Small town America is punishing itself with opiates.

[rudedude]

Agree but I wouldn't call it a disease. Its a weakness. Some people are more prone to those weaknesses than others. No good answers and that is why it is such a mess. Fact is, if someone wants to commit slow suicide, not a lot can be done. Why are people still smoking? Its nuts.

It is not a weakness. It is a studied and researched difference in addicts' brains. This stands for any substance that becomes addictive. You often find addictions running in families so you have a genetic component. It is more than just saying no, it is the substance hijacking a vulnerable brain. Unfortunately teenagers are really vulnerable
due to their developing brains and are
more susceptible to becoming addicted. Some people can use substances and not become addicted to them, others aren't so lucky.

 

[Nitt1300]

Maybe a conversation for a different time/thread, but how is that "throwing away a lot of people"? I'd counter by saying, if coke or heroin etc were legal I still wouldn't touch it; and the money made from taxing the s**t out of the stuff could pay to help curb the demand you rightly alluded to, among many other things.

I meant that addicts don't have much of a life, and don't add any value to society- regardless of who supplies the drugs

 

[AldenT]

I meant that addicts don't have much of a life, and don't add any value to society- regardless of who supplies the drugs

Unfortunately true. While your solution is ideal, I've never seen it work with the scale needed. Mine at least removes all criminality from the scenario and stops the supply of petty criminals or worse to the prison system. It also adds a ton of tax revenue to the kitty.

 

[Nitt1300]

Unfortunately true. While your solution is ideal, I've never seen it work with the scale needed. Mine at least removes all criminality from the scenario and stops the supply of petty criminals or worse to the prison system. It also adds a ton of tax revenue to the kitty.

my worry is where do addicts get the money? most of them steal it now, how would that change?

 

[84Lion]

Drugs should be legalized. Harder drugs can and should be controlled - as prescriptions are - but the illegality of buying and using the drugs should be done away with

Read this book:

Amazon product ASIN B06XY6Y78W
and you will understand why the government does not want to legalize drugs. It's a dirty secret that they'd rather you not know.

This may explain why the local authorities don't go after dealers as they should.

 

[Rhino80]

Noone forces these folks to start. Everyone knows what heroin and Meth do to you. I don't care how predisposed you are to addiction, if you don't try it you won't become an addict. So tired of the excuses. There is one person at fault for becoming a heroin addict, it's not big pharma, it's not the dealers, it's the person who decides to put that crap in thier bodies. Personal accountability is almost extinct. Luckily , with all the other crap they are putting in it these days, they usually die quickly. Hate to say it that way but saves them the slow death and just gets it over with.

 

[demlion]

A couple weeks ago I brought up Purdue Pharma in relation to this question, and wondered how many billions they made. Still don't know, but I just saw this.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexmo...15-list-of-richest-u-s-families/#233da90975e0

 

[demlion]

Noone forces these folks to start. Everyone knows what heroin and Meth do to you. I don't care how predisposed you are to addiction, if you don't try it you won't become an addict. So tired of the excuses. There is one person at fault for becoming a heroin addict, it's not big pharma, it's not the dealers, it's the person who decides to put that crap in thier bodies. Personal accountability is almost extinct. Luckily , with all the other crap they are putting in it these days, they usually die quickly. Hate to say it that way but saves them the slow death and just gets it over with.

Many people were prescribed Oxy by their doctors. They eventually got hooked and then the prescribing docs got clamped by the feds and quit prescribing. The only way to make the deathly sickness stop is to first snort, then shoot, heroin.

You really know nothing about addiction to opioids.

 

[LionJim]

A couple weeks ago I brought up Purdue Pharma in relation to this question, and wondered how many billions they made. Still don't know, but I just saw this.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexmo...15-list-of-richest-u-s-families/#233da90975e0

Charming.

