USA Wrestling's Statement on Social Justice

[dmm53]

It's good to see.

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestli.../01/USA-Wrestling-statement-on-social-justice

USA Wrestling statement on social justice

BY USA WRESTLING | JUNE 01, 2020, 4:04 P.M. (ET)

USA Wrestling statement on social justice

Social injustice is wrong and contrary to the inclusive nature of wrestling. USA Wrestling’s mission is to provide quality opportunities for its members to achieve their full athletic and human potential. Recent tragedies in our nation compel us to do more and do it better. We stand with our African American and black communities and all of the diverse people who are part of our sport. We will focus our actions on how we can drive change against unjust treatment, police brutality, and systematic racism that is plaguing our nation and world. We need to come together now and use our voice, platform, and actions to help create the kind of society that reflects our values. By its nature, wrestling can be the most inclusive sport on earth. Anyone can wrestle and everyone is welcome. When we hit the mat, we are all part of one wrestling family.

 

[dmm53]

Response to the tragic death of George Floyd
May 30, 2020
To the Penn State community,

The tragic circumstances surrounding the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, following other recent unspeakable tragedies, makes clear yet again that systemic discrimination and unjust racial disparities continue to plague our country. It is past time for change.

We cannot remain silent in the face of this heart-breaking reality. As an institution of higher education, we have an obligation to fight ignorance and intolerance, model inclusivity and embrace the power that diversity represents.

In the face of hatred and bias, we must speak out. We must not accept apathy, indifference or silence, otherwise we allow hatred, prejudice and intolerance to grow.

Our message today is, foremost, one of profound compassion for all who live in fear that the color of their skin, gender identity, ethnicity or religion makes them a target of hate. Our hearts ache as we can only imagine the trauma, pain and frustration that many are feeling at this time.

This message also reaffirms Penn State’s commitment to disrupting hate, bias and racism whenever and wherever we encounter it, and to creating the most inclusive and diverse community that we possibly can – one that is free of discrimination; one that embraces differences; and one that respects all individuals.

We support our community as you express your sadness and anger through peaceful protest, and we know it is even more challenging to support and lift each other up during this global pandemic, with the added difficulty of social distancing. However, please know that our entire University community grieves with you, supports you and joins with you as we strive for positive change.

Eric J. Barron

President, Penn State

 

[Conewago]

Where were these statements when out of control cops killed Sam and Vicki Weaver; the Branch Davidians; Duncan S. Lemp; or Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas?

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Well, a good OP is going to go in the shitter because of whataboutism.

 

[lookleft goright]

Those are a couple nice letters with some catchy phrases and feel good sentiments and virtue signaled promises, but what actions are going to be taken? That is the question. Fancy words and offering support do not solve the problem. They give people a soft fuzzy feeling that goes away after a while. We have a lot of people standing with other people, but no one is moving forward.

As a side note - racism may be one of the problems on display here, but you cannot legislate racism. The other blatantly obvious problem to me is an imbalance of power. That can be legislated. Any ideas or solutions. I have a few ideas, but I am wondering if anyone else has anything to offer. If not, I will keep mine to myself.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Those are a couple nice letters with some catchy phrases and feel good sentiments and virtue signaled promises, but what actions are going to be taken? That is the question. Fancy words and offering support do not solve the problem. They give people a soft fuzzy feeling that goes away after a while. We have a lot of people standing with other people, but no one is moving forward.

As a side note - racism may be one of the problems on display here, but you cannot legislate racism. The other blatantly obvious problem to me is an imbalance of power. That can be legislated. Any ideas or solutions. I have a few ideas, but I am wondering if anyone else has anything to offer. If not, I will keep mine to myself.

Term limits, striking down the precedent in Citizens United which greatly tilted the scales of political influence to corporations - even more than it had been tilted, demilitarizing our police forces

 

[Dogwelder]

... We have a lot of people standing with other people, but no one is moving forward.

... but you cannot legislate racism ...

Well, I guess you are using hyperbole.

But if you were not, we would say that some people are probably moving forward, and we would say that, probably, legislation has had some effect on racism.

Over-the-top absolutist hyperbole is probably not a helpful tone to take when people are already upset. That’s my opinion.

 

[lookleft goright]

Term limits, striking down the precedent in Citizens United which greatly tilted the scales of political influence to corporations - even more than it had been tilted, demilitarizing our police forces

Not sure what Citizens Unity is all about. Demilitarizing our police force seems like a good idea.

How about being able to sue or send to jail a cop or prosecutor who makes a mistake and sends the wrong guy to prison. How about, allowing people not involved in an arrest to step in and stop a policeman when he is being "unreasonable or using unreasonable force" without having to face the threat of being arrested.

