ambitions involve spending large chunks of time at sea on crowded ships that often collide with one another. How many cities can a ship take? None. Zero. Cadets from West Point continue to win wars and lead our sons and daughters, while cadets from Annapolis spend their time wearing floaties in the shallow end of the pool. Tell me - how often is Annapolis recognized beyond the United States (hell, even in the continental USA) for being a prestigious leadership academy? Never. The Naval Academy is where honor and old football programs go to die. Go Army, Beat Navy.”
“Approximately 1,200 "squids" enter the academy each year in order to become some of America's most useless officers. Their life ambitions involve spending large chunks of time at sea on crowded ships that often collide with one another. How many cities can a ship take? None. Zero. Cadets from West Point continue to win wars and lead our sons and daughters, while cadets from Annapolis spend their time wearing floaties in the shallow end of the pool. Tell me - how often is Annapolis recognized beyond the United States (hell, even in the continental USA) for being a prestigious leadership academy? Never. The Naval Academy is where honor and old football programs go to die. Go Army, Beat Navy.”
Also...
Motto "Abandon la Ship!"
Motto in English
Abandon the Ship!
Academic staff
510 older squids
Students 4,576 Squids
Motto "Abandon la Ship!"
Motto in English
Abandon the Ship!
Academic staff
510 older squids
Students 4,576 Squids
The Army cadets seem to be feeling their oats after beating Navy for the 2nd time in ... 16 yrs. The Navy has owned Army for 2 decades now, losing only 4 times in 20 yrs.
Take a look across all sports and the picture is more one sided - in favor of Army. Football is the grail however on a national stage, and with 14 consecutive wins Navy did own Army. However every match or game against one another whether sport or academic competition has meaning and purpose. I just love the rivalry of mutual respect - at least mostly.
As an Army vet I had a theory for the lopsidedness of the streak Navy had going. The streak started in 2002 and went until 2015. During most of this time we were in an active shooting war on two fronts. I could see it being an easier sell to go to the Naval Academy vs West Point. Now this could all just be my BS but it is what I like to tell myself. LOL!!
As a Navy vet, I have a theory as well. Navy is better! That's what I like to tell everyone.
It comes down to exceptions to entrance criteria and allowable height/weight deviations from their services standards for football players. Navy lets it slide to a greater degree on both accounts. That and that alone account for the differences this century sans the last 2 years.
Not true. First they recruit from the same pool. Second many of the Navy players fly or become Marines/EOD/SEALs, thus seeing action at the same or similar rate. Third the standards are ridiculously high at both places; Navy had an all American center for example who, for his efforts, had to lose about 120lbs to graduate and get into medical school.
Success begets success. Navy hired the best triple option name in the business in 2002; Army was still plodding along running a pro-style offense until 3 years or so ago when their current coach arrived. He had learned it as an assistant at....Navy. In the interim was Navy a more attactive place to recruits? Probably. But not for the reason you suggest. Army wouldn’t and shouldn’t make that excuse. They have the right system and a good coach and magically it is competitive again.
Absolutely false. These are ridiculous excuses that suddenly don’t apply with the right system/coach. If that kid makes the field goal at the end of the game I suppose it was because of Navy bending the rules.
I have taught at West Point. I can attest my assertion is true from first hand experience. I have had numerous football players in my classes and have seen the entrance numbers for each class for several years. Army did not allow football players to be 120 lbs overweight by the height/weight requirements of their service as in the anecdote you brought forth. That was not permitted while I was there (in the 2000s). I also had a good friend in USMA admissions that I've talked to about this very subject.
Unless you were in admissions at Navy and can counter the information that I have about the comparison of admissions exceptions at each school, I am inclined to believe my friend in USMA admissions.
You’re making two different arguments. I can’t and won’t speak to what Army does or allows once admitted. That’s up to them and they alone own it.
But to suggest as you just did that there are different ADMISSIONS standards is preposterous. They are both outstanding institutions and recruit from the exact same pool of kids. The fact that Army has been light years behind their competitors in having a functional athletic department that filters down to their teams is not anyone else’s fault or problem. And yes, I did a stint in admissions at Navy, not that that granular detail, nor any excuse, is needed to see the larger picture.
Ah, 4 losses over 20 yrs equals two decades. Leave it to an Army vet to get it wrong.
I wouldn't say its all in the acceptance allowance being less for Navy. I have had students who have played for both (Navy wing back a few years back, and current back up RB on Army) and the current one was allowed by Army but not Navy, while the prior one was the opposite.
