FB Recruiting 2025 four-star RB Tiqwai Hayes commits to Penn State!
- Thread starter sunshinedynomite
- Start date
You asked about early enrollment as if it was difficult and rare. Several people pointed out that it quite easy and quite common. So you responded with three quick snarky comments. 🤷🏻♀️
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It should not be common. It is suspicious when it is "quite easy" for them to get in yet graduation rates are DOWN.
An early entry will basically get 5 years of education by the end of their jr year.
Graduation rates are completely disconnected from early enrollment. Zero. Nadda. Zippo,
Your treading water and going under.
Your treading water and going under.
It’s actually the complete opposite.
Student-athletes graduate at record highs - NCAA.org
Division I student-athletes are graduating at record rates, according to the latest Graduation Success Rate data announced Wednesday. The overall single-cohort rate
www.ncaa.org
Why should it not be common? In most states the only class that you need as a senior in high school to graduate is English. Some states will also require a fourth credit of math but if you are even a reasonably intelligent student, you take algebra one in eighth grade, which counts towards your high school graduation. Having kids graduate a semester early is a good thing for everyone in my opinion. It actually saves taxpayers money because of less resources needed in the school systems.
I teach high school in PA. Our particular school still requires 4 years each of The Core 4: English, Math, Social Studies and Science. While this traditionally has been a point of pride- I'm pretty sure it will be changing.
The combo of poor Covid performance has lead to scrambling to get kids to graduate on time. While any Administrator would NEVER support "lower standards" - they all will also not fall on their sword.
The big Buzz at the high school level is Dual Enrollment. This makes a lot of sense- but is also a little "Wild West" like. Kids collecting random "credits"from community colleges and PSAC/ smaller private schools isn't a bad thing, however those credits also may not be recognized by more competitive institutions.
I agree that it will provide relief to local tax bases and expedite the overall process of schooling. But I'm not sure on how much this really "helps" provide a quality education. Is an English Prof at your local Community College that much better than a 30 year teacher of British Lit?
Collectively my son earned 35 AP "credits" on our high school campus. All 4/5s on tests. Not one credit counted at his college. My daughter had 12, of which one class was accepted by her university.
Conversely, if my son had not taken those classes and performed as he did- he wouldn't have been accepted. That was the standard. EVERYONE in his freshman college class had those and they could probably replicate the accepted group 5 times over and not lower that bar.
What does all of this mean? It is becoming much easier to get through high school. Early or dual enrollment is now "A Thing." Last year I had a Senior not step foot on campus for a single class- ALL OF HER courses were either in person or online with our local community college. She is bright and an engaging student, but she was not an AP level pupil, nor even Honors in most classes. However almost all of her credits were accepted by the large Western state university that she is attending- saving her a semester- or in her case allowing for a dual major.
I'd assume that Dl level athletes are being counseled to maximize their options- so many should be eligible to marticulate earlier- even if they are of only general academic standing. If they are not- that is probably a big red flag.
It's the way the tide is turning....
Thanks for the update on my alma mater high school. I assume the kids still are eligible for athletics?
In NC, some school districts have similar arrangements with local Community Colleges. In some districts, those going to Community College are not eligible for athletics at the high school.
Wrt graduation rates: Back in the 90s the graduation rate in this country was about 75%. In other words 1 in 4 American children didn't graduate high school. Now they report graduation rates close to 90%. That's a big improvement but my concern is that we've simply lowered the bar instead of improving academic performance. I keep reading articles that show high percentages of high school graduates can't read or do math at 8th grade levels. That's horrible but politicians and unions (IMO) seem more concerned about an artificially improved metric than actual performance.
Wrt AP courses: My kids both had enough college AP credits that they might have been able to graduate in 3 years. Unfortunately they used them to make their 4 year program a bit easier. I can't complain though because both of them graduated with honors and went on to nice careers.
Wrt the requirement for 4 years of English: I've always been critical of this. By 12th grade students should be able to read and analyze what they've read. My recollection of 12th grade English was about things like reading the classics. I have nothing against that but other things seem more important IMO. Kids should know how to do things like budget, save, reconcile a checkbook, and fill out a 1040 form, manage debt, and buy insurance. Those are life skills that every student should learn and I think that's more important than British Literature. JMO.
We have a close friend whose son went to Challenger Academy in Hickory, NC- which is a public magnet school located on the campus of their regional community college. Everything was supposedly dual enrollment.
The young man is brilliant- literally doing rocket and space science Ph D work on a full ride at UT Austin right now. But his college application process wasn't as easy as one would think.