How about not making everything a crime where a cop needs to be involved or having less preventive crimes Not wearing a seat belt. Underage drinking/DUIs. Speeding. Opening a salon when a virus is in the air. Then we have criminals who know (in certain cities) that they will not be arrested for theft of under a certain amount - say 500-1000 dollars depending on the city. Something is way out of balance.

How about giving people more freedom to protect their property and families. If a shop owner shoots a person who is looting, the shop owner goes to jail. How many times have we seen clips of someone saying. "go ahead and hit me! I will sue you for everything you have."? That should not even be an issue, but everyone is depending on the police to keep things peaceful and punish people. This makes us totally dependent on the police force to keep us safe. That gives them a lot of power. With a lot of power, comes an abuse of power.

I do not think I could do the job the police do. It is very tough and stressful at times. The city gov't tell them to go out and give speeding tickets and seat belt tickets and drinking tickets etc to raise money. I have to think they hate doing that. Then they are called into situations of anger and violence and danger and expected to perform flawlessly and calmly. It has to be tough.

However, if some of the responsibility for our safety is not on our shoulders, then the police have to carry the total load. If we begin to have responsibility for our own safety, maybe many people who have lost faith or respect for the police, will gain respect for the police.

 

[lookleft goright]

Well, I guess you are using hyperbole.

But if you were not, we would say that some people are probably moving forward, and we would say that, probably, legislation has had some effect on racism.

Over-the-top absolutist hyperbole is probably not a helpful tone to take when people are already upset. That’s my opinion.

So no suggestions from you, but rather you are going to criticize my choice of words?
I agree that I could have worded things differently, but rather was in hurry to find or hear solutions.

 

[David Keller]

Are we supporting Insurrection here? Organized looting? Just asking.

 

[ss7]

Are we supporting Insurrection here? Organized looting? Just asking.

Speaking only for myself, but I don't support the looting anymore than I suspect you support the extra-judicial murder of citizens by police.

I guess it's just a question of what we choose to focus on.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Not sure what Citizens Unity is all about. Demilitarizing our police force seems like a good idea.

How about being able to sue or send to jail a cop or prosecutor who makes a mistake and sends the wrong guy to prison. How about, allowing people not involved in an arrest to step in and stop a policeman when he is being "unreasonable or using unreasonable force" without having to face the threat of being arrested.

How about not making everything a crime where a cop needs to be involved or having less preventive crimes Not wearing a seat belt. Underage drinking/DUIs. Speeding. Opening a salon when a virus is in the air. Then we have criminals who know (in certain cities) that they will not be arrested for theft of under a certain amount - say 500-1000 dollars depending on the city. Something is way out of balance.

How about giving people more freedom to protect their property and families. If a shop owner shoots a person who is looting, the shop owner goes to jail. How many times have we seen clips of someone saying. "go ahead and hit me! I will sue you for everything you have."? That should not even be an issue, but everyone is depending on the police to keep things peaceful and punish people. This makes us totally dependent on the police force to keep us safe. That gives them a lot of power. With a lot of power, comes an abuse of power.

I do not think I could do the job the police do. It is very tough and stressful at times. The city gov't tell them to go out and give speeding tickets and seat belt tickets and drinking tickets etc to raise money. I have to think they hate doing that. Then they are called into situations of anger and violence and danger and expected to perform flawlessly and calmly. It has to be tough.

However, if some of the responsibility for our safety is not on our shoulders, then the police have to carry the total load. If we begin to have responsibility for our own safety, maybe many people who have lost faith or respect for the police, will gain respect for the police.

Here’s a wiki entry on the Citizens United case. Yeah, I know, Wikipedia, but it’s impossible to find a fairly neutral discussion of the case. Suffice it to say that this case opened all the floodgates for money to flow into our political system and further corrupt it. It is renowned for treating corporations, in the context of speech, as people even though these entities are treated as the artificial entities they are in other legal spheres. If a corporation wants to be treated as a person, well fine. Let’s do it across the board - say goodbye to limited liability Mr. CEO. I say this as a political moderate in many respects, but this ruling has been a disaster

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

 

[82bordeaux]

