Things are changing

[nitlion6]

Penn State first place 5th time last 6 years.
Okie State 2nd place but no team championship for 10 years.
Ohio State tied with Virginia Tech for third.

Previous 10 champs
Penn State 5
Iowa 3 but none in past 6 years.
Ohio State, last year
Minnesota but they will fall off this list next year.

No Iowa team presentation this year despite a pretty strong tournament by the Hawks.

3 of the 4 team trophy winners were not what most consider the typical standard bearers.

The change started with the rise of Penn State, but there is a definite eastward shift occurring.

Things area changing, and I am liking it.

 

[a_mshaffer]

Penn State first place 5th time last 6 years.
Okie State 2nd place but no team championship for 10 years.
Ohio State tied with Virginia Tech for third.

Previous 10 champs
Penn State 5
Iowa 3 but none in past 6 years.
Ohio State, last year
Minnesota but they will fall off this list next year.

No Iowa team presentation this year despite a pretty strong tournament by the Hawks.

3 of the 4 team trophy winners were not what most consider the typical standard bearers.

The change started with the rise of Penn State, but there is a definite eastward shift occurring.

Things area changing, and I am liking it.

I would have to say Iowa wrestled pretty tough in the beginning. They will still have 3 hammers within the first 4 weights next year
VaTech, should be expected to be around... great tourney
OK State - big improvements... get a few back to include Marstellar
Ohio St - who knows what to expect. Great tourney based on their season.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Penn State first place 5th time last 6 years.
Okie State 2nd place but no team championship for 10 years.
Ohio State tied with Virginia Tech for third.

Previous 10 champs
Penn State 5
Iowa 3 but none in past 6 years.
Ohio State, last year
Minnesota but they will fall off this list next year.

No Iowa team presentation this year despite a pretty strong tournament by the Hawks.

3 of the 4 team trophy winners were not what most consider the typical standard bearers.

The change started with the rise of Penn State, but there is a definite eastward shift occurring.

Things area changing, and I am liking it.

Also interesting along these lines, Pennsylvania with most AAs again - 12, followed by Ohio - 10. Believe these two States also had the most participants of the National Tourney's 330 wrestlers - believe the numbers were something like PA with 63 followed by Ohio high 20s or low 30s.

 

[SetonHallPirate]

Not that it's likely, or even that I'm predicting it, but four titles in the first five weights for Iowa is not out of the question next year. That said, it's a HIGHLY remote possibility (probably the equivalent of a full house in five-card draw).

 

[nitlion6]

Not that it's likely, or even that I'm predicting it, but four titles in the first five weights for Iowa is not out of the question next year. That said, it's a HIGHLY remote possibility (probably the equivalent of a full house in five-card draw).

Gilman and Clark are obvious, but the other 2 are and which weights?
141 both finalists return. Well I guess the Wyoming kid could use his RS.
149 looks to me like it belongs to Zain for 2 more years.
157 Do not know what IMAR is doing, but Nolf is back.

 

[wahlberg]

Nvm

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Not that it's likely, or even that I'm predicting it, but four titles in the first five weights for Iowa is not out of the question next year. That said, it's a HIGHLY remote possibility (probably the equivalent of a full house in five-card draw).

Cortez, Zain and Nolf will have something to say about that. Iowa will definitely be favored at 125. We'll see if Cortez is at 133 or 141.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Penn State first place 5th time last 6 years.
Okie State 2nd place but no team championship for 10 years.
Ohio State tied with Virginia Tech for third.

Previous 10 champs
Penn State 5
Iowa 3 but none in past 6 years.
Ohio State, last year
Minnesota but they will fall off this list next year.

No Iowa team presentation this year despite a pretty strong tournament by the Hawks.

3 of the 4 team trophy winners were not what most consider the typical standard bearers.

The change started with the rise of Penn State, but there is a definite eastward shift occurring.

Things area changing, and I am liking it.

No tie for 3rd tOSU finished ahead of VT after Snyders win

 

[SetonHallPirate]

The other two I was thinking are Kemerer and Sorensen. No, I'm not calling it likely. I'm definitely not predicting it. But I WOULD call it remotely possible.

