What's With the Confederate flag being displayed at the tailgate today?
- Thread starter Alphalion75
- Start date
Thank you for linking those pesky source documents
They effectively hoist southern revisionism on its own petard.
Those who desperately try to argue the "states rights" position know, in their heart of hearts, that they have to take that tack because otherwise they're left with the simple fact that the society and culture they hold dear was undergirded by a system of human bondage. Pretty pathetic foundation for a society.
They effectively hoist southern revisionism on its own petard.
Those who desperately try to argue the "states rights" position know, in their heart of hearts, that they have to take that tack because otherwise they're left with the simple fact that the society and culture they hold dear was undergirded by a system of human bondage. Pretty pathetic foundation for a society.
I'm a conservative and I think it's redneck, ignorant racism
guess it's easier not to think about anything critically if you just blame it on politics.
The flag represents racism and the fight to keep slaves. That's not a 'heritage' you should be claiming to proudly represent any more than someone flying swastikas at a tailgate in Germany.
guess it's easier not to think about anything critically if you just blame it on politics.
The flag represents racism and the fight to keep slaves. That's not a 'heritage' you should be claiming to proudly represent any more than someone flying swastikas at a tailgate in Germany.
got a chuckle out of MBE's comment ...
"Unbelievable that that flag and the Nazi flag are tolerated in this country"
Actually - the fact that these despicable icons are "tolerated" in this country is what makes this country so great...
"Unbelievable that that flag and the Nazi flag are tolerated in this country"
Actually - the fact that these despicable icons are "tolerated" in this country is what makes this country so great...
I agree... But let's be fair
I have met at least twenty or thirty conservatives who were not racists
I have met at least twenty or thirty conservatives who were not racists
Re: I'm a conservative and I think it's redneck, ignorant racism
Wbcincy...what's your take on p90x3? Thinking about getting it for a relative and know you have experience with it
Wbcincy...what's your take on p90x3? Thinking about getting it for a relative and know you have experience with it
Re: I'm a conservative and I think it's redneck, ignorant racism
If you're familiar with p90x and p90x2, it's very similar, but more condensed workouts. It's a lot easier for someone who doesn't want to have to commit to an hour every day (though I'd recommend doing warmup before the 30 min vids in p90x3). I've been a pretty big fan of the series since the start, and with having a lot more responsibilities today than I did with the previous iterations, I certainly appreciate that the vids are that much shorter. I'd recommend it just as much as I would've p90x and p90x2.
The problem is, many do equate it with racism.
Whether the intent is that, or not, is almost irrelevant. The gut reaction is that it is a racist expression.
If it is not meant as that, but it is understood that some will reflexly view it as that. then the utilitarian response might be just to not display it. Just because.
Whether the intent is that, or not, is almost irrelevant. The gut reaction is that it is a racist expression.
If it is not meant as that, but it is understood that some will reflexly view it as that. then the utilitarian response might be just to not display it. Just because.
I'm assuming they didn't look like Ken Frazier?...
...as to the flag - it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. When we start thought patrolling, we've jumped the shark.
This post was edited on 4/19 12:31 AM by MtNittany
...as to the flag - it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. When we start thought patrolling, we've jumped the shark.
This post was edited on 4/19 12:31 AM by MtNittany
they equate it that way because it is
The fight that flag represents was to retain slavery, simple as that. You fly the swastika, you support anti-semitism not nationalism, you fly the stars and bars, you hate blacks not love the 10th amendment.
The fight that flag represents was to retain slavery, simple as that. You fly the swastika, you support anti-semitism not nationalism, you fly the stars and bars, you hate blacks not love the 10th amendment.
Here are some good articles on the war between the states and it's
causes as well as the American tradition of secession.
http://www.ditext.com/livingston/tradition.html
http://www.scv.org/pdf/Livingston.pdf
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/secession_state_liberty.pdf
Did you know?