I had these conversations with three of my kids just last night. They were quoting statistics about what the most racist cities are. I explained that we all have racist thoughts...and I mean all of us. That includes all people of color/ethnicity/religion/etc... The question is do we take racist actions? That is the critical differentiation. Once we realize that we all have varying preconceived ideas about people based on how they look, speak, worship, etc...and focus on how we treat one another in spite of those preconceived ideas, we will begin to make gains. That is true from any side of this multifaceted issue.
The primary issue today is police brutality. A very small percentage of police are criminal in their actions. A too-large percentage of police maintain a code of silence about those actions. It takes leadership to correct those cultural deficiencies. And prosecutors do not treat criminal police force members the same way they treat ordinary citizens. If I committed those crimes against George Floyd, I would have been arrested within hours of the video surfacing. I would have been charged with first degree murder, as well as another 20 felonies that prosecutors tack onto primary charges for leverage. I wouldn't have been charged with only third degree murder. If my friends were standing around watching/helping, they would also be charged with murder. Police should be held to a higher standard, not a lower standard. They also should receive some benefit of the doubt in all of these cases due to the difficulty and dangerous nature of the job. But when the facts clearly present themselves, swift and decisive action must occur.
There were protesters in downtown Erie Saturday night. Vandals broke some windows and lit 2 buildings on fire. But there were protesters there that were peaceful. When this young woman was sitting in the street, she was maced and brutally kicked by a member of the Erie PD. The officer had 20 policemen at his side. She posed no threat. Yet, this was his initial action. The vandals and looters have been identified, arrested, and had their photos on the news. The identity of the Erie Policeman is still a mystery. Therein lies the problem.

 

[Dogwelder]

So no suggestions from you, but rather you are going to criticize my choice of words?
I agree that I could have worded things differently, but rather was in hurry to find or hear solutions.

No. No suggestions from me on this wrestling forum. You go ahead and be the guy to move forward, on a wrestling forum, when in all the rest of non-BWI America, “no one is moving forward.”

 

[AgSurfer]

Lots of different opinions on this issue. Keep in mind that at least one PSU wrestler found himself in the middle of a police encounter. The story I heard was that he was just trying to get into a bar that was closing to use the phone when some off-duty cop jumped him from behind to show everyone what a badass he was. He sure picked the wrong guy to try to prove his point!

 

[El-Jefe]

How about being able to sue or send to jail a cop or prosecutor who makes a mistake and sends the wrong guy to prison.

You're very close to one of the biggest issues: the legal fiction of "Qualified Immunity" that the Supreme Court invented in the 1970s and then updated in 1982 to make it virtually ironclad.

It was intended to protect law enforcement from liability when acting in good faith in unclear situations -- not abuse. (It should've been done legislatively, not judicially, but that's another matter.)

The 1982 update made the stringent so standard as to be almost impenetrable. Courts have upheld immunity for police thefts, police who shot unthreatening children and pets, police who have physically assaulted suspects who had already surrendered, etc., because comparable cases weren't similar enough. Unconstitutional police actions are also insufficient basis. The standard is insane.

Even before the George Floyd killing, SCOTUS was expected to review a collection of qualified immunity cases. Overturning 1982 if not the entire concept seems very possible. (Codifying via legislation would be better still.)

Reason Magazine has a number of good articles on the subject.
https://reason.com/tag/qualified-immunity/

 

[El-Jefe]

Another thing that needs to end or be severely curtailed is No Knock Raids.

Countless times the police raid the wrong house -- either put the wrong address on the warrant, or misread the address on the scene, or the suspect had fled days or weeks earlier.

Nighttime raids at the wrong house ... what could possibly go wrong? Innocent people have their houses and possessions destroyed. If they defend themselves, they get arrested or shot.

And then they can't sue thanks to Qualified Immunity.

 

[lookleft goright]

You're very close to one of the biggest issues: the legal fiction of "Qualified Immunity" that the Supreme Court invented in the 1970s and then updated in 1982 to make it virtually ironclad.

It was intended to protect law enforcement from liability when acting in good faith in unclear situations -- not abuse. (It should've been done legislatively, not judicially, but that's another matter.)

The 1982 update made the stringent so standard as to be almost impenetrable. Courts have upheld immunity for police thefts, police who shot unthreatening children and pets, police who have physically assaulted suspects who had already surrendered, etc., because comparable cases weren't similar enough. Unconstitutional police actions are also insufficient basis. The standard is insane.

Even before the George Floyd killing, SCOTUS was expected to review a collection of qualified immunity cases. Overturning 1982 if not the entire concept seems very possible. (Codifying via legislation would be better still.)

Reason Magazine has a number of good articles on the subject.
https://reason.com/tag/qualified-immunity/

Sounds like we have found something to change or at lest something to try to get our legislators to change.

 

[lookleft goright]

Here’s a wiki entry on the Citizens United case. Yeah, I know, Wikipedia, but it’s impossible to find a fairly neutral discussion of the case. Suffice it to say that this case opened all the floodgates for money to flow into our political system and further corrupt it. It is renowned for treating corporations, in the context of speech, as people even though these entities are treated as the artificial entities they are in other legal spheres. If a corporation wants to be treated as a person, well fine. Let’s do it across the board - say goodbye to limited liability Mr. CEO. I say this as a political moderate in many respects, but this ruling has been a disaster

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

I am still not sure how that relates to the current problem. In my opinion this is a case of police brutality and no legal recourse for the people to stop it in the future. How do corporations being treated as people in the context of speech contribute to the problems we are seeing the results of right now?

 

[lookleft goright]

Another thing that needs to end or be severely curtailed is No Knock Raids.

