Superintendent candidate job offer withdrawn due to calling females ladies.

[PS4814]

In business I NEVER refer to gender. I try to use the term ‘folks’. I sometimes use the term ‘guys’ if I know the group.

This right here - especially with this topic being someone in education where the terminology is constantly changing and evolving you can't use a term like "ladies" without it coming across as outdated and potentially offensive. I can appreciate that there is no malice behind the usage, but it's a generational thing that people need to be aware of. Here's the original article if anyone is interested: https://www.gazettenet.com/Easthampton-School-Committee-superintendent-search-50473440

I was recently out to lunch with my in laws who are in their 70's. My father in law made the comment "I'll take care of you" when the waitress was taking our order in reference to the tip. She was a young teenager and you could just see the cringe on her face and how uncomfortable that comment made her. Once again there was no ill will coming from my FIL as he was trying to make a nice gesture but from the other side it was obviously not well received.

 

[Obliviax]

This right here - especially with this topic being someone in education where the terminology is constantly changing and evolving you can't use a term like "ladies" without it coming across as outdated and potentially offensive. I can appreciate that there is no malice behind the usage, but it's a generational thing that people need to be aware of. Here's the original article if anyone is interested: https://www.gazettenet.com/Easthampton-School-Committee-superintendent-search-50473440

I was recently out to lunch with my in laws who are in their 70's. My father in law made the comment "I'll take care of you" when the waitress was taking our order in reference to the tip. She was a young teenager and you could just see the cringe on her face and how uncomfortable that comment made her. Once again there was no ill will coming from my FIL as he was trying to make a nice gesture but from the other side it was obviously not well received.

It is always good to refer to a female wait staff as "sweetie". So he should have said 'I'll take care of you, sweetie".

 

[BringBackStoneys]

Our world has changed for the worse. This is what happens when you cave in to ludicrous requests/demands instead of standing your ground and saying "F**k Off".

Yes, this is an brilliant strategy when interviewing to lead a school.

 

[heckmans]

View embedded media

What a loser. Everyone know the proper way to address people with XX chromosomes is "birthing people." If this guy calls himself a candidate to lead an entire school district with that kind of insensitivity, well......then he dodged a giant bullet. I really feel sorry for the kids and parents who have to endure such nonsense. Vote in your local school board elections!

 

[Online Persona]

This right here - especially with this topic being someone in education where the terminology is constantly changing and evolving you can't use a term like "ladies" without it coming across as outdated and potentially offensive. I can appreciate that there is no malice behind the usage, but it's a generational thing that people need to be aware of. Here's the original article if anyone is interested: https://www.gazettenet.com/Easthampton-School-Committee-superintendent-search-50473440

I was recently out to lunch with my in laws who are in their 70's. My father in law made the comment "I'll take care of you" when the waitress was taking our order in reference to the tip. She was a young teenager and you could just see the cringe on her face and how uncomfortable that comment made her. Once again there was no ill will coming from my FIL as he was trying to make a nice gesture but from the other side it was obviously not well received.

The problem here in my view is that good values aren't always being passed down to the next generation now. A cringe from a young person on simply an outdated phrase or a door being held likely says that they aren't taught that they should be treated like a lady or expect to have the door held for them or get taken care of on a tip. Oh well, it's their loss really. There are still people with good values and those that act like gentlemen. I suppose many of the current single mother to 2 or 3 kids with different fathers generation won't ever know what that is.

 

[heckmans]

It is always good to refer to a female wait staff as "sweetie". So he should have said 'I'll take care of you, sweetie".

I prefer the Lloyd Christmas greeting of "Excuse me, Flo"

 

[Lion84]

Interesting how the offended people know for a fact that the person was indeed trying to offend them - the lack of tolerance to others in unreal anymore and it goes in all directions - we are devolving into a miserable society where so many people are grasping at any reason to be offended or disrespected with every interaction - trust me you will know when I am trying to offend you - there will be no grey area then.

 

[SR108]

Interesting how the offended people know for a fact that the person was indeed trying to offend them - the lack of tolerance to others in unreal anymore and it goes in all directions - we are devolving into a miserable society where so many people are grasping at any reason to be offended or disrespected with every interaction - trust me you will know when I am trying to offend you - there will be no grey area then.

Our Country worries and obsesses about proper pronouns and greetings while China and Russia plot and plan how to dominate the world militarily and economically.

 

[ryoder1]

Should’ve just been a teachable moment. Definitely a misstep by the candidate, especially in a formal written communication where he had time to review/reconsider.

