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3rd Greatest College Wrestler

Callthestall

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2016
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Let's assume that Cael Sanderson and Dan Gable are 1&2 for greatest college wrestlers of all time.
Who would be your Number 3?
I would probably would say Kyle Dake. I'm not a fan of his style but 4 titles at 4 weights is pretty special.
 
I reject the notion that Gable was No. 2 but that may be blasphemous.
I’m with you.

Cael, Dake, Uetake are hard to argue with. Uetake’s stats are mind blowing.

Just imagine the agita if Cael used his Japanese connections to recruit another Uetake?
 
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Let's assume that Cael Sanderson and Dan Gable are 1&2 for greatest college wrestlers of all time.
Who would be your Number 3?
I would probably would say Kyle Dake. I'm not a fan of his style but 4 titles at 4 weights is pretty special.


Did you watch the FRL with Dake and Burroughs??
If not, go and watch the first 5 minutes then you will hear DAKE HIMSELF say that the “4 at 4weights” was not as big a deal as beating Taylor in finals. The 4 without a RS is more of a big deal (to me) then the 4@4.
 
Did you watch the FRL with Dake and Burroughs??
If not, go and watch the first 5 minutes then you will hear DAKE HIMSELF say that the “4 at 4weights” was not as big a deal as beating Taylor in finals. The 4 without a RS is more of a big deal (to me) then the 4@4.

Ditto that on the redshirt. To me four different weight classes is unusual but not really an accomplishment. He grew and cut less weight each season. Winning as a true frosh is more impressive, although he is not the only one to do so, just the only one that went on to be a 4x champ in four years. Pat Smith also won as a true frosh but then redshirted later on while OK State was on probabtion.
 
Ditto that on the redshirt. To me four different weight classes is unusual but not really an accomplishment. He grew and cut less weight each season. Winning as a true frosh is more impressive, although he is not the only one to do so, just the only one that went on to be a 4x champ in four years. Pat Smith also won as a true frosh but then redshirted later on while OK State was on probabtion.


MyMar won as a TF too,the rest is (forgotten) history.:cool:
 
Dan Gable is certainly a top ten all time college wrestler, falling somewhere below Cael, Dake, Kemp, Uetake, Dan Hodge (three timer, 46-0 with 36 pins) and Bill Koll (three timer, 72-0). Regardless of the circumstances, as a college wrestler, Gable won NCAA"s twice and lost once. Post college accolades are irrelevant to Callthestall's question.
 
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I might be seeing the world through blue-and-white-tinted glasses, but Dake couldn't beat Nickal if you normalized their weights.
 
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I might be seeing the world through blue-and-white-tinted glasses, but Dake couldn't beat Nickal if you normalized their weights.
I would love to see that match—both wrestlers exude confidence on the mat in rarified company.
 
I don’t mind wearing blue and white colored glasses either.
Zain Retherford had 3 career losses, all as a true freshman, two to a senior 4x national champ.
94 consecutive wins is 3rd all time (Cael, Smith).
The third wrestler all time to win back-to-back hodge trophies (Cael, Askren), and probably should have won a third.
 
I put Zain in my Top 10 also. You have to dig into context for these lists and for me, Zain's 3 year run was something else, should have been a 3x Hodge Winner.

He took one for the team and wrestled as an undersized freshman when we needed the points.
 
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Dan Gable is certainly a top ten all time college wrestler, falling somewhere below Cael, Dake, Kemp, Uetake, Dan Hodge (three timer, 46-0 with 36 pins) and Bill Koll (three timer, 72-0). Regardless of the circumstances, as a college wrestler, Gable won NCAA"s twice and lost once. Post college accolades are irrelevant to Callthestall's question.

Every time we do this, the same answer is clear. Gable isn't #2. Cael, Koll, Hodge, Uetake hold the top 4 slots. Undefeated wrestlers and champions every year they participated at nationals. Koll's wrestling made for rule changes, just like Lew Alcindor's bball did.

And yeah, I'd probably put Haselrig and Gray Simons 5 and 6.
 