More likely than not, though, one, two, or even all three of Cortez, Retherford, and Nolf (not to mention, just to name a non-PSU guy, another redshirt freshman, Jaydin Eirman at 133) will make that unlikely.

 

[mcruny42]

Iowa and Okie State will be right in the hunt next year. There has been a nice movement eastward with the likes of VaTech and NC ST, but those 2 midwestern programs aren't going anywhere. I'm also excited to see how ASUs young guys perform, although they are likely a couple years away from threatening from a team perspective

 

[dunkej01]

Your right things are changing. The biggest change is that the east coast is finally developing programs and our local boys can stay home. Rutgers, VaTech, NC State joining Cornell, O$U and PSU is huge for wrestling. This is what we have been referring to in these parts for some time as the "arms race".

The olympic movement along with the failed coup of the nat duals while very dark moments in the sport, have actually had in my opinion positive affects.

One of the quotes from the tournament that I loved the most was Caels talking about the loses of DT, nolf and nickal in the finals as freshman. Essentially pointing out that being 4xAA is important, but simply having those trophies on a shelf will not propel the sport forward. Whereas what DT has done and what Cael feels Nolf/Nickal can do as individuals to propel the sport forward is so much more rewarding.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Your right things are changing. The biggest change is that the east coast is finally developing programs and our local boys can stay home. Rutgers, VaTech, NC State joining Cornell, O$U and PSU is huge for wrestling. This is what we have been referring to in these parts for some time as the "arms race".

The olympic movement along with the failed coup of the nat duals while very dark moments in the sport, have actually had in my opinion positive affects.

One of the quotes from the tournament that I loved the most was Caels talking about the loses of DT, nolf and nickal in the finals as freshman. Essentially pointing out that being 4xAA is important, but simply having those trophies on a shelf will not propel the sport forward. Whereas what DT has done and what Cael feels Nolf/Nickal can do as individuals to propel the sport forward is so much more rewarding.

Yes, really liked what Cael had to say about Bo - had nothing negative to say or 2nd guess him in any way. I especially loved his comment - Nickal? What can you say about the way Nickal wrestles - show me show me anyone who wouldn't pay money to watch that kid wrestle? And then followed it with a comment about Freestyle - something to the effect that they have more of a freestyle mentality....extremely aggressive and always looking to score to control their own destiny.

I thought Kyle Snyder's post-match comments were telling - he literally almost apologized for having to pull an intentional "stall move" to win. Given that he just won the Championship, that is a rather odd thing to say as one of your first comments walking off the mat....someone who feels a little guilt, but I give him tremendous credit for his honesty there. Essentially he was admitting that he may well have lost if that was a Freestyle Match (e.g., International Competition such as the Olympics). Takes a "big man", especially a guy that just won a World Championship, that his opponent may well have gotten the better of the actual wrestling and that he won due to some vagaries of folkstyle.

 

[Pennstate1985]

The other two I was thinking are Kemerer and Sorensen. No, I'm not calling it likely. I'm definitely not predicting it. But I WOULD call it remotely possible.

More likely than not, though, one, two, or even all three of Cortez, Retherford, and Nolf (not to mention, just to name a non-PSU guy, another redshirt freshman, Jaydin Eirman at 133) will make that unlikely.

let's not forget Brock of OSU at 133 next year too. Clark is a great wrestler, but is offensively challenged in neutral, and as we've seen, that isn't good enough against the top 2 or 3 at 133.

 

[dunkej01]

let's not forget Brock of OSU at 133 next year too. Clark is a great wrestler, but is offensively challenged in neutral, and as we've seen, that isn't good enough against the top 2 or 3 at 133.

I think Clark and the majority of the hawks are not so much challenged in their technique, but challenged in their belief to let it fly and that its ok to fail provided that failing is part of the process. I think you heard that in Brands post tournament public comments about clark reverting to his mindset last year after losing in the finals and that brands needs to get him out of that. I think the hawks put too much pressure on themselves (the fans certainly do) and that the belief that failure is not an option is actually working against them currently.

If I was a reporter in the weeks ahead and had a chance to talk with Nico, I would ask him if he would trade being a 3x champ for the feeling he has now only being a 1x champ?