 

[Mile High Lion]

A couple weeks ago I brought up Purdue Pharma in relation to this question, and wondered how many billions they made. Still don't know, but I just saw this.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexmo...15-list-of-richest-u-s-families/#233da90975e0

Just a thought regarding the comments I see here and elsewhere and the lack of concern for people overdosing on heroin or other opiates because it was their choice to take the drugs to the don't have much of a life or don't add much to the world... Even if you care absolutely nothing about the person taking heroin, and I do care, realize there are other victims. Those people have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and often times spouses and children. I know of a case where a father went looking for his son worried knowing he was fighting an addiction only to find him overdosed and dead. It's hard to see where that father wasn't a victim.

 

[psute]

Opioids have their place; trauma, immediately post op (another trauma) and hospice care. For chronic pain, all that happens is increased tolerance. Western medicine is enamored with the latest offerings from big pharma. There are other alternatives...

 

[demlion]

Just a thought regarding the comments I see here and elsewhere and the lack of concern for people overdosing on heroin or other opiates because it was their choice to take the drugs to the don't have much of a life or don't add much to the world... Even if you care absolutely nothing about the person taking heroin, and I do care, realize there are other victims. Those people have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and often times spouses and children. I know of a case where a father went looking for his son worried knowing he was fighting an addiction only to find him overdosed and dead. It's hard to see where that father wasn't a victim.

In the New Yorker story I posted, the opening part is about paramedics coming to a ball field to treat 2 parents who were overdosed and unconscious. Their THREE children, ages 7,10 and 13, were there, freaking out, the 2 younger ones yelling Wake up! at their parents. How exactly do you go on in your 8th grade year when you've had your classmates see that?

People who shrug that sort of painful disaster off are a part of the reason we have this problem.

 

[tgar]

There has always been a heroin market. It did not become a really big deal until 3 things happened: 1) the rise of OxyContin, and 2) the notion on the part of the Doctors that they could treat chronic pain with something really no different than Morphine; and 3) when the feds arrested the Dr. Feelgoods and restricted the supply of Oxy because people were becoming addicted, the addiction did not go away just because the scrips did. Enter the illegal heroin dealers, who are only distinct from Purdue Pharma and the docs because Purdue and the docs could claim what they did was legal.

You can go on and say this is a character issue if you want, but that approach is exactly what brought us to this place. Here is another clue: jail does not work, either.

I would include a fourth factor. Markets. The stuff is cheap and plentiful, the dealers realize they have a massive number of potential customers and will not be selling weed in America forever. There seems to be little obstruction to dealing heroin in this country, that is for sure.

 

[83wuzme]

There has always been a heroin market. It did not become a really big deal until 3 things happened: 1) the rise of OxyContin, and 2) the notion on the part of the Doctors that they could treat chronic pain with something really no different than Morphine; and 3) when the feds arrested the Dr. Feelgoods and restricted the supply of Oxy because people were becoming addicted, the addiction did not go away just because the scrips did. Enter the illegal heroin dealers, who are only distinct from Purdue Pharma and the docs because Purdue and the docs could claim what they did was legal.

You can go on and say this is a character issue if you want, but that approach is exactly what brought us to this place. Here is another clue: jail does not work, either.

Not entirely accurate.
I guarantee you a lot of the people dying from overdoses these days never had prescriptions for Oxycontin or any other opioid and probably weren't even out of elementary school when the feds started seriously restricting it.

 

[demlion]

I would include a fourth factor. Markets. The stuff is cheap and plentiful, the dealers realize they have a massive number of potential customers and will not be selling weed in America forever. There seems to be little obstruction to dealing heroin in this country, that is for sure.

If, like me, you find yourself unabe to grasp how it could happen that the USA would consume 90% of the world's opiates, then read Dreamland. It got me closer, though I still done fully get it.

 

[Rhino80]

I get it , My heart isn't of stone. It's a travesty, I moved away from PA many years ago after college. There haven't been many months gone by that I haven't received news that a friend or someone I knew have OD'd or been put in jail. I grew up around Benton , in the middle of nowhere, and it's a huge problem there. One of my close friends recently went to jail , both his brothers OD'd. Three kids , 2 dead one in jail for a decade. There are alot of factors to blame , but it should start with the individual

 

[demlion]

Not entirely accurate.
I guarantee you a lot of the people dying from overdoses these days never had prescriptions for Oxycontin or any other opioid and probably weren't even out of elementary school when the feds started seriously restricting it.