Aldon, I spoke of acceptance criteria, not admission standards. If you've done a stint in admissions then you know that minimum admission standards and the academic profile of the average non-recruited athlete are entirely different things.
I'm not trying to take away from these kids because they are exceptional young men and women at two of the most difficult institutions at which to gain admission in the nation (USMA was the #1 most difficult while I was there). But there is a striking difference in the academic profile of the average cadet (50% at USMA are valedictorian or salutarian of their HS) and that of the average recruited athlete. This was easily seen in both the profile of each class by category and in the classroom.
And yes, I had a 2nd part of the argument about Navy allowing their players to slide on the height weight requirements MUCH more than does Army. According to 247, Navy has 10 players over 300 lbs (including a 330 lb OL) and Army has 3, (300, 301, and 305). Navy has 21 guys that are 290lbs or higher, Army has 6. The Navy allows you to be 241 lbs at a maximum if you are 6'8". So Navy has 21 guys who exceed their services height/weight by at least 50 lbs or more, some in excess of 100 lbs. The Army simply doesn't allow this on the scale that Navy does it and in football it is a clear competitive advantage.
“Navy let’s it slide to a larger degree on both accounts.” False.
First, of course there is a difference. Like at any D1 school, there are athletes there that otherwise wouldn’t gain admission. But Navy “let’s that slide” to the same degree army does. Again, they are the exact same kids, and honestly this is a shameful and rather pathetic thing to say, for a multitude of reasons.
Second, that Army doesn’t allow certain higher weights is entirely their choice and problem. The navy players have to be commissioned within standards, and are. This also isn’t new at navy and was the same policy when Army was previously competitive. It’s a complete bs excuse and should be beneath an institution such as West Point and its supporters. That Navy and Air Force lap West Point in overall athletic success and competence is solely the responsibility of Army’s athletic department.
What’s you’re argument here? Army has people over 300 lbs and so does Navy. Does Army say to some 300 pounders you’re too big, but to the next guy, we’ll let it slide?
Every football player at Navy that’s “out of limits” has to pass the same physical fitness test (and lose weight to be within limits) before they graduate that the rest of the midshipmen do every semester. Those 300 lb linemen run 1.5 miles in <10:30 and graduate within weight limits. They are just given waivers their first 7 semesters and bike the aerobic portion of the fitness test until their last semester.
I’m 99% sure army is like this too. I’ve competed against Army in another sport and they had multiple people that would have been out of standards at Navy.
They are identical institutions. It’s pure jealously and insecurity that one has far surpassed the other in athletic competence and success over the last 2 decades (not just football). It’s changing slowly (and I welcome this) so hopefully the excuses go away as well.
Other service academies restrict the height/weight upon entrance to the academy and limit and monitor the amount that a cadet might be out of tolerance for their sport. This is a healthy and sensible (not football first) approach to staying within their service's requirements. See the excerpts from the 2 articles posted below where clearly the Navy is playing by a different set of rules in how they treat their football players. As if the numbers I had posted above weren't evidence enough, I am giving you the written evidence on the difference in how the situation is treated directly from a coach and a player's mouth.
The service academies also in the past have taken different approaches on allowing athletes out of their commitments if an opportunity at playing professionally as well. There are numerous examples of that. It comes down to interpretation of how to enforce rules and regulations.
Height and weight requirements. They differ slightly by academy, but at Air Force, a 6'4 applicant cannot weigh more than 221 pounds for admission -- and must also not weigh more than that upon graduation. In some cases at the academies, athletes can be over the height or weight limits but must still adhere to stringent body fat restrictions. This makes recruiting offensive linemen very difficult. "I'd love to have a bunch of 320-pound guys with good feet," Calhoun said. "We've never had a 285-pound kid, which is very small for a Division I offensive lineman. We usually average 255 pounds with our offensive line."
https://www.sbnation.com/college-fo...0/college-football-military-service-academies
Right guard Ben Tamburello is 6-2 and weighed 290. Navy standards call for a man that height to tip the scales at no more than 211 pounds. Tamburello doesn’t remember what it was like to be small. Even in high school he played between 275 and 285 pounds.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...81055c7a05f_story.html?utm_term=.bc01a5aff11a
Jealous garbage. Beneath an institution like West Point. What complete and utter nonsense.
Goodbye.