He got rejected by all Ivys/MIT. Waitlisted at UNC Chapel Hill- where both of his sisters went after attending two different local public high schools in the same city ( they moved once after the elder graduated and when #2 was starting).
Hos best "brand" option was Boston College with maybe 9 credits and no scholarship/financial aid. This young man attended Stanford Computer Camps for fun since Elementary school...
So he ended up at NC State- albeit very begrudgingly. BUT- as a Frshman he was really a Junior. That got him fast tracked into all of the Astro Physics stuff he was in to. Tgen he got to do some notable research with a Senior Prof- which gave him the resume to attract attention from places like Colorado School of Mines on the niche end, and many major research institutions. He ended up at UT where he doesn't pay a dime....so it all worked out....but not without a lot of angst in between.
FWIW he did play hoops on his high school team- which was sort of Revenge of the Nerds like. No "real" basketball players on the roster.
If you are a bright kid there are many ways to achieve your goals. In my mind the issue is placing the wagon in front of the horse. So many of these families are getting starry eyed about "college credits" as if their child is "gifted" (another major pet peeve- aren't we ALL gifted in some way?)
We are at the start if a massive shift in Education. Small expensive private colleges are dying. Community colleges and PSU branch campuses are looking for relevance and PSACs are merging.
Just signs of the times- add in AI and Distance Learning and the whole model is justifiably shifting. However not all of it is good in my view. These Community Colleges have profit motives like any other business. Parents must be really on top of what is right for their child.
I’m all for that child not needing to go to high school as a senior if that’s what they choose. I think the AP stuff is a huge scam, and I taught AP calculus and statistics for 20 years. You said your own child didn’t get credit and they got four and fives on all the tests, but if they had done the dual enrollment and got credit, many more schools would’ve had to give them that credit. As expensive as college is, if that’s the best way to save money these days then I’m going to push as many kids towards it if they want to go to college.
Most of the school systems here in Maryland require four English credits, and then three each for the other core classes. Some of the best students come to high school with at least four credits earned in middle school. They can get two math credits from algebra one and geometry plus many start their foreign language components there so we’ve got a lot of kids who have everything except their fourth English credit by the time their junior year is over.
Biggest 12th grade English assignment is their College Essay. Our teachers are both 25+ year vets and both did a great job helping my kids get to the meat of their ideas.
Can't disagree re the rest. Times are a Changin'
At all of the public universities he would've gotten all credits. Places like USC were half. The school he went to was (unfortunately) 0.
Agree with AP scam...I sort of see this movement as the non College Board equivalent. But as I know from your other posts over the years- what is best for the kid is the way to go.
I'd sort of compare this phase to these direct to consumer drug ads- you see Ozembic and think it is right for you- instead of trusting your doctor.
Budgets are stretched and will only be moreso. I'm close to my retirement window but could maybe go 10 more years. I expect things to look very, very different at that time.
What's a PSAC?
I'm surprised to hear about the enrollment decline at PSU branch campuses. I was a big fan for multiple reasons. Easier to get admitted, a more gradual transition to independence, ability to participate in athletic programs, and $30k savings on room and board by commuting for 2 years rather than living on campus. Then you go to State College for your final 2 years. I guess the same could be said for community colleges. Is it just the lower birth rates? Is online learning hurting attendance?
Several reasons. One is Pa’s aging population. Fewer kids graduating. Plus kids look at more distant universities to attend instead of staying in state.
Community colleges have exploded in the the last twenty years. Far more people attending. Also online learning had to have some impact.
I am sure there are more. And it all adds up. Predicting s lot of ‘consolidation’ in the next 10-15 years.
If I was in charge.... Schools with low proficiency in reading and math would eliminate or reduce extracurricular activities and keep school open until 4:00pm. The time would be used to observe and help kids with their homework. It's obvious that many aren't doing it at home.
PSAC is the athletic conference for all of the state schools like Millersville, Shippensburg etc. I think Cal PA, Edinboro and Clarion or some combination combined a couple years ago.
Home is the issue, 90% of the time so I'd agree. But how are you going to staff this and pay for it?
With all of the phone issues in schools today, I think taking phones away from the students should be priority one but unfortunately parents wont let that happen even though its best for their kid.
As long as they remain students of the HS they can play sports. Most just choose to graduate with their class and don't leave early.
It would be paid for in part by eliminating extracurricular activities. I don't think kids who can't read or do math at an 8th grade level should be playing varsity sports.
I was unaware of this. I looked up tuition at Millersville and Shippensburg and found that they're half what they are at PSU. WTF! What am I missing?
