Which State is Toughest to Win a State Title In?
- Thread starter NittanyLion84
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Indiana always gets overlooked in this conversation. Consistently produces national level wrestlers and is single class.
One example that comes to mind is former NLWC member and 4x DIII champ, Riley Lefever never won a state title. Lost to Bobby Steveson his senior year.
The qualifying process is also insanely high risk with no full wrestlebacks. For example, an undefeated freshman Brayton Lee was headlocked and pinned in the quarters at semi-state and eliminated. That was his only career loss. (fun fact: that kid was a true giant killer; upset Joe Lee the next year too)
One example that comes to mind is former NLWC member and 4x DIII champ, Riley Lefever never won a state title. Lost to Bobby Steveson his senior year.
The qualifying process is also insanely high risk with no full wrestlebacks. For example, an undefeated freshman Brayton Lee was headlocked and pinned in the quarters at semi-state and eliminated. That was his only career loss. (fun fact: that kid was a true giant killer; upset Joe Lee the next year too)
California due to sheer numbers and single class too.
Keep coming up with answers. We all know the real answer is Pennsylvania. Always has been, probably always will be. For about 20 years I tracked total # of AA's and # of NC qualifiers. Pennsylvania was first every year but one, when they were 2nd to NJ. sometime in the 90's. Usually PA has more AA's than the next 4 or 5 states combined.
We cant even agree on if its State or StateS, and you expect a consensus on THIS??
Its PA by the way, next question.
Its PA by the way, next question.
California most definitely. High level of talent and only 1 class. PA has more high end talent but fewer schools and multiple classes. NJ, Ohio, Indiana/Illinois round out my top 5
And the question is toughest state to win a state title, not the best wrestling state. PA is the best wrestling state but I definitely don’t think it’s the most difficult to win a title
And the question is toughest state to win a state title, not the best wrestling state. PA is the best wrestling state but I definitely don’t think it’s the most difficult to win a title
To do this empiricaly, you’d probably have to weight number of eventual AAs per state tournament participant. Given the single class, I’d suspect New Jersey would take that measure over PA. We still have the fattest stack, and that is great.
Give us the math. I don't know the numbers.
Total # of all Americans produced by a state ÷ total number of high school state brackets per year.
A smaller state that produces more all Americans can be tougher than a big state. A state with multiple classes can still be tougher if they produce more than twice as many all americans.
Anyone know how many all americans come out of Pa, NJ, Ohio, California, ect?
Total # of all Americans produced by a state ÷ total number of high school state brackets per year.
A smaller state that produces more all Americans can be tougher than a big state. A state with multiple classes can still be tougher if they produce more than twice as many all americans.
Anyone know how many all americans come out of Pa, NJ, Ohio, California, ect?
More high end talent is more important than total size. A bracket can have one extra match and double the number of wrestlers. Who is the one match against?
If the NCAA basketball tournament expanded to 128 teams and each team added one game vs 65-128 ranked teams, I'm not sure that makes the tournament much tougher.
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Sure but the difference in high end talent isn’t huge. CA is one of the most talent rich states in the country. Then they have like 800+ high schools and only 1 class. PA has twice as many state champions every year. How many 4 timers has PA had? I think CA has had 4. Not the end all stat but it’s 1 that shows it’s tougher to do in CA than PA
We agree it is StateS. Anybody who disagrees is just ignorant. It is our job to educate them.
How many high school kids wrestle in California vs pa? How many ncaa all Americans has California produced vs pa?
Maybe pa had more 4 timers because they had better wrestlers.
I remember a time when one of CA's 4 timers wrestled two PA state champs in the same year. He was clobbered twice by the older Ciasulli (Easton) at Reno and Baglio(RedLand) at Dapper Dan.
Doesn't say much for CA 4 timers.
The internet was burning up with insults between CA and PA people leading up to the first bout. Kinda quiet afterwards, total silence after Baglio decked their star.
Completely agree. Just because there are more wrestlers doesn't make it more difficult for the cream of the crop. It might make it more difficult for the good wrestler hoping to place. A better way to judge the quality of a state tournament is to look back in time and see what that graduating class did at NCAAs.
That is the point of the math formula.
Take the total number of AAs from a state and divide it by the number of (weight classes multiplied x number of classes) = AAs per weight class. It will give us a rough gauge on the talent level per state.
Cali state champs would be hard pressed to make finals of PA States.
In 2016, CA had roughly 24,000 wrestlers, whereas PA had roughly 10,000. By far, CA has the most wrestlers by 2x over Illinois, and PA comes in 6th.
As far as NCAA champs and AAs from state origin, PA comes in 1st and CA comes in 5th in both categories. The years don't line up perfectly but the results are likely the same or close to it.