"From the very first, secession was conceived as the last check an American state had to an abuse of those enumerated powers that had been delegated out of its sovereignty to the central government. From its beginning until 1865, secession was invoked by every section of the Union. And the section that first and most often raised the threat of secession was not the South but New England. Secession was threatened over the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, the embargo of 1807-09, the War of 1812, and the Mexican War. New Englanders refused to send troops in the second war with England, and seriously considered forming a New England Confederacy at the Hartford Convention in 1815.14 From the 1830s until 1861, New England abolitionists argued strongly for secession of the northern states from the Union. The following resolutions were passed by the American Anti-Slavery Society: "Resolved, that secession from the United States Government is the duty of every Abolitionist. . . ." And Resolved, "That the Abolitionists of this country should make it one of the primary objects of this agitation to dissolve the American Union."15
One of the early studies of the Constitution was A View of the Constitution, published in 1825 by William Rawle, a Federalist who was a leader of the Pennsylvania bar and had twice been offered the position of district attorney by George Washington, but had refused for personal reasons. Rawle raised the issue of whether a state could form a hereditary monarchy. He answered that since the people of a state are sovereign, they could, but the state would have to secede from the Union, since the Constitution guarantees to each state a republican form of government. He then laid out the formal conditions under which a state could unilaterally and legally secede from the Union.16 Rawle's work on the Constitution was widely respected, and was used as a textbook at West Point from 1825-1840."
"Foreign writers who had studied the Constitution concluded that a state could secede from the compact. Tocqueville wrote:
Lord Brougham, in his magisterial, multi-volume study of constitutions published in 1849, considered the Constitution as a compact from which a state could secede:
He accordingly refers to the Union as the "Great League." And Dr. Mackay, another English scholar of the Constitution, writing in the mid-nineteenth century, observed that
During the 1850s, this Great League was coming apart, and a movement arose among prominent national and state leaders in the mid-Atlantic states to form what was called a "Central Confederacy." This new Union would be composed of such states as Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas. This section constituted the conservative core of the Union, it was argued, and had interests different from the radicals of New England and the Gulf states. The formation of a Central Confederacy could prevent war and could serve as a rallying point around which the disaffected states of the deep South could one day return should they secede.20 It is interesting that the proponents of the new Union showed little interest in including the New England states. Perhaps part of the reason was disgust over the long hibstory of secession movements that had arisen in that region.
The mayor of New York, Fernando Wood, and others argued that if New York state seceded, the city should secede from the state and declare itself a free city. The mayor declared,
Right up to the firing on Fort Sumter, many abolitionists in the North, having long argued for northern secession, were prepared to allow the South peacefully to secede. This was the position in New York of the Douglass Monthly,22 printed by Frederick Douglass, and of Horace Greeley, editor of the Republican New York Tribune, who declared 23 February 1861, after the Confederacy was formed,
And John Quincy Adams, though a staunch unionist, declared in 1839, in a speech celebrating the Jubilee of the Constitution,
causes as well as the American tradition of secession.
http://www.ditext.com/livingston/tradition.html
http://www.scv.org/pdf/Livingston.pdf
https://mises.org/sites/default/files/secession_state_liberty.pdf
Did you know?
"From the very first, secession was conceived as the last check an American state had to an abuse of those enumerated powers that had been delegated out of its sovereignty to the central government. From its beginning until 1865, secession was invoked by every section of the Union. And the section that first and most often raised the threat of secession was not the South but New England. Secession was threatened over the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, the embargo of 1807-09, the War of 1812, and the Mexican War. New Englanders refused to send troops in the second war with England, and seriously considered forming a New England Confederacy at the Hartford Convention in 1815.14 From the 1830s until 1861, New England abolitionists argued strongly for secession of the northern states from the Union. The following resolutions were passed by the American Anti-Slavery Society: "Resolved, that secession from the United States Government is the duty of every Abolitionist. . . ." And Resolved, "That the Abolitionists of this country should make it one of the primary objects of this agitation to dissolve the American Union."15
One of the early studies of the Constitution was A View of the Constitution, published in 1825 by William Rawle, a Federalist who was a leader of the Pennsylvania bar and had twice been offered the position of district attorney by George Washington, but had refused for personal reasons. Rawle raised the issue of whether a state could form a hereditary monarchy. He answered that since the people of a state are sovereign, they could, but the state would have to secede from the Union, since the Constitution guarantees to each state a republican form of government. He then laid out the formal conditions under which a state could unilaterally and legally secede from the Union.16 Rawle's work on the Constitution was widely respected, and was used as a textbook at West Point from 1825-1840."