Countless times the police raid the wrong house -- either put the wrong address on the warrant, or misread the address on the scene, or the suspect had fled days or weeks earlier.

Nighttime raids at the wrong house ... what could possibly go wrong? Innocent people have their houses and possessions destroyed. If they defend themselves, they get arrested or shot.

And then they can't sue thanks to Qualified Immunity.

This is a good example of the problem here. If a policeman is going into a drug house or a gang house and they have to knock and be admitted, they will walk into a lot of gunfire and who knows what else. So how do we protect the police when they are doing their jobs legitimately and how do we protect the innocent when the police are not doing their job correctly?

 

[El-Jefe]

The toughest nut to crack will be accountability within individual police departments.

Last year Minneapolis police also murdered an unarmed Australian woman. The officer was convicted and sent to prison for 12 yrs. Good start, but it was not enough to weed out officers with lengthy complaint sheets (which would've included most of the officers on the scene at the Floyd killing).

Louisville just fired its police chief after a BBQ owner was fatally shot during curfew. Most likely he got canned because the officers had turned off their body cameras (in a city with another very recent police killing case). Again, good start, but it's only scapegoating if nothing changes below the chief.

 

[El-Jefe]

This is a good example of the problem here. If a policeman is going into a drug house or a gang house and they have to knock and be admitted, they will walk into a lot of gunfire and who knows what else. So how do we protect the police when they are doing their jobs legitimately and how do we protect the innocent when the police are not doing their job correctly?

There should be a rigorous debate over how much of that activity is truly necessary.

The way drug raids are conducted are also rife with bad incentives. When I lived in Brookhaven PA, the town newsletter bragged about new police vehicles purchased with participation fees collected for drug raids in other municipalities. Brookhaven had an incentive to farm out its police in non-emergencies to communities where they do not live.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

I am still not sure how that relates to the current problem. In my opinion this is a case of police brutality and no legal recourse for the people to stop it in the future. How do corporations being treated as people in the context of speech contribute to the problems we are seeing the results of right now?

I was responding to the “imbalance of power” issue more broadly - beyond the scope of police powers vs the citizenry. Probably out of scope for this debate, but contributing to the imbalance of power vis-à-vis the elites vs the people. The feeling of powerlessness of your ordinary citizen in the face of a government’s levers of power, and the “system” itself, will lead to this anger and unrest.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Lots of different opinions on this issue. Keep in mind that at least one PSU wrestler found himself in the middle of a police encounter. The story I heard was that he was just trying to get into a bar that was closing to use the phone when some off-duty cop jumped him from behind to show everyone what a badass he was. He sure picked the wrong guy to try to prove his point!

Elaborate without revealing identities?

 

[nittinsc]

This is a good example of the problem here. If a policeman is going into a drug house or a gang house and they have to knock and be admitted, they will walk into a lot of gunfire and who knows what else. So how do we protect the police when they are doing their jobs legitimately and how do we protect the innocent when the police are not doing their job correctly?

If I want to catch a rattlesnake, I think I should explore all other options before I reach in it's den.

 

[lookleft goright]

There should be a rigorous debate over how much of that activity is truly necessary.

The way drug raids are conducted are also rife with bad incentives. When I lived in Brookhaven PA, the town newsletter bragged about new police vehicles purchased with participation fees collected for drug raids in other municipalities. Brookhaven had an incentive to farm out its police in non-emergencies to communities where they do not live.

I agree totally here. Way too many things are considered criminal and result in jail time. One of the things Trump did correctly was to release a bunch of people who were convicted of nonviolent crimes. We have way too many people incarcerated in this country and way to many incentives to keep the jails full.
Another example of the people being helpless is the number of people who run over protester and are then arrested. What should a person do if their vehicle is surrounded by a mob? Get out and get mauled. If a person feels they are in danger they should be able to defend themselves. Whether the person endangering them is a protestor or a policeman. The trick is how do we enforce it and what the law should look like? No easy answers here.

 

[KOPStu]

Elaborate without revealing identities?

https://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_96af1cb1-983e-5a31-bb1e-f523b90501e8.html
It's not recent story. Fortunately, the situation got worked out appropriately.

 

[District four]

Those are a couple nice letters with some catchy phrases and feel good sentiments and virtue signaled promises, but what actions are going to be taken? That is the question. Fancy words and offering support do not solve the problem. They give people a soft fuzzy feeling that goes away after a while. We have a lot of people standing with other people, but no one is moving forward.

As a side note - racism may be one of the problems on display here, but you cannot legislate racism. The other blatantly obvious problem to me is an imbalance of power. That can be legislated. Any ideas or solutions. I have a few ideas, but I am wondering if anyone else has anything to offer. If not, I will keep mine to myself.