Sounds great. The parents would freak out.
Here's something to consider. I could go on for days but this should give you an idea of what's going on.
My daughter will be starting year 3 of teaching a 3rd grade class in PA so she currently has 2 years of experience. She typically has about 21 students per class. Her 1st year out of college her class had IQ's ranging from 62 to 151. Yes, 62 to 151. She had 5 total above 130 and 6 total below 83. By October she had 5 math groups that were all being taught at different levels because there was no way that one lesson would work for this class. The smart ones were crazy bored and the less intelligent ones were lost.
BTW, the one with a 62 and the one with a 151 didn't have IEP's. Third grade and no IEP for a child with a 62 who couldn't read anything and couldn't add 1 +1. Literally couldn't add 1 + 1, and no IEP for a kid that was brilliant.
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The bar has been lowered. Significantly. Classes my high honors daughters took in high school had curriculum I had in 5th grade (Catholic School).
Was out for the afternoon and much was already addressed by others. I think our Commonwealth is just saturated with options- both public and private.
I believe that Bloomsburg, Mansfield and Lock Haven consolidated Administration functions and that some professors are doing M/W/F on one campus and Tu/Th on another to save on salary. The Human Resource redundancy is killing these less expensive schools.
I think it was Hillary Clinton who wanted free community college for everyone. That concept has its' merits from an equality perspective, but in a way also speaks to the perceived value of the educational product. Free doesn't always align with Quality.
Western states have been more advanced in terms of this model. In reality, the Pitt and PSU branch campuses acted as University aligned community colleges- granting the automatic transfer option to the Mother Ship as the carrot. I attended a branch campus for 2 years and found it beneficial. Smaller classes, more attention. PSU credits.
A close friend is now working at PSU Brandywine. That campus offers some 4 year degrees, has built dorms that supposedly could be sold out 3 times over, and on the surface appears healthy compared to most.
However, the whole PSU Branch system is under duress and apparently facing serious $ pressures. A positive in my mind that she relayed is that Brandywine's enrollment has been bolstered by first generation college kids.
In our region there are many migrant labor families. Their kids are taking the next step- and choosing the PSU brand. This provides affordability and culturally many of these families are very uncomfortable sending 18 year olds- especially their daughters- away to school. Two years commuting saves $ and allows them to grow more mature and gain parent's blessing.
The Community College option would be cheaper, and I know that PSU has entered into a relationship to allow Community College credits to transfer to PSU Branch Campuses that offer 4 year degrees (Brandywine, Behrend, Altoona, Berks amongst likely others). So we are sort of all swimming in the same pool- but my take is that PSU will accept CC credits at our less in demand campuses. That sort of outlines what PSU thinks about our relative "value" vs other 2 year options. Are they right? I'm not so sure.
Our high school is aligned with a vo tech on a Community College campus which markets their Pre-Nursing as Dual Enrollment. 16 "college credits." Except West Chester University does not recognize those- and makes kids re-take the courses if they are lucky enough to get in. Years ago I had a girl get rejected and I called the Dean of the Nursing school to understand why. I taught her daughters and made it clear that I was not questioning her decision- just trying to learn the mechanics and maybe try and help the unaccepted student feel better. What I learned was that at the time they admitted 60 pupils. #60 had a 4.0 gpa. So even a PSAC Nursing school doesn't necessarily accept what are positioned as "college credits." That is where the misunderstandings will arise which may lead to dissatisfaction.
It sort of feels like when my daughter was asked to join a travel softball team and the leaders positioned it as "an investment that will be paid off with a college softball scholarship due to Title lX." Of the girls on our team a few played in college, but only 1 got significant money, and that came as Financial Aid from Swarthmore-who doesn't offer athletic scholarships- as her parents weren't rich. She is crazy smart, but also could pitch a softball. That combo #1 helped her get admitted and #2 paid out to the tune of about $100,000+. All the other girls essentially had their parents pay a premium for smaller colleges so they could continue their careers.
I personally feel that just as some kids can go to college earlier, others should have the right to end their formal secondary education earlier too. The "old school" model is being turned totally upside down. Some of our neediest high school pupils, who don't want to be at school, and create distractions and monopolize time and attention should have the,option to leave and give it a shot in the "real world." Education Stealers....
A few years ago we had kids taking Chinese and Russian language courses online via The University of Oklahoma of all places. They sat in carrels in a small classroom where an aide monitored their behaviors while some online prof in Norman did the lecturing. That experiment was not continued- but is simply mind blowing. In theory you could have a room like that where 20 different languages from German, to Mandarin to Gaelic and Italian could be going on at the same time....all without a Certified Teacher.