PA is 2.4x smaller in number of wrestlers than CA but slightly more than 2x more champs and AAs at Nationals than CA. By that math, PA is much more difficult. 5x more difficult, and YES, math was required for this post lol. I understand that having two groups (AAA and AA) separates the quality into two groups, but even so, PA states are still 2.5 times harder than CA by class if you divide by 2.
The math supports voltz99.
If that doesn't prove the point, I need only look at the last 15 years of Cael at PSU and what he has done in the sport. The ranking of a recruiting class was loosely based on quantity in the past. It is now based on quality. The same applies to this question, and probably why Cael came here in the first place.
www.flowrestling.org
As far as NCAA champs and AAs from state origin, PA comes in 1st and CA comes in 5th in both categories. The years don't line up perfectly but the results are likely the same or close to it.
PA is 2.4x smaller in number of wrestlers than CA but slightly more than 2x more champs and AAs at Nationals than CA. By that math, PA is much more difficult. 5x more difficult, and YES, math was required for this post lol. I understand that having two groups (AAA and AA) separates the quality into two groups, but even so, PA states are still 2.5 times harder than CA by class if you divide by 2.
The math supports voltz99.
If that doesn't prove the point, I need only look at the last 15 years of Cael at PSU and what he has done in the sport. The ranking of a recruiting class was loosely based on quantity in the past. It is now based on quality. The same applies to this question, and probably why Cael came here in the first place.
You Do The Math: High School Participation Numbers - FloWrestling
High school wrestling participation numbers are up across the country, but not every state is seeing increases. We take a look at which states are adding wrestlers and which ones are seeing declines in participation numbers.
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A few years ago New Jersey had a lot of top talent. In 2019, 4 Jersey kids won Nationals. Ashnaut, Lewis, Suriano and Ceassar.
Add into only one weight class the New Jersey State title is pretty tough to win. Phillipsburg has been a really good program for many years but they don't have many State champs. Maybe a few showed up in Pennsylvania School singlets😉
Add into only one weight class the New Jersey State title is pretty tough to win. Phillipsburg has been a really good program for many years but they don't have many State champs. Maybe a few showed up in Pennsylvania School singlets😉
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I’m agreeing that PA is the overall better wrestling state. Both states have high end talent with PA having more per capita. But the question is which state is tougher to win a state title in and I still stick with CA. If the talent disparity was say PA to Texas I would agree but overall it’s fairly close but there are 13 state champions a year in CA compared to 26 in PA plus the overall level of competition at AA is not that great. Some absolute high end hammers but not at every weight and the depth isnt even close to comparable to CA. I know most of you ride or die with PA wrestling but thinking it’s harder to win a AA PA state title than it is to win a CA title I just don’t agree with
Also, CA’s 4 timers actually haven’t done well at the next level at all. Their 3 timers have had much better success. The PA 4 timers are a mixed bag. Some all timers like Kolat and others like Thomas Haines
Also, CA’s 4 timers actually haven’t done well at the next level at all. Their 3 timers have had much better success. The PA 4 timers are a mixed bag. Some all timers like Kolat and others like Thomas Haines
But that’s saying that AA and AAA are the same quality and they are not. AA has some great kids but not at every weight and the depth isn’t there at all. AAA might be the toughest place to win a state title but AA sure isn’t and since half of your state champions come from there it seems like it’s easier than the extremely deep and talent rich CA and NJIn 2016, CA had roughly 24,000 wrestlers, whereas PA had roughly 10,000. By far, CA has the most wrestlers by 2x over Illinois, and PA comes in 6th.
As far as NCAA champs and AAs from state origin, PA comes in 1st and CA comes in 5th in both categories. The years don't line up perfectly but the results are likely the same or close to it.
PA is 2.4x smaller in number of wrestlers than CA but slightly more than 2x more champs and AAs at Nationals than CA. By that math, PA is much more difficult. 5x more difficult, and YES, math was required for this post lol. I understand that having two groups (AAA and AA) separates the quality into two groups, but even so, PA states are still 2.5 times harder than CA by class if you divide by 2.
The math supports voltz99.
If that doesn't prove the point, I need only look at the last 15 years of Cael at PSU and what he has done in the sport. The ranking of a recruiting class was loosely based on quantity in the past. It is now based on quality. The same applies to this question, and probably why Cael came here in the first place.
You Do The Math: High School Participation Numbers - FloWrestling
High school wrestling participation numbers are up across the country, but not every state is seeing increases. We take a look at which states are adding wrestlers and which ones are seeing declines in participation numbers.
Was at that Dapper Dan. In the next match, Walsh from Oley Valley pinned a kid from Washington with over 200 wins (memory may be faulty on the record).