No we the people still have the power we just chose to give it up to a two political party system the power comes from putting us against each other and pointing the finger while trying to hold the moral high ground. We just need to take it back and vote in leaders who actually represent us not just a set of ideals. Just one man's opinion.

On a side note there has only been four social movements in our society since the conception of this country for a good reason. They are difficult and require the masses to move out of their comfort zone this requires a commitment and sacrifice few are willing to make most days. The saying actually goes divided we stand United we fall not the other way around.

 

[District four]

Not sure what Citizens Unity is all about. Demilitarizing our police force seems like a good idea.

How about being able to sue or send to jail a cop or prosecutor who makes a mistake and sends the wrong guy to prison. How about, allowing people not involved in an arrest to step in and stop a policeman when he is being "unreasonable or using unreasonable force" without having to face the threat of being arrested.

How about not making everything a crime where a cop needs to be involved or having less preventive crimes Not wearing a seat belt. Underage drinking/DUIs. Speeding. Opening a salon when a virus is in the air. Then we have criminals who know (in certain cities) that they will not be arrested for theft of under a certain amount - say 500-1000 dollars depending on the city. Something is way out of balance.

How about giving people more freedom to protect their property and families. If a shop owner shoots a person who is looting, the shop owner goes to jail. How many times have we seen clips of someone saying. "go ahead and hit me! I will sue you for everything you have."? That should not even be an issue, but everyone is depending on the police to keep things peaceful and punish people. This makes us totally dependent on the police force to keep us safe. That gives them a lot of power. With a lot of power, comes an abuse of power.

I do not think I could do the job the police do. It is very tough and stressful at times. The city gov't tell them to go out and give speeding tickets and seat belt tickets and drinking tickets etc to raise money. I have to think they hate doing that. Then they are called into situations of anger and violence and danger and expected to perform flawlessly and calmly. It has to be tough.

However, if some of the responsibility for our safety is not on our shoulders, then the police have to carry the total load. If we begin to have responsibility for our own safety, maybe many people who have lost faith or respect for the police, will gain respect for the police.

Or simple human dignity will do the trick

 

[Lyons212]

The toughest nut to crack will be accountability within individual police departments.

Last year Minneapolis police also murdered an unarmed Australian woman. The officer was convicted and sent to prison for 12 yrs. Good start, but it was not enough to weed out officers with lengthy complaint sheets (which would've included most of the officers on the scene at the Floyd killing).

Louisville just fired its police chief after a BBQ owner was fatally shot during curfew. Most likely he got canned because the officers had turned off their body cameras (in a city with another very recent police killing case). Again, good start, but it's only scapegoating if nothing changes below the chief.

The cop who shot the Australian woman (Justine Damon) also had lengthy complaints against him. Seems to be the case with these brutality cases, the cops are bad before the fatal incident occurs.

 

[nittinsc]

You're very close to one of the biggest issues: the legal fiction of "Qualified Immunity" that the Supreme Court invented in the 1970s and then updated in 1982 to make it virtually ironclad.

It was intended to protect law enforcement from liability when acting in good faith in unclear situations -- not abuse. (It should've been done legislatively, not judicially, but that's another matter.)

The 1982 update made the stringent so standard as to be almost impenetrable. Courts have upheld immunity for police thefts, police who shot unthreatening children and pets, police who have physically assaulted suspects who had already surrendered, etc., because comparable cases weren't similar enough. Unconstitutional police actions are also insufficient basis. The standard is insane.

Even before the George Floyd killing, SCOTUS was expected to review a collection of qualified immunity cases. Overturning 1982 if not the entire concept seems very possible. (Codifying via legislation would be better still.)

Reason Magazine has a number of good articles on the subject.
https://reason.com/tag/qualified-immunity/

Here's a recent Reuters article on qualified immunity

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-police-immunity-scotus/

 

[Thenightking]

I would rather stick a hot poker in my eye than go near this thread! But I must say i wish that PSU and USA wrestling could both put out a nice little note saying that they also stand behind all the innocent people who have had their businesses and lives destroyed by the people that riot and loot and destroy property.

 

[SRATH]