I went to USNA and exchanged at USAFA for a semester and I can promise you the football players do not abide by the admission requirements. In reference to your first article
“Height and weight requirements. They differ slightly by academy, but at Air Force, a 6'4 applicant cannot weigh more than 221 pounds for admission -- and must also not weigh more than that upon graduation. In some cases at the academies, athletes can be over the height or weight limits but must still adhere to stringent body fat restrictions. This makes recruiting offensive linemen very difficult.”
That’s purely the author of the articles opinion, he then tries to justify his argument with a quote from USAFA’s coach to make it sound like his article is 100% accurate.
I had a cadet at USAFA in my squad that was 6’3” 280 straight out of high school (no prep school), and I can promise you that he did not weigh 221 the summer he checked in and then was 280 in the fall.
What you read and reality are 2 different things.
Please read paragraph 4.2 on page 8
http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/usafa/publication/usafai36-2002/usafai36-2002.pdf
When you know what you’re talking about, I’ll be here listening.
According to a report on CBS sports about five years ago, since 9-11 six times more West Point graduates had been killed in combat action than Annapolis grads. To the extent that helped Navy's recruiting can never be proven but it would have to had at least some effect.
Did you read said paragraph of your link? It CONFIRMS what I wrote about Air Force establishing criteria for weight adjustments AFTER enrollment even having it go through their human performance lab as part of the approval process. Further, it CONFIRMS what the article that I linked had claimed about Air Force and confirmed the quote from Air Force's coach.
Can you produce similar documentation for Navy? Is Navy establishing similarly stringent criteria for football player weights? Because I seriously doubt that any health and fitness professional would sign off on an individual to be 330 lbs one year but required to lose over 100lbs for commissioning in a matter of months. That is a major liability and flat out unhealthy.
You are correct my link does CONFIRM that Air Force establishes weight criteria after enrollment, it also CONFIRMS that football players are not subject to these weight criterias.
The publication from af.mil says:
“4.2. Cadets may be authorized a temporary adjustment to cadet BF standards for athletic performance reasons. Cadets request this temporary athletic body fat adjustment through the following process:...”
This allows any football player for USAFA to obtain a waiver to play at any weight and not be held to the same standards as the rest of the Cadets.
Further, your second link, mentions that Gaston and Tamburello had body fat percentages of 12% after football, this is well below the 22% that the article mentions as being a requirement to pass the PRT. They weren’t required to unhealthily crash diet as you stated they were. They had to get their bodyfat below 22%. They exceeded this and dropped it to 12%...
Your argument that Navy football has an advantage over USAFA and USMA because Navy has no bodyfat standards is blatantly false.
There is a high probability that you have spent too much time in a sub. The problem, I believe, is your reading comprehension.
1) The cherry picked portion of the quote that you just posted does not imply that cadets can "play at any weight" as you insist. If not taken out of context, it is even more obvious that there is a very established multi-level approval process for a cadet to play at specific healthy weights and criteria established for that individual by the human performance lab consisting of qualified health and fitness scientists. Hence, no 330lbs guys.
2) You claim that I said Navy has no body fat standards. Reread the entire thread and tell me where I posted or implied this. I specifically stated that your branch lets the standards slide more. That is what is happening with 6'3" 330 lb Bryan Barrett, 321 lbs Mike Flowers, 318 David Fourney, 315 lbs Chris Pearson, and the other significantly in excess of 300lbers on your roster that are not on Army or Air Force's rosters. And no, 330lb Bryan Barrett is not making body fat in a healthy way in less than a year.
Look, you guys keep moving the goal posts and posting links to things that prove my points if you actually read them. I think the Naval Academy is one of the finest institutions in the world, but they are not without flaws. And their approach that yields a competitive advantage in football is simply a choice, with positives and negatives. It's OK for your to admit this.
I’ve spent my time landing on an aircraft carrier, not on a sub... nice try though.
1) So 6’ 310 on USAFAs roster with a BMI (not sure what metric you want to compare rosters on, but don’t just use the eye test) of 42 is higher than anyone on Navy’s roster (even that 6’3” 330 lb guy you mention). I don’t care that Navy has more people over some arbitrary cutoff of 300. My point is that every service academy has exceptions for football players to weigh more than regular cadets/midshipmen. Navy isn’t any more or less lenient than the others.