Give me the data then.

 

[83wuzme]

It is not a weakness. It is a studied and researched difference in addicts' brains. This stands for any substance that becomes addictive. You often find addictions running in families so you have a genetic component. It is more than just saying no, it is the substance hijacking a vulnerable brain. Unfortunately teenagers are really vulnerable
due to their developing brains and are
more susceptible to becoming addicted. Some people can use substances and not become addicted to them, others aren't so lucky.

I would argue that addiction is not entirely a genetically based risk. What accounts for some family members falling into it and some with almost the exact same genes avoiding it ? And how do some some people manage to overcome their addictions, despite their genes ?

 

[Abro1975]

http://www.revcom.us/a/china/opium.htm

How China Wiped out it's huge Drug Problem (over 70 million junkies)

"Under that old society, many people were strung out on the pipe. There were 70 million junkies in China -- addicted to opium, morphine and heroin. Half-starving laborers used the sweet opium dreams to cover the pain of hunger and hopelessness. And the lazy rich used drugs to fill up their empty hours. In some areas everyone even children, smoked opium. In the cities, tiny bottles of drugs were sold on the streetcorners like ice cream. People got high on the job.The people of old China suffered terribly from this drug addiction. Many poor people used their pennies on the pipe instead of food. Addicts often abandoned their children or even SOLD their children to buy more drugs. Addicted women were often forced to become prostitutes and many died of diseases."

Problem solved in 3 years:

http://www.revcom.us/a/china/opium.htm

 

[Nitt1300]

In the New Yorker story I posted, the opening part is about paramedics coming to a ball field to treat 2 parents who were overdosed and unconscious. Their THREE children, ages 7,10 and 13, were there, freaking out, the 2 younger ones yelling Wake up! at their parents. How exactly do you go on in your 8th grade year when you've had your classmates see that?

People who shrug that sort of painful disaster off are a part of the reason we have this problem.

people who don't sell or take drugs are not the problem, we're only the ones being asked to pay for it all

I'm sick of all this blame everyone but the guilty nonsense

 

[massimoManca II]

Noone forces these folks to start. Everyone knows what heroin and Meth do to you. I don't care how predisposed you are to addiction, if you don't try it you won't become an addict. So tired of the excuses. There is one person at fault for becoming a heroin addict, it's not big pharma, it's not the dealers, it's the person who decides to put that crap in thier bodies. Personal accountability is almost extinct. Luckily , with all the other crap they are putting in it these days, they usually die quickly. Hate to say it that way but saves them the slow death and just gets it over with.

They should just say "No"

 

[demlion]

people who don't sell or take drugs are not the problem, we're only the ones being asked to pay for it all

I'm sick of all this blame everyone but the guilty nonsense

Actually all problems which damage kids belong to everyone. We can deal with those who damage the kids quickly and limit the damage to the kids, or we can say "not my problem." But it will be everyone's problem.

 

[rudedude]

I would argue that addiction is not entirely a genetically based risk. What accounts for some family members falling into it and some with almost the exact same genes avoiding it ? And how do some some people manage to overcome their addictions, despite their genes ?

I did not state it is just genetic based, genetics plays a role in it but there are many other factors that go into it too. Addicts brains are more sensitive to substances than a typical person. The drug overwhelms their dopamine centers and gives them a feeling stronger than orgasm, one of the highest dopamine producing behaviors in humans .

 

[Cletus11]

I would include a fourth factor. Markets. The stuff is cheap and plentiful, the dealers realize they have a massive number of potential customers and will not be selling weed in America forever. There seems to be little obstruction to dealing heroin in this country, that is for sure.

you nailed the huge issue why it is now such a huge problem....technology. Why can you now buy heroin (or an equivalent opiod) for $10, because the Internet and technology have allowed it to be manufactured in garages across the country with a few hundred dollars worth of equipment bought at home depot and from Amazon. If an opioid was $50-$100 a pop, 90% of the people taking it could not afford it even if they tried to steal for it. But the fact that the supply of the drug due to being able to manufacture it anywhere for pennies can be purchased just about anywhere for the same cost as a pack of cigarettes make it available for mass usage.