I had these conversations with three of my kids just last night. They were quoting statistics about what the most racist cities are. I explained that we all have racist thoughts...and I mean all of us. That includes all people of color/ethnicity/religion/etc... The question is do we take racist actions? That is the critical differentiation. Once we realize that we all have varying preconceived ideas about people based on how they look, speak, worship, etc...and focus on how we treat one another in spite of those preconceived ideas, we will begin to make gains. That is true from any side of this multifaceted issue.
The primary issue today is police brutality. A very small percentage of police are criminal in their actions. A too-large percentage of police maintain a code of silence about those actions. It takes leadership to correct those cultural deficiencies. And prosecutors do not treat criminal police force members the same way they treat ordinary citizens. If I committed those crimes against George Floyd, I would have been arrested within hours of the video surfacing. I would have been charged with first degree murder, as well as another 20 felonies that prosecutors tack onto primary charges for leverage. I wouldn't have been charged with only third degree murder. If my friends were standing around watching/helping, they would also be charged with murder. Police should be held to a higher standard, not a lower standard. They also should receive some benefit of the doubt in all of these cases due to the difficulty and dangerous nature of the job. But when the facts clearly present themselves, swift and decisive action must occur.
There were protesters in downtown Erie Saturday night. Vandals broke some windows and lit 2 buildings on fire. But there were protesters there that were peaceful. When this young woman was sitting in the street, she was maced and brutally kicked by a member of the Erie PD. The officer had 20 policemen at his side. She posed no threat. Yet, this was his initial action. The vandals and looters have been identified, arrested, and had their photos on the news. The identity of the Erie Policeman is still a mystery. Therein lies the problem.

View embedded media

You probably don’t have the whole story on the Erie lady. The PD was clearing the area due to looting, well after the protest.....approx 11:30 at night. She and others had to be maced. Rather than moving, she sat down. A well placed heel to the shoulder. Still under investigation. What should the police do? Windows smashed, 2 buildings on fire and someone had just been shot. Police were facing bricks, frozen water bottles, large fireworks and other objects. So what should the police do?

 

[uncle jim 62]

I would say contain her, ask questions then possibly arrest her. Mace and the Kick are just saying ( I'm a lot more bad ass than you) certainly didn't look needed!

 

[82bordeaux]

You probably don’t have the whole story on the Erie lady. The PD was clearing the area due to looting, well after the protest.....approx 11:30 at night. She and others had to be maced. Rather than moving, she sat down. A well placed heel to the shoulder. Still under investigation. What should the police do? Windows smashed, 2 buildings on fire and someone had just been shot. Police were facing bricks, frozen water bottles, large fireworks and other objects. So what should the police do?

You know what I would do with no one around but armed fellow police officers covering me? I'd approach the girl and ask her how she wanted it to go down, with mace and handcuffs, or if she would clear the area. And if she insists on being arrested, please present your wrists for the arrest. The cops were in no danger from her. That officer did not need to begin with a well placed heel to the shoulder. Instead he could have used a much more powerful weapon. It's called humanity.

 

[AgSurfer]

https://www.collegian.psu.edu/archives/article_96af1cb1-983e-5a31-bb1e-f523b90501e8.html
It's not recent story. Fortunately, the situation got worked out appropriately.

Based on what I heard, that article is a bit misleading. It was late at night and Ed had lost his cell phone. He needed to call someone to get a ride so he went to a bar that was just closing and asked if he could use the phone to call for a ride. The guy at the door said no, they were closed. I don't know all the details about what happened next, but it sounded to me like Ed just verbally persisted for a while because he was pretty desperate to get a ride. I don't know if the doorman pushed Ed and he pushed back or if it was just a verbal exchange. But something prompted an off duty cop to grab Ed from behind. Big mistake, you can guess how that turned out. (Keep in mind that the cop did not identify himself or show any ID). Of course after he was humiliated, the cop then flashed his ID and proceeded to put Ed under arrest. I'm guessing that he got some assistance from the guys at the door because I doubt he could have stopped Ed by himself. Ed was charged with assaulting a police officer and some other BS, but I heard that most of the charges were quietly dismissed. Hmmmm, I wonder why. If anyone knows more about this incident or has a different version, please chime in.

BTW, there was a very similar situation in San Diego a few years ago where an off duty cop shot Steve Foley who was a linebacker for the Chargers. The guy ended Foley's pro football career. Foley sued the cop and the city and was awarded several million dollars for his financial loss and personal injury. You can read the details about that incident on the Internet.

 

[Psalm 1 guy]

I will give some of my thoughts with the realization that a message board is very limiting in trying to present a cogent position. I could talk on these topics for hours and have done so in the past with various people. My background is that I retired a year ago as a patrol sergeant with the San Diego Police Department where I worked for 32 years. My number one priority for my officers and myself, not including officer safety, was that I expected my officers to treat everyone they encountered with dignity and respect. It was not always easy to do when some individuals would treat you with utter disdain and resistance/attack (being spit on, physically assaulted, vilely cussed out, threatening harm to me and my family, throwing down the race card at the drop of a hat, etc.) but as an officer it is your professional responsibility to not abuse your authority no matter what the provocation may be.

On the topic of race, I have spent numerous hours talking with my black friends and colleagues about race issues and racism, especially as it relates to police work. It has always been my belief that racism and discrimination are grave individual sins, but even more so when exhibited by officers. With all of that said, San Diego has historically had better race relations than most large cities, and SDPD is generally viewed as professional and fair in their policing.