2) So you’re implying that Navy let’s the standards slide more? But what about that 6’ 310 lb guy, Air Force lets the standard slide more than Navy for just this one player, but no other players? All the Academies let the standard slide for football players. Nobody knows, maybe USAFA and USMA don’t care about giving up 20 lbs at the cost of speed.
I’ve never moved the goal posts, just stated that each service academy is equally as guilty of moving the weight requirements for football players.
1) So 6’ 310 on USAFAs roster with a BMI (not sure what metric you want to compare rosters on, but don’t just use the eye test) of 42 is higher than anyone on Navy’s roster (even that 6’3” 330 lb guy you mention). I don’t care that Navy has more people over some arbitrary cutoff of 300. My point is that every service academy has exceptions for football players to weigh more than regular cadets/midshipmen. Navy isn’t any more or less lenient than the others.
2) So you’re implying that Navy let’s the standards slide more? But what about that 6’ 310 lb guy, Air Force lets the standard slide more than Navy for just this one player, but no other players? All the Academies let the standard slide for football players. Nobody knows, maybe USAFA and USMA don’t care about giving up 20 lbs at the cost of speed.
I’ve never moved the goal posts, just stated that each service academy is equally as guilty of moving the weight requirements for football players.
We keep moving the goal posts? Look in the mirror pal.
Why are those precious 5 cadets and ONLY those 5 allowed to be so heavy? Why did you say that Navy “let’s that slide to a greater degree” referring specifically to admitting football players with absolutely zero evidence, implying Navy takes academic risks other academies don’t? Explain that or apologize for it, because that’s complete bs.
You then say that the 14-year streak is solely because of these different weight standards; how do you then explain that it was an even series up until the streak began (actually Army was ahead)? The all-American center I referred to graduated in 2000; his junior year they lost to Army. So did those “advantages” magically disappear that year, or could it be that you are just full of shit?
Oh, and that Air Force coach you keep citing, take a look at his military career. Lol talk about a “competitive advantage”.
Army’s slide into athletic irrelevance is THEIR OWN FAULT. If they want to tell certain kids they can major in or weigh or service select whatever, that’s completely up to them. They recruit from the EXACT SAME POOL of kids that Navy does; my neighbor who’s son swims at Navy and just kicked the shit out of Army was BEGGED to go to West Point. Give me a break with this ignorant jealous nonsense.
Alright, I’m not going to argue ad infinitum with you guys rehashing the same points over and over. You are welcome to continue to disregard the obvious differences in the rosters that I have shown as evidence. You are welcome to take out of context and misinterpret the actual policies that you have posted. You are welcome to point out single ill-defined exceptions and measures such as BMI which are not correlated very well with BF% among athletes as an argument against clear trends supported by significant % of the Navy roster which is clearly different than the other academies.
It is clear to me that you guys will salute the flag pole and not ask questions. I will simply say that I am very thankful that enough of our officers of all services are intellectually confident enough to examine things critically and come to their own conclusions. But good day to you gentlemen.
It is clear to me that you guys will salute the flag pole and not ask questions. I will simply say that I am very thankful that enough of our officers of all services are intellectually confident enough to examine things critically and come to their own conclusions. But good day to you gentlemen.
I must’ve not gotten a waiver for that from West Point.
You (again) didn’t answer those questions. You (again) moved the goalpost.
Guy that’s two seats down from me on the trading floor is West Point, and we are both laughing at this nonsense you keep posting.
You’re talking to two posters who have direct, first-hand experience in these matters.
Look inward and stop blaming/disparaging Navy for Army’s relative shortcomings. Had you actually attended WP you wouldn’t be doing that.
I have said that the Naval Academy, Air Force and USMA as well are fantastic institutions and have been very complementary of the young men and women who attend. That does not dismiss the evidence that has been presented that the Navy approaches the rules for football players differently. You have thus far been quite proficient at plugging your ears, eyes, and mind to the evidence that I and your buddy have posted. La la la is not a valid argument.
I’ve taught a significant number of football players at West Point in the sciences and math over several years. So I do have considerable direct experience, not as cadet, but as an instructor where I was provided considerably more access to processes than a cadet. I still mentor former cadets who are successful officers. Further, the “had I actually attended” comment is really unbecoming. I’m not sure what you believe that you are implying but it simply reflects poorly on you for thinking you should go there.
Can we agree to disagree on this? Because you and the WP colleague who was laughing at you, ahem with you, and all others who have in some shape or form contributed or have been a product of the academies and the services are people that I truly hold in high regard.
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