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Team Penalty Points

PSUbluTX

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2018
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From tonight's ISU v. Rider meet. Does this deserve a penalty point for either team? Ref gave one to both. Far cry from what we've seen from others.





Then, after ~1:30 into the very next match the ref did not call this hands to the face despite appearing to be in perfect position to see it. A little odd. It became moot when the Rider kid stuck Gomez shortly thereafter, but still. I guess this ref didn't get the memo on the hands to the face emphasis this season.

 
In the first video, it almost looks as if the Iowa State wrestler was patting his opponent on the back as if to say, "geez, sorry man, good match though". And given that the Rider wrestler wasn't looking and was bent over, not to mention just getting decked, it's not that surprising that he might get a little bit chippy. Admittedly, I don't know the wrestlers and don't have any context about how the match had gone previous to the fall. In general I really appreciate a ref that controls things and doesn't take crap, but I'm not convinced that either deserved a penalty point in this case.
 
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I'd agree that Mackall probably didn't think he was taunting Tropea (though we don't know what he said after removing his ankle bands). And the taps to the back weren't forceful like a face mush. But he couldn't have waited until Tropea stood up, head up, no longer in a defenseless position? And both hands ... who does that?

So I might have given Mackall a (not very stern) verbal, until Tropea shoved back. With the retaliation, absolutely docking both guys to send the message to the remaining wrestlers on both teams.
 
My first thought was the back taps were harmless but might have been a bit longer than necessary. I guess the double points sends a message without putting one team behind the other.
 
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I hate the idea of 'team' penalty points. The day will come (probably has already) when it decides a dual. Anything that occurred within a match can be rectified in that match, anything extracurricular or done by coaches could be resolved via some other means - ejection from the match, after mat sanctions, or what have you.

Help me out but I can't think of another sport where you can deduct points from a team score.

Can you imagine if Bo's simply tossing his headgear to his corner after the biggest match of possibly the decade had cost PSU the title, outrageous that it is even a possibility.
 
I hate the idea of 'team' penalty points. The day will come (probably has already) when it decides a dual. Anything that occurred within a match can be rectified in that match, anything extracurricular or done by coaches could be resolved via some other means - ejection from the match, after mat sanctions, or what have you.

Team penalty points have decided the outcomes of quite a few high school matches I've attended. I believe they have determined the winners of college matches as well, though off the top of my head I can't remember a recent match where penalty points changed the outcome of the match.

Wrestling is somewhat unique, in that it's an ongoing team competition, but it's compromised of 10 individual competitions in college, more in high school, and even more in middle school, etc. In that context, I'm not sure how your points are valid. Illegal activity in a match usually costs that individual wrestler, as their opponent is awarded a point. Similarly, illegal actions by a coach can lead to their being ejected, though it usually is handled as a warning or a deduction of a team point (which has nothing to do with any of the 10 individual matches). In the first case, the incident took place after the match was completed, and a winner had been declared. There isn't anything that can be adjusted on that match.

Help me out but I can't think of another sport where you can deduct points from a team score.

Well, again it's a bit of apples and oranges, as most competitions have things that are unique to them. Wrestling has the individual competitions that are melded into a team competition. In football, which is one ongoing competition, illegal activity becomes a foul against the team that committed it (either a player or a coach), which gives the opposing team an advantage. In basketball, incidents that are equivalent to the deduction of team points are technical fouls. So while a team score isn't deducted for a technical foul, the opposing team gets to take a free throw -- almost giving the team an addition point or points, which is basically the same thing. In soccer, players and coaches can be red carded (for those that are sticklers for the rules, in FIFA matches coaches are dismissed but not red carded, while in US high school competitions, coaches are red carded) after a match is completed. That doesn't impact the score of the competition, but it usually results in the player or coach not being able to participate in the next match. In some soccer tournaments, teams do have points deducted for any red cards that are issued to them (not from the score of the match, but from their tournament score which determines who makes the semis and the finals). In the broader context, what wrestling does isn't that far out of the norm.