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Personally I probably don't feel Gable is 2nd but was just inputting how history has viewed him. It seems this wrestling board has simaler thoughts about where he stands in history. I've read and watched quite a bit about Gable and feel his greatness was in his tenacity and work ethic. I believe numerous wrestlers since him would cause Gable to struggle against the more athletic kid.
I would have Dake 2nd with third being up for grabs. Retherford win streak is pretty special and how he actually would punish his victims is something that is not normally seen in upper tier college wrestling. I actually think Nolf/Nickal would have to be considered. Both of them with their ability to bonus guys was something that separates them from others.
I can not comment on some of the other guys that were mentioned because I didn't see them. I saw Carlton Haselerig win PA state title his senior year after his high school dropped wrestling. What he did in college was special,but it's hard to put his overall credentials against guys that competed Division 1 their whole career. He never lost in NCAA Division 1 tournament.
 

Thanks for posting that. Final answer: Cael, Hodge, Koll, Uetake.

Interesting to see Tom Martucci on the list of undefeated wrestlers. From D3 College of New Jersey (then Trenton State), in 1981 at Princeton's Jadwin Gym, he defeated unseeded Tony Mantella of Temple University to win the D1 190 pounds title. I was there, and it may be one of the strangest pairs of teams to meet in the finals of any weight class in the relatively modern era. Seriously - Trenton State against Temple?

https://nwhof.org/NCAA-Brackets/PDF/NCAA 1981.pdf
 
I had Spencer penciled in as the next undefeated 4 timer, and even if he had been undefeated up till now, we still wouldnt have one.
Cael’s amazing career may never be duplicated, truly one of the most unreachable records in all sports.
 
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Why no love for the 4-5 other 3xers that were undefeated ?

I'll admit it. There were some names in there that had me embarrassed as a fan of the sport. Keith Young, for example, never gets mentioned in these discussions and because of that, I had never heard of him. The other part is that participation in the tournament prior to WWII was very spotty, so you didn't have the level of competition that you did afterwards. So those guys don't get the same level of props. I think that's justified.
 
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I'm with you 82, amazing how little love Kemp gets. 19-0-1 at the NCAA tournament. If I knew how, I would post his win over over Gable at northern open when he was just 18. His final 3 years of college he was 110-0 and lost a total of 3 matches in college. One being the ref. dec. in the finals his freshman year. To put Gable #2 and not have Kemp in the same sentence is crazy. I know were only talking college but his freestyle wrestling was pretty darn good too. He became Americas first 3 time world champ the first one at age 21. If not for the boycott he would most likely be an Olympic champ too. In the following Olympic trials he lost in the finals to Dave Schultz. I think everyone is aware how Dave did at the Olympics.
 
Thanks for posting that. Final answer: Cael, Hodge, Koll, Uetake.

Interesting to see Tom Martucci on the list of undefeated wrestlers. From D3 College of New Jersey (then Trenton State), in 1981 at Princeton's Jadwin Gym, he defeated unseeded Tony Mantella of Temple University to win the D1 190 pounds title. I was there, and it may be one of the strangest pairs of teams to meet in the finals of any weight class in the relatively modern era. Seriously - Trenton State against Temple?

https://nwhof.org/NCAA-Brackets/PDF/NCAA 1981.pdf
I love looking at old brackets for kids I remember or knew. At 177 in the above brackets, Colin Kilrain of Lehigh finished 3rd. Factoid: Kilrain's son is in next year's Lehigh recruiting class. Guess they're hoping he's a chip off the old block.

On topic: I'm a Uetake kinda guy. But when considering top of all time, I look at ZTrain, Nolf, and NIchol and am in awe of their spectacular styles. If Cael had been coaching back in the day, wrestling would be vastly more popular because of the fireworks/excitement his kids bring to the mats.
 
I'm with you 82, amazing how little love Kemp gets. 19-0-1 at the NCAA tournament. If I knew how, I would post his win over over Gable at northern open when he was just 18. His final 3 years of college he was 110-0 and lost a total of 3 matches in college. One being the ref. dec. in the finals his freshman year. To put Gable #2 and not have Kemp in the same sentence is crazy. I know were only talking college but his freestyle wrestling was pretty darn good too. He became Americas first 3 time world champ the first one at age 21. If not for the boycott he would most likely be an Olympic champ too. In the following Olympic trials he lost in the finals to Dave Schultz. I think everyone is aware how Dave did at the Olympics.
If Kemp wore a blue singlet with a white belt, we'd still be talking about him being robbed of a 4th NCAA Championship and Olympic medal. And his life would have turned out a bit differently if this video was available to him in his younger days.
 