The last week has been very difficult for me personally. As I have watched on TV the rampant violence, looting and overall lawlessness I find myself very angry and shaken. I find it appalling the amount of people and "leaders" condoning or excusing the behavior of many of these "protestors". Watching the rioters burn the Minneapolis police precinct after the police abandoned it was particularly infuriating and sad. I am concerned for the future of our country if we continue down some of the paths we have taken as a nation. Some bullet points with my opinions/experiences:

- Officer Chauvin's actions were outrageous and criminal, and I condemn them
- The overall lack of trust in police by many, whether minority or not, is a huge hurdle to overcome
- The racial divide in our country is not getting better anytime soon, especially since the issue of race has been hijacked by those in politics to gain political capital
- Too many police officers treat people (whether minority or not) poorly/unlawfully
- The overwhelming majority of officers act professionally and appropriately most of the time
- Police officers are not monolithic; some are good, some are bad, some are professional, some are unprofessional, some are empathetic and kind, some are badge heavy, some inspire confidence in the profession and some give the profession an extremely bad name
- Police departments need to better monitor and discipline/potentially fire corrupt/abusive officers
- At all levels of society disrespectful behavior/words toward others seems to be increasing
- In the last 10-15 years of my career I noticed an increase in overtly disrespectful behavior toward officers, especially by young people
- Confrontational behavior toward officers seems to be increasing and with it a much higher likelihood of a physical confrontation/use-of-force by the officer (whether justified or not)
- The near immediate 24/7 national news availability that often highlights police use-of-force incidents, especially involving black Americans, skews the belief that the issue is rampant and growing. The race of the suspect and officer seem to be mentioned only when it fits the police racial abuse narrative
- There are millions of interactions each year between police and individuals, and an extremely small percentage of those interactions result in the unlawful injury or death to the individual (any unlawful injury or death is obviously too many)
- I have personally witnessed dozens if not hundreds of instances where officers would have been legally and ethically justified in using force/escalating a situation, but through patience and empathy, defused a potentially volatile/deadly situation. These instances never make the news obviously
- I believe being a police officer is a noble profession and when done well with respect and compassion has the ability to change lives and communities for the better
- As a Christian it is my responsibility to love my neighbor as myself and to try to find common ground with those who view the world differently than I do. I realize that differences of opinion on sensitive and incendiary topics are no excuse to treat anyone poorly

Sorry for the length of this post.

 

[AgSurfer]

I will give some of my thoughts with the realization that a message board is very limiting in trying to present a cogent position. I could talk on these topics for hours and have done so in the past with various people. My background is that I retired a year ago as a patrol sergeant with the San Diego Police Department where I worked for 32 years. My number one priority for my officers and myself, not including officer safety, was that I expected my officers to treat everyone they encountered with dignity and respect. It was not always easy to do when some individuals would treat you with utter disdain and resistance/attack (being spit on, physically assaulted, vilely cussed out, threatening harm to me and my family, throwing down the race card at the drop of a hat, etc.) but as an officer it is your professional responsibility to not abuse your authority no matter what the provocation may be.

On the topic of race, I have spent numerous hours talking with my black friends and colleagues about race issues and racism, especially as it relates to police work. It has always been my belief that racism and discrimination are grave individual sins, but even more so when exhibited by officers. With all of that said, San Diego has historically had better race relations than most large cities, and SDPD is generally viewed as professional and fair in their policing.

The last week has been very difficult for me personally. As I have watched on TV the rampant violence, looting and overall lawlessness I find myself very angry and shaken. I find it appalling the amount of people and "leaders" condoning or excusing the behavior of many of these "protestors". Watching the rioters burn the Minneapolis police precinct after the police abandoned it was particularly infuriating and sad. I am concerned for the future of our country if we continue down some of the paths we have taken as a nation. Some bullet points with my opinions/experiences:

- Officer Chauvin's actions were outrageous and criminal, and I condemn them
- The overall lack of trust in police by many, whether minority or not, is a huge hurdle to overcome
- The racial divide in our country is not getting better anytime soon, especially since the issue of race has been hijacked by those in politics to gain political capital
- Too many police officers treat people (whether minority or not) poorly/unlawfully
- The overwhelming majority of officers act professionally and appropriately most of the time
- Police officers are not monolithic; some are good, some are bad, some are professional, some are unprofessional, some are empathetic and kind, some are badge heavy, some inspire confidence in the profession and some give the profession an extremely bad name
- Police departments need to better monitor and discipline/potentially fire corrupt/abusive officers
- At all levels of society disrespectful behavior/words toward others seems to be increasing
- In the last 10-15 years of my career I noticed an increase in overtly disrespectful behavior toward officers, especially by young people
- Confrontational behavior toward officers seems to be increasing and with it a much higher likelihood of a physical confrontation/use-of-force by the officer (whether justified or not)
- The near immediate 24/7 national news availability that often highlights police use-of-force incidents, especially involving black Americans, skews the belief that the issue is rampant and growing. The race of the suspect and officer seem to be mentioned only when it fits the police racial abuse narrative
- There are millions of interactions each year between police and individuals, and an extremely small percentage of those interactions result in the unlawful injury or death to the individual (any unlawful injury or death is obviously too many)
- I have personally witnessed dozens if not hundreds of instances where officers would have been legally and ethically justified in using force/escalating a situation, but through patience and empathy, defused a potentially volatile/deadly situation. These instances never make the news obviously
- I believe being a police officer is a noble profession and when done well with respect and compassion has the ability to change lives and communities for the better
- As a Christian it is my responsibility to love my neighbor as myself and to try to find common ground with those who view the world differently than I do. I realize that differences of opinion on sensitive and incendiary topics are no excuse to treat anyone poorly