 

[Nitt1300]

Actually all problems which damage kids belong to everyone. We can deal with those who damage the kids quickly and limit the damage to the kids, or we can say "not my problem." But it will be everyone's problem.

That's kind of my point- right now it IS our problem. But pretending anybody other than the addict is the cause isn't an answer

 

[Peetz Pool Boy]

Actually all problems which damage kids belong to everyone. We can deal with those who damage the kids quickly and limit the damage to the kids, or we can say "not my problem." But it will be everyone's problem.

Your response intruiged me.

How does this country best-address the growing opiate problem, particularly as it pertains to kids?

 

[demlion]

Your response intruiged me.

How does this country best-address the growing opiate problem, particularly as it pertains to kids?

Better minds than mine have no answer. But jail for users does not work. Rehab that gives people a chance to realize a better life is the only thing that works. Oh, and the medical and drug industries need to pay for that rehab. They provided the permission and the tools.

 

[michnittlion]

Really tough to get to zero dealers. Always someone seeing as a profitable alternative to a "regular job." If more drugs get lost to the police, the price just goes higher, and the economy picks a "new drug", with my apologies to Huey Lewis.
Typical complex solution- 1. people need to feel they are valued and have a future , 2. jobs, 3. some activity or recreation not drug related. 4. appropriate police and judicial enforcement. ( I have no idea what that should truly be). 5. Better medical insurance for psychiatric services. Many hospitals have minimized their psych services as a loss leader. Need to reverse that trend.

This one's the biggest one --- IMO.

I had it good. My parents weren't rich. But I did grow up in a stable family in a primarily blue-collar, working class (but still plenty of jobs) county that bordered Detroit. I always felt valued and I always felt optimistic about my future.

I also recently lived in Kentucky, in a county that literally bordered Appalachia. Can those coming-of-age teenagers say the same thing? Not as much.

Thus they look elsewhere ........

 

[83wuzme]

Give me the data then.

Here's some data that support my point that I obtained from a US News and World Report review of overdose deaths from 2015.
The deaths were grouped into age categories : 15 - 24, 25 - 34, etc. I am going to focus on the 15 - 24 age group because this is the least likely age group to ever have been prescribed Oxycontin, followed by the 25 - 34 group. This is because Oxycontin was most frequently prescribed to older persons with chronic conditions like rheumatoid arthritis until the availability of it was tightened around a decade ago.
If the Oxycontin prescription as addiction source narrative is correct, one would expect to see similar or lower overdose death rates from heroin in the 15 - 24 age bracket compared to overdose deaths by other drugs. But in 2015, just the opposite was the case.
People aged 15 - 24 accounted for 6.5% of cocaine ( including crack ) overdose deaths in the US and 7.6% of benzodiazopine deaths. But the 15 - 24 bracket accounted for 12.7% of all heroin deaths that year. If Oxycontin was the one thing fueling the rise in opioid addiction, you would not expect to see something like this.

 

[demlion]

Here's some data that support my point that I obtained from a US News and World Report review of overdose deaths from 2015.
The deaths were grouped into age categories : 15 - 24, 25 - 34, etc. I am going to focus on the 15 - 24 age group because this is the least likely age group to ever have been prescribed Oxycontin, followed by the 25 - 34 group. This is because Oxycontin was most frequently prescribed to older persons with chronic conditions like rheumatoid arthritis until the availability of it was tightened around a decade ago.
If the Oxycontin prescription as addiction source narrative is correct, one would expect to see similar or lower overdose death rates from heroin in the 15 - 24 age bracket compared to overdose deaths by other drugs. But in 2015, just the opposite was the case.
People aged 15 - 24 accounted for 6.5% of cocaine ( including crack ) overdose deaths in the US and 7.6% of benzodiazopine deaths. But the 15 - 24 bracket accounted for 12.7% of all heroin deaths that year. If Oxycontin was the one thing fueling the rise in opioid addiction, you would not expect to see something like this.