So I might have given Mackall a (not very stern) verbal, until Tropea shoved back. With the retaliation, absolutely docking both guys to send the message to the remaining wrestlers on both teams.

Pretty much the way most refs would have handled it. As Tropea's reaction was almost immediate, it didn't allow for the ref to just deal with Mackall, and decide whether to give him a verbal lashing or deduct a team point. Once Tropea reacted, the ref had to deduct a point from both teams.

While Mackall's actions don't seem to be of a malicious intent, he's more at fault here than anyone. At every level he's wrestled, after the match the wrestlers would shake hands in the center of the mat. For whatever reason, he elected to alter that process, and I don't blame Tropea for the way he reacted.
 
To give a summation of Team Point Deduction penalties;

Unsportsmanlike conduct - nonparticipating team personnel; or wrestlers before and after a match: One team point. Second offense, same individual, and it's another team point and the offender is removed from the event.

Flagrant misconduct: One team point, and ejection from the event.

Control of Mat Area: One team point for each violation (it's in the rulebook as "failure to comply", I've seen many "reminders" given over the years)
 
It looked like a short drum solo to celebrate the win. Unfortunately he chose his opponents back. I would have taken offense.
 
It looked like a short drum solo to celebrate the win. Unfortunately he chose his opponents back. I would have taken offense.
I believe many would. However...the best retaliation is to get back in the room, improve, and take it out on opponents on the mat.
 
I hate the idea of 'team' penalty points. The day will come (probably has already) when it decides a dual. Anything that occurred within a match can be rectified in that match, anything extracurricular or done by coaches could be resolved via some other means - ejection from the match, after mat sanctions, or what have you.
Just last weekend this happened:
https://www.pennlive.com/highschool...estling-win-over-red-land.html?outputType=amp

Help me out but I can't think of another sport where you can deduct points from a team score.
I've seen football games where scores were nullified for unsportsmanlike penalties. It's rare because those flags are usually after the play, but does happen. Typically it's a receiver hot dogging on a long catch and run -- such as pointing the ball at the defender before crossing the goal line.
 
I thought a match this year went to criteria cause of penalty points. I might be wrong but I thought Wisconsin won on criteria but should have won by one or two points.
 
My first PSU Big Ten match we went to in the last 90's was iirc against Michigan, The coach rushed on the mat and lost a team point, they ended up losing by one point. If he hadn't rushed the mat it would have been tied, no idea who would have won on criteria.
 
My first PSU Big Ten match we went to in the last 90's was iirc against Michigan, The coach rushed on the mat and lost a team point, they ended up losing by one point. If he hadn't rushed the mat it would have been tied, no idea who would have won on criteria.
Fyi...There was no criteria in the 90's. Dual would have ended as a tie.
 
I thought a match this year went to criteria cause of penalty points. I might be wrong but I thought Wisconsin won on criteria but should have won by one or two points.
See the link in my post just before yours. Not just went to criteria for penalty points, but also decided by fewest penalty points criterion.
 
See the link in my post just before yours. Not just went to criteria for penalty points, but also decided by fewest penalty points criterion.
I looked up the meet I was referring to above. It was Wisconsin vs Nebraska. Wisconsin won 22-21 on criteria.
 
I hate the idea of 'team' penalty points. The day will come (probably has already) when it decides a dual. Anything that occurred within a match can be rectified in that match, anything extracurricular or done by coaches could be resolved via some other means - ejection from the match, after mat sanctions, or what have you.

Help me out but I can't think of another sport where you can deduct points from a team score.

Can you imagine if Bo's simply tossing his headgear to his corner after the biggest match of possibly the decade had cost PSU the title, outrageous that it is even a possibility.
If I'm not mistaken Iowa was dropped from a tie for 4th (podium) at the 2016 NCAA finals to 5th place due to a team-point deduction.
Wow. That's a hell of a way to lose a meet. I don't know what to even think about that.

If I'm not mistaken, at the 2016 NCAA finals Iowa ended up 5th, one point out of a tie with VT for 4th (podium) -- because they had a team point deducted.
 
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