In the 1980’s Altoona wrestling would travel to D.C. to wrestle against Bullis, Georgetown Prep and one other school that escapes me. We stayed with families from Bullis. Almost every year there was 3-4 National Prep School champs among these teams. Every year those same champs lost to a mediocre wrestler from Altoona. Most of us got 3 easy wins that padded our record. I can only vouch for 1987-1990. Yet it was a great experience and hopefully they’re still doing it. Life in DC was much different than life in Altoona and I could quickly cross it off my list of future residences.
NJ?? Ashnault someone mentioned...
How did he do against OW Zain at DD?
You'll NEVER convince me that it isnt hardest in PA.
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I am not saying that AAA and AA are equal, and I get what you are saying. That said, AAA is certainly stronger than CA and AA is likely on par if not slightly better than CA. Just my pennies.
Jim Martin wrestled a 4X Colorado state champ at Dapper Dan, it was a bath of blood in Martin's favor.
It would be cool to have a CA state champs vs PA AA state champs dual.
I say PA AA wins.
Is the question, "what state is the most difficult to win a high school championship" or "what state is the most difficult to win a high school championship for a future NCAA all american"?
Due to the largest pool of wrestlers and being single class, the odds of winning a championship in Cali are considerbly worse than any other state.
Of course, PA's high school wrestling is better per capita than CA but that's not the question.
That would be fun. PA’s best kid (Jax)is actually from NC though and their 2nd best kid (Bassett) lost this past summer to both Isiah and Elijah Cortez, brothers who are ranked #1 in CA at 126 and 132. I also think CA has the best kid between the 2 states in Cody Merrill. It’s close between him and Jax but Jax has taken a loss this year. Merrill is a beast. He teched Mirasola at Fargo this year. I wish the top states would have a dual tournament though. Would be incredible
That's simply not true. You are focusing on the sheer numbers when in reality the cream always rises to the top no matter the numbers. As Voltz99 said, adding more guys to the bracket simply adds cannon fodder for the best of the best. It doesn't change the outcome for those guys. If you have more of the best (like in PA), then numbers matter less. For a marginal guy struggling to make the podium, you are correct, but that isn't the question here.
Example: The NCAA decides tomorrow to make 174 a 64 man bracket. Does Carter's odds of winning his 4th diminish in any real way? NO. Would the guy seeded 8th have a harder time making the podium. Probably but not by much. It's just more fluff in the mix but doesn't have a major part in the outcome. Do upsets happen? Of course. Is it a normal thing? Not at all.
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Some of the PIAA brackets you can find look like they could be half an NCAA bracket.
The puppy bowl is tougher to win than the Super Bowl. There’s like 10 puppies competing. Only 2 teams are in the Super Bowl.
There is a reason that the Dapper Dan has taken place for years, which is the best Seniors in PA vs. the best Seniors combined from the other 49 states. The fact that PA has won some and been competitive says it all. They also completely dominate almost every year in NCAA qualifiers and All-Americans.
So, when we hear that Iowa high School wrestling is not as good as PA they cannot use the population as a reference point.In 2016, CA had roughly 24,000 wrestlers, whereas PA had roughly 10,000. By far, CA has the most wrestlers by 2x over Illinois, and PA comes in 6th.
As far as NCAA champs and AAs from state origin, PA comes in 1st and CA comes in 5th in both categories. The years don't line up perfectly but the results are likely the same or close to it.
PA is 2.4x smaller in number of wrestlers than CA but slightly more than 2x more champs and AAs at Nationals than CA. By that math, PA is much more difficult. 5x more difficult, and YES, math was required for this post lol. I understand that having two groups (AAA and AA) separates the quality into two groups, but even so, PA states are still 2.5 times harder than CA by class if you divide by 2.
The math supports voltz99.
If that doesn't prove the point, I need only look at the last 15 years of Cael at PSU and what he has done in the sport. The ranking of a recruiting class was loosely based on quantity in the past. It is now based on quality. The same applies to this question, and probably why Cael came here in the first place.
You Do The Math: High School Participation Numbers - FloWrestling
High school wrestling participation numbers are up across the country, but not every state is seeing increases. We take a look at which states are adding wrestlers and which ones are seeing declines in participation numbers.
2012 106 AAA
1st Ethan Lizak - 2nd NCAA
2nd Michael Kemerer - 2nd NCAA
4th Scott Parker - NCAA AA
7th Vincenzo Joseph - 2x 1st NCAA
2012 106 AA
1st Darian Cruz - 1st NCAA
Just another weight class in PA
Such as Morgan McIntosh, Isaiah Martinez, Aaron Nagao, any of the Nevills brothers, Nahshon Garrett, ... ?
Please.
And that's assuming you meant AAA. AA is nowhere near AAA.