For many years, more than a decade, Oxy was prescribed to thousand of people who got it to SELL. That's what a pill mill IS.

 

[artsandletters]

Is that the church on the Turnpike??

Yes.

 

[NJPSU]

Popeyes is a killer too, but you live to like 50 or 60's

It's worth it.

 

[Nitt1300]

Just a thought regarding the comments I see here and elsewhere and the lack of concern for people overdosing on heroin or other opiates because it was their choice to take the drugs to the don't have much of a life or don't add much to the world... Even if you care absolutely nothing about the person taking heroin, and I do care, realize there are other victims. Those people have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters and often times spouses and children. I know of a case where a father went looking for his son worried knowing he was fighting an addiction only to find him overdosed and dead. It's hard to see where that father wasn't a victim.

I agree.


These drug users leave victims everywhere in their wake- their families, the people they steal from, the healthcare system they overload, strain on first responder resources, and the taxpayers who pay for the damage they cause- their victims are pretty much all of the rest of us.


Since “just say no” hasn’t worked and the “war on drugs” was lost decades ago, the question is what to do about them now? Maybe just keep blaming everyone else?

 

[demlion]

That's kind of my point- right now it IS our problem. But pretending anybody other than the addict is the cause isn't an answer

It will always be our problem so long as we intend to live in the future, which is, after all the only place we can live. They are kids. They will be here until after we are dead. We can fix it now or pay the price later. It's our problem too.
Finally you simply cannot say that dumping billions of doses of highly addictive drugs on the market has no effect on addiction rates, especially when you sold it by claiming it was non-addictive.

 

[demlion]

For many years, more than a decade, Oxy was prescribed to thousand of people who got it to SELL. That's what a pill mill IS.

I've quoted these stats before: in 6 years they sold 780 million hits of opioids JUST IN WV. over 400 hits for every man woman and child. Anyone with a claimed back twinge got a month or 2 month supply. If you set out to turn a whole state unto junkies, You cold not have done it better.

 

[83wuzme]

For many years, more than a decade, Oxy was prescribed to thousand of people who got it to SELL. That's what a pill mill IS.

The active ingredient in Oxycontin is oxycodone, which has been around for a long time. One Oxycontin just has a lot more oxycodone in it than one Percocet.
I would ask why the overdose rate continues to climb since the DEA really clamped down on opioid prescribing ? I'd like to see some actual data that explains how Oxycontin is continuing to cause this to happen.

 

[demlion]

I agree.


These drug users leave victims everywhere in their wake- their families, the people they steal from, the healthcare system they overload, strain on first responder resources, and the taxpayers who pay for the damage they cause- their victims are pretty much all of the rest of us.


Since “just say no” hasn’t worked and the “war on drugs” was lost decades ago, the question is what to do about them now? Maybe just keep blaming everyone else?

Purdue Pharma quoted "studies" which it claimed showed Oxy only had a 1% addiction rate. It was a lie, and they made billions with that lie. Now we need money to treat their addicts. I say we ought to get it from them.

 

[Nitt1300]

It will always be our problem so long as we intend to live in the future, which is, after all the only place we can live. They are kids. They will be here until after we are dead. We can fix it now or pay the price later. It's our problem too.
Finally you simply cannot say that dumping billions of doses of highly addictive drugs on the market has no effect on addiction rates, especially when you sold it by claiming it was non-addictive.

I've got no problem with putting a bunch of big pharma execs up against a wall - then what?

 

[demlion]

The active ingredient in Oxycontin is oxycodone, which has been around for a long time. One Oxycontin just has a lot more oxycodone in it than one Percocet.
I would ask why the overdose rate continues to climb since the DEA really clamped down on opioid prescribing ? I'd like to see some actual data that explains how Oxycontin is continuing to cause this to happen.

Oxy od's dropped with the drop in the prescription rate. Heroin filled the gap.

 

[demlion]

I've got no problem with putting a bunch of big pharma execs up against a wall - then what?

Use their money to rehab those who can be rehabbed, and care for the rest until they die.