I still use “Guys” when speaking to my team at work, which is 2/3 women. Many changed to “Y’all” or “Folks” in recent years but it just sounds forced and weird… I could never get there. I work for a fairly progressive company with a diverse workforce and nobody seems to mind “guys”. But it might just take one offended person…

I would switch if I were you. Just say "Hi All"

 

[ryoder1]

It is always good to refer to a female wait staff as "sweetie". So he should have said 'I'll take care of you, sweetie".

I think "Hun" or "Honey" would work well.

 

[ryoder1]

Dear Sir, or Dear Ma'am ?

Dear He, She or It,

 

[bison13]

Interesting how the offended people know for a fact that the person was indeed trying to offend them - the lack of tolerance to others in unreal anymore and it goes in all directions - we are devolving into a miserable society where so many people are grasping at any reason to be offended or disrespected with every interaction - trust me you will know when I am trying to offend you - there will be no grey area then.

The people who are offended never care about the other person's perspective. As mentioned before, older people use different vocabulary and vernacular that is customary for them but not to a teen or young adult. We have many people from other cultures who get confused by salutations and other items to where they offend those they are speaking to when in reality the other person is doing what they believe is the most respectful things they can do.

 

[Obliviax]

LOL..I just heard that the NYT inclusion department is encouraging using the term "Folxs". (Folks)

That is a new one on me.

 

[Online Persona]

The people who are offended never care about the other person's perspective. As mentioned before, older people use different vocabulary and vernacular that is customary for them but not to a teen or young adult. We have many people from other cultures who get confused by salutations and other items to where they offend those they are speaking to when in reality the other person is doing what they believe is the most respectful things they can do.

This is a symptom of my broader point. I think they have effectively broken down the family unit enough that many younger people are never taught manners, appropriate interactions, let alone good social etiquette or even simply giving a pleasant greeting or being nice and kind to others.

Somehow this has been translated into, instead of younger generations learning social etiquette passed down for generations, we are told that older people who have been taught proper social etiquette need to change and learn new supposedly anti-offensive terms and norms. Well, when you've already had 5 or more decades of acting like a gentleman or interacting in social settings using the set of norms passed down for many generations, then a newly defined and constantly changing set of rules is not something you are going to adapt to well.

Plus, the new set of rules isn't better than the old. I'd rather that people hold doors and say sir and ma'am instead of whatever gender-neutral or fluid terms they are coming up with today.

 

[Obliviax]

This is a symptom of my broader point. I think they have effectively broken down the family unit enough that many younger people are never taught manners, appropriate interactions, let alone good social etiquette or even simply giving a pleasant greeting or being nice and kind to others.

Somehow this has been translated into, instead of younger generations learning social etiquette passed down for generations, we are told that older people who have been taught proper social etiquette need to change and learn new supposedly anti-offensive terms and norms. Well, when you've already had 5 or more decades of acting like a gentleman or interacting in social settings using the set of norms passed down for many generations, then a newly defined and constantly changing set of rules is not something you are going to adapt to well.

Plus, the new set of rules isn't better than the old. I'd rather that people hold doors and say sir and ma'am instead of whatever gender-neutral or fluid terms they are coming up with today.

Well, I love my LG HGTV 4K.

 

[ryoder1]

This is a symptom of my broader point. I think they have effectively broken down the family unit enough that many younger people are never taught manners, appropriate interactions, let alone good social etiquette or even simply giving a pleasant greeting or being nice and kind to others.

Somehow this has been translated into, instead of younger generations learning social etiquette passed down for generations, we are told that older people who have been taught proper social etiquette need to change and learn new supposedly anti-offensive terms and norms. Well, when you've already had 5 or more decades of acting like a gentleman or interacting in social settings using the set of norms passed down for many generations, then a newly defined and constantly changing set of rules is not something you are going to adapt to well.

Plus, the new set of rules isn't better than the old. I'd rather that people hold doors and say sir and ma'am instead of whatever gender-neutral or fluid terms they are coming up with today.

It's now "Boss" not sir. So we got that going for us.

 

[BringBackStoneys]

This is a symptom of my broader point. I think they have effectively broken down the family unit enough that many younger people are never taught manners, appropriate interactions, let alone good social etiquette or even simply giving a pleasant greeting or being nice and kind to others.

Somehow this has been translated into, instead of younger generations learning social etiquette passed down for generations, we are told that older people who have been taught proper social etiquette need to change and learn new supposedly anti-offensive terms and norms. Well, when you've already had 5 or more decades of acting like a gentleman or interacting in social settings using the set of norms passed down for many generations, then a newly defined and constantly changing set of rules is not something you are going to adapt to well.

Plus, the new set of rules isn't better than the old. I'd rather that people hold doors and say sir and ma'am instead of whatever gender-neutral or fluid terms they are coming up with today.

I’m not buying that any of this is really new - it’s just that most of the posters here have reached the age where they don’t feel like adapting to an ever-changing world. Hell, this whole thread reads like an episode of Archie Bunker.