I know the easy answer is 3x champ, but Im not sure he would pick it. In his case I think he personafies a different way of thinking. A Cael way of thinking that is different in a team sport setting and especially in the blood and guts sport of wrestling. Nico and this teams mentality, is that defeats while debilitating make the winning that much more euphoric.

Takes a special person and special mindset to walk the lunatic fringe. But inside the LWC we have many of these types. this allows psu to score points, which scores match points, which allows team points to pile up and win championships.

Just my $0.02 the morning after celebrating a championship while enjoying my morning coffee and watching my kids throwing ball in the backyard. Life is so much bigger than the moment.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I think Clark and the majority of the hawks are not so much challenged in their technique, but challenged in their belief to let it fly and that its ok to fail provided that failing is part of the process.

For the most part I agree with you. Where we may differ slightly is that Iowa suffers from a lack of chain wrestling from neutral, and from top too. That is a technique issue AND belief issue.

 

[dunkej01]

More on this....Our fans take a lot of crap from HR fans that we were nowhere to be found last year when we werent winning. The internet takes that out of context because this is the wild west and group think generally rules the day regardless of the facts.

I dont think we went anywhere last year at all, we simply sat back realizing what we were coming off of and trusting in the plan that was layed out before us with this latest journey.

In Cael I trust!

 

[nitlion6]

The other two I was thinking are Kemerer and Sorensen. No, I'm not calling it likely. I'm definitely not predicting it. But I WOULD call it remotely possible.

More likely than not, though, one, two, or even all three of Cortez, Retherford, and Nolf (not to mention, just to name a non-PSU guy, another redshirt freshman, Jaydin Eirman at 133) will make that unlikely.

I forgot about Kemerer, and I will be anxious to see how he does. In all reality though he isn't getting through Nolf and/or Martinez.
Tomasello is back. Whether or not he is back @25 he is a huge obstacle at one of those first 2 weights.

This isn't the equivalent of a 5 card draw to a full house. Iowa winning 4 of the first 5 next season is the equivalent of a 5 card draw to a royal flush for the biggest pot of the evening then going home and checking the powerball numbers to find out your ticket is the single winner for a billion dollar jackpot.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

I think Clark and the majority of the hawks are not so much challenged in their technique, but challenged in their belief to let it fly and that its ok to fail provided that failing is part of the process. I think you heard that in Brands post tournament public comments about clark reverting to his mindset last year after losing in the finals and that brands needs to get him out of that. I think the hawks put too much pressure on themselves (the fans certainly do) and that the belief that failure is not an option is actually working against them currently.

If I was a reporter in the weeks ahead and had a chance to talk with Nico, I would ask him if he would trade being a 3x champ for the feeling he has now only being a 1x champ?

I know the easy answer is 3x champ, but Im not sure he would pick it. In his case I think he personafies a different way of thinking. A Cael way of thinking that is different in a team sport setting and especially in the blood and guts sport of wrestling. Nico and this teams mentality, is that defeats while debilitating make the winning that much more euphoric.

Takes a special person and special mindset to walk the lunatic fringe. But inside the LWC we have many of these types. this allows psu to score points, which scores match points, which allows team points to pile up and win championships.

Just my $0.02 the morning after celebrating a championship while enjoying my morning coffee and watching my kids throwing ball in the backyard. Life is so much bigger than the moment.

Yes, again Cael's comments about Bo and a "Freestyle mentality" are telling relative to what you are saying. IMHO, what Cael is really saying is that....yea, sure, winning is what it's all about and we all like, and want to win, but it's still important to win "the right way". "The right way" in Cael's mind is that his wrestler's LEAVE the program BETTER WRESTLERS than when they CAME to the program. Focusing on winning folkstyle championships as the "end and be-all" and "pinnacle" of their wrestling careers is short-sighted. They need to keep their eye on the real prize - Olympic and International medals. Cael would NEVER tell a wrestler to change their style in a way that would be long-term detrimental for their potential wrestling career just to win NCAA folkstyle matches and championships - that would be a very short-sighted thing to do. For these elite guys, their NCAA folkstyle is not the end of the road, it is the very beginning of the road and it is therefore more important that they focus on constant improvement and LEAVING PSU much better true "wrestlers" than when they arrived. Mega a good example, he may only have 1 NCAA Championship, but he is a lightyears better International Competitor than Gilman as yesterday's neutral performances clearly showed. IOW, Nico is a legit competitor at the "International Level" - Gilman (or Delgado before him), not so much.....