"Foreign writers who had studied the Constitution concluded that a state could secede from the compact. Tocqueville wrote:
Lord Brougham, in his magisterial, multi-volume study of constitutions published in 1849, considered the Constitution as a compact from which a state could secede:
He accordingly refers to the Union as the "Great League." And Dr. Mackay, another English scholar of the Constitution, writing in the mid-nineteenth century, observed that
During the 1850s, this Great League was coming apart, and a movement arose among prominent national and state leaders in the mid-Atlantic states to form what was called a "Central Confederacy." This new Union would be composed of such states as Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas. This section constituted the conservative core of the Union, it was argued, and had interests different from the radicals of New England and the Gulf states. The formation of a Central Confederacy could prevent war and could serve as a rallying point around which the disaffected states of the deep South could one day return should they secede.20 It is interesting that the proponents of the new Union showed little interest in including the New England states. Perhaps part of the reason was disgust over the long hibstory of secession movements that had arisen in that region.
The mayor of New York, Fernando Wood, and others argued that if New York state seceded, the city should secede from the state and declare itself a free city. The mayor declared,
Right up to the firing on Fort Sumter, many abolitionists in the North, having long argued for northern secession, were prepared to allow the South peacefully to secede. This was the position in New York of the Douglass Monthly,22 printed by Frederick Douglass, and of Horace Greeley, editor of the Republican New York Tribune, who declared 23 February 1861, after the Confederacy was formed,
And John Quincy Adams, though a staunch unionist, declared in 1839, in a speech celebrating the Jubilee of the Constitution,
Should the guy be waiving a confederate flag at a public venue in today's day-n-age, probably not! With that being said, it really irks me when Americans in today's day-n-age. Feels the need to tell fellow Americans how they Must, live their live's. As-well-as, feeling the desire to tell other Americans what they can & can't do with in with their own live's. As long as they're not physically harming others, of-course! To me, those individuals that feel the need to do that. Clearly, aren't proud Americans. And they clearly, don't respect the sacrifices our service men & women make, every single day. In-order for all of us Americans, to have the ability to live, Freely! Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, if you're not proud to be an American. Then, I'm absolutely certain, there's numerous other countries out there that would Love, to have u! Countries that are as far apart from here-in-America, as u can get!
I won't tell you how to live your whole life, but typing and english
and spelling and grammar and punctuation ought to be focus areas going forward. All that said, when a racist fool shows his ass and I say nothing, that makes me complicit.
It is in the best tradition of patriotism to speak up against injustice and to condemn this hate filled bullshit. So get over it.
and spelling and grammar and punctuation ought to be focus areas going forward. All that said, when a racist fool shows his ass and I say nothing, that makes me complicit.
It is in the best tradition of patriotism to speak up against injustice and to condemn this hate filled bullshit. So get over it.
I certainly understand the pride he has in his heritage and the fact he had relatives who fought in the Civil War. I wonder what he would think if someone parked beside his tailgate and hoisted a Nazi swasika flag? I'm sure he'd tell his new neighbor to take down that symbol of hatred and mass murder. But how would he respond if his new neighbor explained that his grandfather was a highly decorated member of the Wehrmacht during WWII? After the war his grandfather moved to the United States to start a new life and escape the devastation of Germany. Furthermore, his grandfather became a proud U.S. citizen but also took pride in his German heritage. This same pride was then passed down to the guy at the tailgate who wanted to honor his heritage by flying the flag under which his grandfather fought.
Nowadays people go overboard in comparing anything to Nazism and most of those comparisons are ludicrous. While slavery isn't Nazism, both saw certain people as subhuman and had no problem treating them as such. Descendants who support or honor the memory of either need to realize their ancestors weren't perfect. I realize most people who fought in the Civil War didn't own slaves just as many German soldiers in WWII didn't murder innocent Jews, gypsies or other "non-Aryans" but that doesn't excuse their descendants for being oblivious to the ideals their flags represent.