 

[ryoder1]

Except we're not the racist, intolerant ones.

 

[pennstatepelly]

Is Chief ok?

 

[PS4814]

Our Country worries and obsesses about proper pronouns and greetings while China and Russia plot and plan how to dominate the world militarily and economically.

We have the largest economy in the world - heck California Texas and New York each have economies that are larger than Russia's, and we out spend every other country by orders of magnitude in regards to the military. You seriously don't think our country doesn't care about its role as a superpower? C'mon now.

 

[doctornick]

As I understand it, he was replying to a note received from the chair of the search committee. He knew her name and title.

If she signed her name ‘Cynthia’ on the inbound email, then he should reply with ‘Dear Cynthia’. If she had a formal signature block with her title then he should have used ‘Chair Kwiecinski,’. While he should not have had the offer withdrawn, this is not hard to get right.

Similarly, if a woman was applying to work for a male judge, military or elected official and addressed Hon. Stabbin, Lt. Col. Persona, or Representative Spinmeister as ‘Guys,’ she probably isn’t getting the job either.

This is basically my take. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the offense wasn't that "ladies" was intrinsically wrong, but that it was used in a situation when a more formal greeting would be expected. If I were negotiating a contract, I would be using more formal nomenclature as well.

That being said, I think the response was an overreaction. The offense doesn't seem sufficient IMHO to warrant withdrawing the offer nor do I think referring to it as a "microaggression" is warranted. I think this would have been more appropriate as a teachable moment to explain why that was not the right term to use and then oved on with the hiring process. Though I suppose a company might not feel it is worth bothering if they had other qualified candidates (it's sometimes easier to just find someone else than mold someone to your liking).

That being said, ladies is entirely appropriate and non-offensive term in the right context. And I would submit that anyone who would get offended by someone using it to refer to a number of female peer colleagues is just looking to start a fight. It's a polite and fair term.

 

[Cletus11]

This is basically my take. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the offense wasn't that "ladies" was intrinsically wrong, but that it was used in a situation when a more formal greeting would be expected. If I were negotiating a contract, I would be using more formal nomenclature as well.

That being said, I think the response was an overreaction. The offense doesn't seem sufficient IMHO to warrant withdrawing the offer nor do I think referring to it as a "microaggression" is warranted. I think this would have been more appropriate as a teachable moment to explain why that was not the right term to use and then oved on with the hiring process. Though I suppose a company might not feel it is worth bothering if they had other qualified candidates (it's sometimes easier to just find someone else than mold someone to your liking).

That being said, ladies is entirely appropriate and non-offensive term in the right context. And I would submit that anyone who would get offended by someone using it to refer to a number of female peer colleagues is just looking to start a fight. It's a polite and fair term.

So if you say 'Gentlemen' in the formal greeting, that is fine, I have used it many times. So what is the equivalent for women? I mean people do say Ladies & Gentlemen where they seem equivalent to me.

 

[Obliviax]

So if you say 'Gentlemen' in the formal greeting, that is fine, I have used it many times. So what is the equivalent for women? I mean people do say Ladies & Gentlemen where they seem equivalent to me.

If they are Jewish, use the term "Yentlmen". Works perfectly.

 

[PSU 12046]

From Collins Dictionary:

You use lady when you are referring to a woman, especially when you are showing politeness or respect.

You say 'ladies' when you are addressing a group of women in a formal and respectful way.
[politeness] - Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

A lady is a woman from the upper classes.

In Britain, Lady is a title used in front of the names of some female members of the nobility.

 

[Obliviax]

From Collins Dictionary:

You use lady when you are referring to a woman, especially when you are showing politeness or respect.

You say 'ladies' when you are addressing a group of women in a formal and respectful way.
[politeness] - Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

A lady is a woman from the upper classes.

In Britain, Lady is a title used in front of the names of some female members of the nobility.

you'll never cut it as a school superintendent.

 

[doctornick]

So if you say 'Gentlemen' in the formal greeting, that is fine, I have used it many times. So what is the equivalent for women? I mean people do say Ladies & Gentlemen where they seem equivalent to me.

Ladies. It's perfectly fine.

In this specific case, the issue is that the person sent an e-mail addressing some people as "Ladies" during the process of negotiating a contract instead of using their proper (known) names (e.g. Ms. Smith, Dr. Jones, Chairman Williams, etc.) which would have been more appropriate. You are in the midst of a formal negotiation, you should use a formal address for the people you are directly talking to.