This is also what Cael is saying about Nickal and Nolf - keep focusing on your high-powered offense because it will be even better and more unstoppable next year (just like the Magic Man). Don't worry about the losses, the things they are doing will only take them so far and will only take them those places in folkstyle......if you keep making yourself a better "true wrestler", you will go by them so fast in the passing lane that they will not even realize it.

 

[El-Jefe]

The other two I was thinking are Kemerer and Sorensen. No, I'm not calling it likely. I'm definitely not predicting it. But I WOULD call it remotely possible.

More likely than not, though, one, two, or even all three of Cortez, Retherford, and Nolf (not to mention, just to name a non-PSU guy, another redshirt freshman, Jaydin Eirman at 133) will make that unlikely.

Kemerer lost 14-1 in his last match of the year to another shirting true freshman. I like him long-term but don't see him "remotely possible" as a national champ next year at 149 or 157 with Zain, Nolf, and (possibly still) Martinez. He could be genuinely elite at 157 with no shot at all -- think Caldwell stuck behind Taylor and Dake.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

I would have to say Iowa wrestled pretty tough in the beginning. They will still have 3 hammers within the first 4 weights next year
VaTech, should be expected to be around... great tourney
OK State - big improvements... get a few back to include Marstellar
Ohio St - who knows what to expect. Great tourney based on their season.

Not sure I'd say big improvements for OkSt. Lose Ringer, Marsden and Klimara (who didn't AA but isn't easily replaceable). Piccini could AA at 125 but it's also possible we see a JoJo take a RS year. Biggest threats lie in conference, yet again. OSU may be favorites. Nato will be back (though at what weight), they could have him at 125, Hayes at 141, Micah at 149, Jake Ryan at 157, no clue if White goes at 165 but I double it, but then BoJo, MyMar and Snyder. That's 4 title contenders (though idk if I buy in to MyMar). As for Iowa, Gilman, Clark, Sorenson, Kemerer, Marinelli, Meyer, Brook and Stoll give them a legitimate shot at 8 All-Americans

 

[Mpchillin]

No, kemerer's only losses were at midlands. That 14-1 score was actually the other way around against Glosser. Also, Megaludis is not light years ahead of Gilman in terms of international success.

 

[El-Jefe]

More on this....Our fans take a lot of crap from HR fans that we were nowhere to be found last year when we werent winning. The internet takes that out of context because this is the wild west and group think generally rules the day regardless of the facts.

I dont think we went anywhere last year at all, we simply sat back realizing what we were coming off of and trusting in the plan that was layed out before us with this latest journey.

In Cael I trust!

In other words, we were stalling.

 

[El-Jefe]

No, kemerer's only losses were at midlands. That 14-1 score was actually the other way around against Glosser. Also, Megaludis is not light years ahead of Gilman in terms of international success.

Then I stand corrected about Kemerer's last match, and that'll teach me to trust Track.

But I still don't see him approaching Zain, Nolf, or Martinez next year. I think he can make the podium and be a real handful for JoJo, maybe even finish 3rd, and that's a real good freshman year.

 

[Franklin_Restores_TheTradition]

Not sure I'd say big improvements for OkSt. Lose Ringer, Marsden and Klimara (who didn't AA but isn't easily replaceable). Piccini could AA at 125 but it's also possible we see a JoJo take a RS year. Biggest threats lie in conference, yet again. OSU may be favorites. Nato will be back (though at what weight), they could have him at 125, Hayes at 141, Micah at 149, Jake Ryan at 157, no clue if White goes at 165 but I double it, but then BoJo, MyMar and Snyder. That's 4 title contenders (though idk if I buy in to MyMar). As for Iowa, Gilman, Clark, Sorenson, Kemerer, Marinelli, Meyer, Brook and Stoll give them a legitimate shot at 8 All-Americans

Agree regarding MyMar - not really that concerned with Bo's ability to beat him, Bo clearly has the better offense and all of MyMar's scoring was exclusively off "countering" mistakes made by Bo in execution. The most concerning thing I saw with Bo yesterday is that he gassed such that he could not keep carrying his attacks late in the match - Bo was visibly having trouble with his tank in the last minute....if he did not have those tank issues, I think he wins - he just did not have enough tank to carry the aggression level, especially a throw like he tried at the very end that cost him because he couldn't finish (e.g., if he wasn't so exhausted, I think he finishes that throw - he did have Martin on his back momentarily at the edge, Bo just didn't have the energy left to keep Martin from rolling him on the finish.).