Online education is improving and will change everything- but still has a long way to go. More recently I had a student initially accept a spot at University Park, but then switch to PSU World Campus so that he could join his Missionary Parents on an assignment in Central America for 2 years. How cool is that?
But a real eye opener is a current senior who hopes to be a pilot. He is a Top 5% level Honors/AP kid. Prom King, Gifted Musician, and Eagle Scout. I've helped him research the Academies, flight schools like Emry Riddle, strong state schools with highly ranked Aviation majors like U of Akron and U of North Dakota. But in the end he may just go directly to an airline training program and skip the 4 year degree altogether. United is running a school out near Phoenix and others are following. There is a big pilot and air traffic controller gap approaching, and the companies are making their own educational institutions. Amazing.
So what is this ramble all about? My guess is that we are in the dying era of the brick and mortar phase of higher education. Many smaller colleges will die, like Cabrini, while others will,merge to survive. Think when Barnes and Noble put up big stores with coffee bars everywhere in the 90s- only to see the market shift to online buying and now even lending. Some of those stores still exist- but their profits are probably significantly less than what they thought when they put up the buildings.
Education can be customized 1 million different ways. At what point do kids really know what they want? When do things like trade schools, apprentice programs, and even military training start to happen inside of "middle/high schools?"
The answer to that lies in what one thinks "Education" is meant to accomplish. I love being a part of this paradigm shift, although I know that when I retire, it is likely that I won't be replaced....at least not,by a human being!
It's kind of like I tell the parents of my students whenever they say "when I was in school...." It ISN'T the same and is growing further and further away from our collective experiences. We've just gotta go with the flow- and there will be mistakes made along the way.
Pushing "college" into high school is well underway...so yeah- our Class of 2025 football players should all enroll in January! ; )
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Penn State has always accepted credits from Community Colleges as well as most other accredited schools. In addition, there is not difference for transferring credit for any campus. Today it's very easy to do with the attached "Transfer Credit Tool". See Link. There are two boxes at the top: "Seach by Institution" and "Search by Penn State Course".
EDIT: I forgot to mention, if you find a class in the Transfer Credit Tool it will transfer and you don't need any additional approval. Just take the class and pay the $25 fee.
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@87 Penn St8 , it's good to see people like you are still involved in Education.
I have a student/baseball/football player who thought about the same thing with flight school. He ultimately went to Auburn to be a part of a big school and get a degree in case he wanted to do other things than fly but yes we are definitely seeing a paradigm shift and I think its good. We need to keep sending more kids to trade schools and letting kids co to college early if thats their choice
What happens when kids who should be going to trade school end up going to college early?
Isnt the graduation rate of athletes down?
How will they pay for it? He said he would eliminate extracurricular activities. The usa already spends more on education per student than ANY country in the world. The problem is not spending.
PS. With online learning schools should be able to SLASH costs.
Will the EEs graduate?
I wonder how many academics actually enter college early vs athletes.
This is part of the issue in my mind. If 75% of college kids are switching majors- then whether or not they should be there in the first place is a legitimate question.
Our school and I personally am spearheading an Internship Program that will be tied to local businesses which span the range of professions to trades. We did our first week long Trades Camp. It was really cool- lessons and hands on with rigging, welding, plumbing and electric. The issues become partner costs and scale. We had 15 in this first trial. They did end up hiring one camper part time and others may end up full time down the road. A win- win for all!
Everyone has opinions re Education- including me. Inside the belly of the beast it isn't always pretty- but if we keep doing what is best for kids- and really listen- we will persevere and achieve our mission.
No, I don’t believe it is actually. And I don’t have the data in front of me but generally the non-athlete who goes to college actually transfers more times and takes longer to get a degree than the athletes do. You may be looking at just the narrow aspect of football, but overall athletes get diplomas at a higher rate and a quicker rate than the average student.
I get that- and remember many Engineering friends taking some weed out course at HACC. I always thought that was sort of cheating....but wasn't my problem.
In the end if all credits are homogenized then there will theoretically be no advantage to paying more for higher ranked schools.
I don't think it will be like that in my lifetime. As a PSU kid in a training class at a top 5 global ad agency in NYC I was one of very few public college grads. Yeah- once you are in the job your performance is the primary way to move ahead.
Eventually I was a Sr. VP at a top agency. At that point pedigree definitely creates some glass ceilings. The PSU network is strong. I hired many State grads. But sometimes being smart and good is not good enough....
It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out- but I'll be pushing daisies!