 

[doctornick]

In this specific case, it would have been appropriate to address the e-mail as:

"Chair Kwiecinski and Executive Assistant Suzanne Colby,"

Or perhaps:

"Ms. Cynthia Kwiecinski and Ms. Suzanne Colby"

As opposed to:

"Ladies,"

 

[PSUWrestlingFanSince2011]

Ladies. It's perfectly fine.

In this specific case, the issue is that the person sent an e-mail addressing some people as "Ladies" during the process of negotiating a contract instead of using their proper (known) names (e.g. Ms. Smith, Dr. Jones, Chairman Williams, etc.) which would have been more appropriate. You are in the midst of a formal negotiation, you should use a formal address for the people you are directly talking to.

Yes I agree but it's still bs

 

[Online Persona]

Yes I agree but it's still bs

I'll tell you what it does when ladies take the use of that term to rescind an offer of employment and refer to it as a microaggression. It makes the organization realize that those 2 women should not represent them in any way.

If they take offense to the use of the term ladies, label it a microaggression, and make significant rash personal decisions because of it then you can be certain that other major problems within your organization will arise due to those 2 women. It is petty and vindictive and the actions that were not appropriate are those of these 2 women.

 

[PSUWrestlingFanSince2011]

I'll tell what it does when ladies take the use of that term to rescind an offer of employment and refer to it as a microaggression. It makes the organization realize that those 2 women should not represent them in any way.

If they take offense to the use of the term ladies, label it a microaggression, and make significant rash personal decisions because of it then you can be certain that other major problems within your organization will arise due to those 2 women. It is petty and vindictive and the actions that were not appropriate are those of these 2 women.

Yup

 

[Indian rocks rich]

Worked for Sinatra.

He used dames to

 

[ryoder1]

I'll tell you what it does when ladies take the use of that term to rescind an offer of employment and refer to it as a microaggression. It makes the organization realize that those 2 women should not represent them in any way.

If they take offense to the use of the term ladies, label it a microaggression, and make significant rash personal decisions because of it then you can be certain that other major problems within your organization will arise due to those 2 women. It is petty and vindictive and the actions that were not appropriate are those of these 2 women.

This most likely worked out for the best with this guy not getting the job. He was headed for some kind of run in with these two "ladies" down the road.

 

[Cletus11]

This most likely worked out for the best with this guy not getting the job. He was headed for some kind of run in with these two "ladies" down the road.

I am in the business world and for somebody to target being called a 'lady' and feeling disrespected to the point of it going this far means one of three things:

1. There was interactions before between this guy and those women that was negative or these women felt slighted in some way such that this situation was triggered.

2. These women just didn't want this guy and were looking for a reason to get rid of him and used woke politics to make it happen.

3. These women are just woke and the type of people looking to pick fights with men.

 

[bvillebaron]

Our Country worries and obsesses about proper pronouns and greetings while China and Russia plot and plan how to dominate the world militarily and economically.

BINGO.

 

[Online Persona]

I am in the business world and for somebody to target being called a 'lady' and feeling disrespected to the point of it going this far means one of three things:

1. There was interactions before between this guy and those women that was negative or these women felt slighted in some way such that this situation was triggered.

2. These women just didn't want this guy and were looking for a reason to get rid of him and used woke politics to make it happen.

3. These women are just woke and the type of people looking to pick fights with men.

Women in power positions sometimes can be very conniving. I've experienced it before when I went to teach at a private high school and was hired at a higher starting salary because I had taught at a top 10 university and ran the lab program there. I think our female principal felt threatened by my experience. She was used to new teachers coming in with less experience and I believe she saw me as a threat.

She even blamed me one time for a piece of equipment breaking in another teacher's classroom because I didn't stop in the middle of my class when they sent me an email to see if I had the appropriate equipment in my classroom. I thought come on, I can't control what goes on in another classroom and was focused on my own class. At any rate, I walked away from that job after 2 years for some family reasons and simply because this principal was not someone I wanted to be around.

 

[PSUeng]

I read this whole thread and no on has said why using ladies is bad. I guess, I will start saying it more until someone gets mad at me. Then I will say what's wrong with saying ladies. I cannot wait till I can retire.

 

[Online Persona]

I read this whole thread and no on has said why using ladies is bad. I guess, I will start saying it more until someone gets mad at me. Then I will say what's wrong with saying ladies. I cannot wait till I can retire.

Unretire is the thing these days man. A lot of people voted for it. You'll see it in your 401k statements.

 

[bison13]

Unretire is the thing these days man. A lot of people voted for it. You'll see it in your 401k statements.

Come on man.... Biden is creating jobs all over the place (its the retirees who have to go back to work, and the middle class getting a second job)

 

[PS4814]

I’m not buying that any of this is really new - it’s just that most of the posters here have reached the age where they don’t feel like adapting to an ever-changing world. Hell, this whole thread reads like an episode of Archie Bunker.