Let me start by saying I hate the confederate flag. With that said, I graduated from a school (VMI) that actively fought in the civil war...the actual only college to ever fight in a war as a college. If you are interested, there is a new movie called "Field of Lost Shoes" about the battle of new market. As you can imagine, I had many brother rats at VMI who were African American. We were all proud of our school and our history and that does not make any of us racists. I am not here to get into the debates of the causes of the civil war but I can promise you that many people from the south who fought in the war did not do it over slavery. They did it to protect their homes and their state that they loved.
The point I wanted to make is this....BE CAREFUL EQUATING THE NORTH WITH THIS TOKEN OF ANTI-RACISM. Our country should be ashamed at how long it has taken us to give African Americans equal rights. It was not that long ago that they had to drink out of separate water fountains.Racism still existed all over our country...so don't just sit at your computer and act like only southerners were racists. That is blatantly false.
I met just as many dumb redneck racists while living above the mason dixon line. It exists everywhere.
With all that said, I do hate the confederate flag and would never fly it myself...but we do live in American folks. Freedom!!!
The point I wanted to make is this....BE CAREFUL EQUATING THE NORTH WITH THIS TOKEN OF ANTI-RACISM. Our country should be ashamed at how long it has taken us to give African Americans equal rights. It was not that long ago that they had to drink out of separate water fountains.Racism still existed all over our country...so don't just sit at your computer and act like only southerners were racists. That is blatantly false.
I met just as many dumb redneck racists while living above the mason dixon line. It exists everywhere.
With all that said, I do hate the confederate flag and would never fly it myself...but we do live in American folks. Freedom!!!
I always laugh at the 'state's rights' argument. The primary state right the Confederacy wanted to protect was their right to own slaves. Their entire economy was held up on the backs of slaves, so of course they would fight to protect it. Let's not act like this was started by governmental overreach into their healthcare system, or a disagreement on federal tax policy.
And NittPicker hit the nail on the head with that last post. Well done. People make a lot of ridiculous comparisons to Nazi Germany, but yours is a very legitimate one.
People who fly the rebel flag are racist, grossly ignorant, or some combination of the two.
And NittPicker hit the nail on the head with that last post. Well done. People make a lot of ridiculous comparisons to Nazi Germany, but yours is a very legitimate one.
People who fly the rebel flag are racist, grossly ignorant, or some combination of the two.
Instead of pointing the finger at the dude flying the flag
How about the manufacturer and the store that makes/sells them?
How about the manufacturer and the store that makes/sells them?
If we're talking about primary source documents rebuking the revisionist notion that the Civil War was fought and the south seceded for any reason other than slavery, Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' "Cornerstone Speech" should be mentioned: http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1861stephens.asp. Particularly, this passage:
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."[/I]
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."[/I]
Re: Instead of pointing the finger at the dude flying the flag
They wouldn't make them if people didn't buy them.
Good post as well. I didn't post this because people could say, "That was just his opinion," but when whole secession conventions put it in their documents it becomes hard to refute. But, as the VP of the Confederacy, his words did carry much weight (he was also a key player in the drafting and passing of the Georgia document I posted).
Re: they equate it that way because it is
Actually the flag fadded away somewhat until the 50s or so when the civil rights battles were flaring up.
Actually the flag fadded away somewhat until the 50s or so when the civil rights battles were flaring up.
Lincoln speech Charleston Ill. 1852. "I will say that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters, or jurors of Negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry white people. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior And I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race". So much for the "Great Emancipator"
The flag should not be allowed to be displayed on University property.
I dislike the flag and what it represents, particularly when it is being flown by northerners. We pretty much know from where they're coming. However, can't agree with the above. Just as much as I agree with the right to burn a flag, I think the rights to fly a flag should be protected no matter. Basic rights.
I dislike the flag and what it represents, particularly when it is being flown by northerners. We pretty much know from where they're coming. However, can't agree with the above. Just as much as I agree with the right to burn a flag, I think the rights to fly a flag should be protected no matter. Basic rights.