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I'm with you 82, amazing how little love Kemp gets. 19-0-1 at the NCAA tournament. If I knew how, I would post his win over over Gable at northern open when he was just 18. His final 3 years of college he was 110-0 and lost a total of 3 matches in college. One being the ref. dec. in the finals his freshman year. To put Gable #2 and not have Kemp in the same sentence is crazy. I know were only talking college but his freestyle wrestling was pretty darn good too. He became Americas first 3 time world champ the first one at age 21. If not for the boycott he would most likely be an Olympic champ too. In the following Olympic trials he lost in the finals to Dave Schultz. I think everyone is aware how Dave did at the Olympics.

the 1980 US Olympic team was pretty stacked. Kemp and Campbell were heavy favorites for the gold. Bobby Weaver and Randy Lewis won gold in 1984 and had a shot in 1980. Ben Peterson, Russ Helickson, and friggin Gene Mills

such a damn shame that they couldn't compete. just an awful decision by Jimmy Carter IMO. the mind set should have been let our guys go over there & kick soviet ass on soviet soil
 
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82, That is great. That should be taught in every high school health class will the fairer sex excluded. They can see the last 20 seconds for their class.

I've never seen that before and wonder if it has been suppressed but the divorce attorney industrial complex.
 
Why no love for the 4-5 other 3xers that were undefeated ?
Other than Sanderson, I think it's worth talking about the era's of college wrestling. Scoring, training, scheduling, everything frankly, was different.

Sanderson had 159 bouts, a total that is high by today's standards, so by that fact alone, my opinion, Cael's career performance is a GOAT achievement. Of all the other undefeated/untied guys on the list, Uetake and Hodge are the highest, at 57 and 46 respectively. Of the remaining 3-timers, Young had 43, Koll at 36, Peery at 29, McCreedy at 25, Arndt at 23 (3 total as a Senior Champ!), VanBebber at 22, and Caldwell at 18. Totally different landscape, and it's not close.

Speculation required, how would any of them do today? Many are from 30's, 40's, and 50's, so I'm calling it an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Frankly, I appreciate the inclusion of the Kemp's, Gable's, Dake's, Nolf's, Nickal's, and many others of the world in these discussions.

We're living in a time where the greatest wrestlers of all-time are likely those that folks my age and older have seen.
 
82, That is great. That should be taught in every high school health class will the fairer sex excluded. They can see the last 20 seconds for their class.

I've never seen that before and wonder if it has been suppressed but the divorce attorney industrial complex.
My wife is a divorce attorney. I'll have to ask her. On second thought...
 
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No love In this discussion for Pat Smith? He was the first four timer and he did win it as a true freshman (took a redshirt later after Junior year to help the team after they were sanctioned for NCAA violations). All four of his losses were freshman year. He had one tie as a freshman and one tie as a junior.
 
No love In this discussion for Pat Smith? He was the first four timer and he did win it as a true freshman (took a redshirt later after Junior year to help the team after they were sanctioned for NCAA violations). All four of his losses were freshman year. He had one tie as a freshman and one tie as a junior.


Not saying if he belongs or not but being the first at something does not mean much
 
Sorry, but I’m putting Zain ahead of Gable. I’m a little more forgiving for a loss as a true freshman over losing as a senior. How many “all time greats” in this discussion didn’t win a national title as a senior?
 
I was curious about Ed Banach career. His stats are truly unigue. He's a 3 time National Champ with his only loss in tournament coming at the hands of Mark Schultz his junior year in the finals. I just watched some video of that match and Banach tried to throw Schultz a few times and got caught. I think score was 16-8.
He had 73 pins in his career. Oddly enough he also had 9 losses. If I remember, Gable would bump up Ed in weight to wrestle some tougher kids. How times have changed about that situation.
 
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