But who knows, maybe Bo wasn't feeling well - Bo also looked a little tired at the end of his Semi match and was kind of "hanging-on" for that win which is not like him. Or maybe it's something additional conditioning and training will easily fix, etc.... Again, I think Bo gassing late in both the Semi's and Finals is more concerning than the actual loss in the final because if Bo wrestles to his ability against Martin, he is clearly a far better "wrestler" than Martin imho -- not really even all that close as evidenced by the fact that not a single point scored by Martin was predicated upon his own offense and own "attacks".

 

[Needanap]

Kemerer lost 14-1 in his last match of the year to another shirting true freshman. I like him long-term but don't see him "remotely possible" as a national champ next year at 149 or 157 with Zain, Nolf, and (possibly still) Martinez. He could be genuinely elite at 157 with no shot at all -- think Caldwell stuck behind Taylor and Dake.

EJ -- who did Kemerer lose to 14 to 1. IIRC, Track wrestling had a score from an open tournament reversed for some time. It would be interesting to know what tournament as well.

 

[nitlion6]

Riding train home.
Not only have I seen numerous PSU people but it was cool seeing tons of folks with Rutgers apparel. VTech and Cornell were here in huge numbers.

Philly did a great job with large ticket numbers and nearly 20,000 for the finals last night.

 

[ggcpsu]

Agree regarding MyMar - not really that concerned with Bo's ability to beat him, Bo clearly has the better offense and all of MyMar's scoring was exclusively off "countering" mistakes made by Bo in execution. The most concerning thing I saw with Bo yesterday is that he gassed such that he could not keep carrying his attacks late in the match - Bo was visibly having trouble with his tank in the last minute....if he did not have those tank issues, I think he wins - he just did not have enough tank to carry the aggression level, especially a throw like he tried at the very end that cost him because he couldn't finish (e.g., if he wasn't so exhausted, I think he finishes that throw - he did have Martin on his back momentarily at the edge, Bo just didn't have the energy left to keep Martin from rolling him on the finish.).

But who knows, maybe Bo wasn't feeling well - Bo also looked a little tired at the end of his Semi match and was kind of "hanging-on" for that win which is not like him. Or maybe it's something additional conditioning and training will easily fix, etc.... Again, I think Bo gassing late in both the Semi's and Finals is more concerning than the actual loss in the final because if Bo wrestles to his ability against Martin, he is clearly a far better "wrestler" than Martin imho -- not really even all that close as evidenced by the fact that not a single point scored by Martin was predicated upon his own offense and own "attacks".

Guys weren't feeling well.

 

[El-Jefe]

More on this....Our fans take a lot of crap from HR fans that we were nowhere to be found last year when we werent winning. The internet takes that out of context because this is the wild west and group think generally rules the day regardless of the facts.

I dont think we went anywhere last year at all, we simply sat back realizing what we were coming off of and trusting in the plan that was layed out before us with this latest journey.

In Cael I trust!

Looking over there just now: every day and twice on Sunday I'll take our approach last year of enjoying the moment with optimism toward the future -- vs. the dumpster fire going on over there.

 

[dunkej01]

Looking over there just now: every day and twice on Sunday I'll take our approach last year of enjoying the moment with optimism toward the future -- vs. the dumpster fire going on over there.

I know they are high on renteria and mejia coming in after gillman and clark, but if they dont win next year combined with Lee in the PSU lineup the negative energy over there could cause an interweb black hole in 17-18

 

[Flying_Tiger]

Very impressed with Virginia Tech, both their wrestlers and their fans (right next to us in PSU section). 6 AAs without Dance or Zavitsky being one of them, yikes. They are going to be extremely good next year; very well could be a title contender.

Cornell had a big contingent and Rutgers had a lot of fans.

btw, Penn State fans were everywhere, lol. I think I saw more then in Philadelphia.