Sorry for the length of this post.

No need to apologize for anything. Your input is very much appreciated.

 

[AgSurfer]

P.S. All the older people posting here will remember the 60's song "Something In The Air" by Thunderclap Newman. Here are the lyrics - and this was written 50 years ago!

Call out the instigators
Because there's something in the air
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right

And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now

Lock up the streets and houses
Because there's something in the air
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right

And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now

Hand out the arms and ammo
We're going to blast our way through here
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right

And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now

 

[82bordeaux]

I will give some of my thoughts with the realization that a message board is very limiting in trying to present a cogent position. I could talk on these topics for hours and have done so in the past with various people. My background is that I retired a year ago as a patrol sergeant with the San Diego Police Department where I worked for 32 years. My number one priority for my officers and myself, not including officer safety, was that I expected my officers to treat everyone they encountered with dignity and respect. It was not always easy to do when some individuals would treat you with utter disdain and resistance/attack (being spit on, physically assaulted, vilely cussed out, threatening harm to me and my family, throwing down the race card at the drop of a hat, etc.) but as an officer it is your professional responsibility to not abuse your authority no matter what the provocation may be.

On the topic of race, I have spent numerous hours talking with my black friends and colleagues about race issues and racism, especially as it relates to police work. It has always been my belief that racism and discrimination are grave individual sins, but even more so when exhibited by officers. With all of that said, San Diego has historically had better race relations than most large cities, and SDPD is generally viewed as professional and fair in their policing.

The last week has been very difficult for me personally. As I have watched on TV the rampant violence, looting and overall lawlessness I find myself very angry and shaken. I find it appalling the amount of people and "leaders" condoning or excusing the behavior of many of these "protestors". Watching the rioters burn the Minneapolis police precinct after the police abandoned it was particularly infuriating and sad. I am concerned for the future of our country if we continue down some of the paths we have taken as a nation. Some bullet points with my opinions/experiences:

- Officer Chauvin's actions were outrageous and criminal, and I condemn them
- The overall lack of trust in police by many, whether minority or not, is a huge hurdle to overcome
- The racial divide in our country is not getting better anytime soon, especially since the issue of race has been hijacked by those in politics to gain political capital
- Too many police officers treat people (whether minority or not) poorly/unlawfully
- The overwhelming majority of officers act professionally and appropriately most of the time
- Police officers are not monolithic; some are good, some are bad, some are professional, some are unprofessional, some are empathetic and kind, some are badge heavy, some inspire confidence in the profession and some give the profession an extremely bad name
- Police departments need to better monitor and discipline/potentially fire corrupt/abusive officers
- At all levels of society disrespectful behavior/words toward others seems to be increasing
- In the last 10-15 years of my career I noticed an increase in overtly disrespectful behavior toward officers, especially by young people
- Confrontational behavior toward officers seems to be increasing and with it a much higher likelihood of a physical confrontation/use-of-force by the officer (whether justified or not)
- The near immediate 24/7 national news availability that often highlights police use-of-force incidents, especially involving black Americans, skews the belief that the issue is rampant and growing. The race of the suspect and officer seem to be mentioned only when it fits the police racial abuse narrative
- There are millions of interactions each year between police and individuals, and an extremely small percentage of those interactions result in the unlawful injury or death to the individual (any unlawful injury or death is obviously too many)
- I have personally witnessed dozens if not hundreds of instances where officers would have been legally and ethically justified in using force/escalating a situation, but through patience and empathy, defused a potentially volatile/deadly situation. These instances never make the news obviously
- I believe being a police officer is a noble profession and when done well with respect and compassion has the ability to change lives and communities for the better
- As a Christian it is my responsibility to love my neighbor as myself and to try to find common ground with those who view the world differently than I do. I realize that differences of opinion on sensitive and incendiary topics are no excuse to treat anyone poorly

Sorry for the length of this post.

For a lengthy post, there is not a single point you make that I could disagree with. Well stated.