So is Roger the best? He was for a month or so. Not sure how to judge the men walking on the moon but is Neil the best one to ever do it?
3rd Greatest College Wrestler
- Thread starter Callthestall
- Start date
Speaking of the Babe, here's a somewhat unknown story about him. My paternal grandfather practiced with him during this time.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-09-21-8703110652-story.html
https://i0.wp.com/images.phillypubl...n-mkd-042816-Luther-Harpel-03.jpg?w=540&ssl=1
Babe third from left in second row, along with Stan Kovaleski (I think extreme right in first row), Shoeless Joe Jackson (first row, third from left) and Rogers Hornsby (second row on extreme left) in the photo.
Babe third from left in second row, along with Stan Kovaleski (I think extreme right in first row), Shoeless Joe Jackson (first row, third from left) and Rogers Hornsby (second row on extreme left) in the photo.
First MLB player to hit 60 home runs in a single season. That was in 1927 and the record held for 34 years until Roger Maris hit 61in 1961. And that record lasted for 37 years! Nowadays, modern pharmacology makes the subsequent records a little cloudy.
Over the years I've loved trying to look up or pull together info to see how one might make the 'GOAT' or "all-time ranking" case for different greats-- it definitely leads to some fun, if not particularly productive, bracket deep dives!
For Uetake, here's how I think the argument might go (recycling some points that have already been made). I do personally think it's pretty instructive to account for senior level results of the greats while they are in college, since that's the best competition available to them and a lot of them "max out" of college competition or come close to it:
Why Yojiro Uetake may be the GOAT:
- Forget losses, he nearly went offensively unscored upon in NCAA competition-- giving up only 1 or 2 (I've seen both #'s) take-downs in his entire 3 year NCAA career.
- He also gave up 0 offensive points in the Olympics after his sophomore year at OKST- only a controversial caution to an all-time great (more below).
- In that 1964 Olympics run he beat incredible senior level competition...afterwards, of course, he had 2 more years of NCAA competition to go:
At Japan OTT he went 6-0 and defeated:
-1963 World Silver Hiroshi Ikeda
-1965 World Gold Tomiaki Fukuda
-1966 World Gold Masaaki Kaneko
-1969 World Gold Takeo Morita
At the Olympics, amongst others, he defeated:
-4X World Gold Hueyin Akbas (Turkey)
-Defending 1963 World Gold Aydin Ibrahimov (USSR) - He started wrestling less than 6 years before winning his first Gold medal. At age 19, in his 4th year of wrestling he took 3rd at Japan Senior Nationals. The Japanese reps at 52kg and 57kg, where he may have competed, both took Silver at Worlds that year (losing to 5X world champ Aliev and 4X world champ Akbas, respectively).
- He also won the Olympics in 1968 with no record (that I could find at least) of competing internationally between then and the 1964 Olympics.
- Dave Auble, after their 1964 Olympic bout:
“Everything I tried to do, he was a split second ahead of me. It was a blow out. It was devastating. I was totally demoralized. He won by a decision. I don’t know how he didn’t pin me. I had never had a match like that, even against world champs.”
[Auble went 75-2 in combined NCAA/AAU competition and took 4th twice at Olympics/Worlds (equivalent of a bronze today)]
- Bobby Douglas, who knows a thing or two about GOAT wrestlers said the below on Facebook last year:
"The greatest. He was the fastest wrestler I EVER WRESTLED. I worked out with him it was more like a fight than a workout. CAN'T EVER say I had a good day against HIM. I never saw anyone have a good day against UoJo."
[Douglas wrestled in weight classes 13 & 24 lbs. above Uetake. Douglas beat Gable, dominantly, in the 1968 and 1970 OTT/WTT's]
- Bill Harlow: "The best and most dominate wrestler I ever saw. He would do the same to today's wrestlers."
- Myron Roderick: "I don't know how good he was, because I never saw him challenged."
- Lee Roy Smith: “He had that combination of physical attributes, but his mental toughness was just so incredible. You were just not going to get anywhere with him. Then he had the athleticism to execute at a level nobody could compete with. He was explosive. You’d be off your feet in a second. He had these almost martial-arts qualities to him.”
- Dallas Cowboys pro-bowler Walt Garrison: “He was one of the greatest athletes I ever saw.”
[Uetake worked out with the football team before wrestling season started]
He started NCAA wrestling career on the late side. Having wrestled a year in college in Japan and then taking the mandatory freshmen NCAA redshirt, he was 21 yrs, 2 months at the time of his first NCAA tournament. By contrast, Lee Kemp was 21 yrs., 3 months at the time his 4th NCAA tournament and Gable was 21 yrs., 5 months at his Sr. Year NCAAs (both were on the young side). Would he have gone unbeaten in NCAA competition at age 19 or 20?
Further watching/reading:
Video of 1964 NCAA Finals:
Really informative/comprehensive profile:
https://theolympians.co/2016/06/15/...ro-uetake-part-1-technique-speed-and-victory/
https://theolympians.co/2016/06/17/...-uetake-part-2-born-in-japan-made-in-america/
Comments are fun to read here- contain many HOF's assessments on Uetake, including some of the quotes of above:
Maris hitting 61 wasn’t without controversy. His season had 162 games. Ruth hit 60 in a 154 game season. As a lost in time side note, Mickey Mantle was keeping close to Maris most of that season, ending the 1961 season with 54 homers.
Thanks. Wow. That is impressive! I wonder how long Cael’s achievement of 4 titles+undefeated will stay unequalled.
I suppose Cael’s achievement can actually be surpassed if someone matches it and also avoids any redshirt-year loss (and/or also goes four different weights).
The 159 is what will set Cael apart, guys dont normally come close to that number these days.
Correct. Very few starters wrestle in multiple regular season tournaments these day.
Not only that, but I thought I red somewhere that Cael NEVER missed a start. Unheard of these days.
Since Bannister did something that multiples of 1000s if not millions had tried and never been able to do prior to Bannister. Bannister's accomplishment was much greater than every post sub 4 minute mile.
I think that is the case, although freestyle at that time also had a lot of mat wrestling. Just different rules to score.
BTW, there are two other lightweight wrestlers after Uetake that I think could have given him a very interesting and exciting match. John Smith and Sergei Beloglazov. I wish I could get my hands on a DeLorean with a flux capacitor.
I just looked up the 1964 NCAA results.
Top 3 school Oklahoma St, Oklahoma, Iowa State. I need help about 4th place team that had 2 national champs, SIU-Carbondale. I'm not familiar with that school.?????
Lock Haven finished 7th and Penn State 8th. Mark Piven from PSU beat Bill Robb from Bloomsburg for 3rd place at 130, which Uetake won.
I saw one name that caught my eye from Pro Wrestling history. Jack Brisco from Ok. St. came in 2nd at 191.
In my memory, Bill Robb decked Billy Stuart in a Lehigh/Bloomsburg dual. My brother was a fraternity brother of Stuart's. Stuart was laughing about the match, cause Robb caught him in a leg cradle, which Stuart thought was pretty funny. Billy Stuart was NCAA champ in '65.
I rolled around once with Ted Lansky of Penn -certain kids from my high school were invited to the Palestra to practice with Penn's team. (They were really after our 180 pounder, who ended up as Penn's Captain.) Lansky was 5th behind Robb and Piven at the above mentioned championships.
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Southern Illinois at Carbondale was very strong back in the 1960's. They had some of the best wrestlers in the nation. SLU-C went for the football money and dropped wrestling in the 1970s. They have club wrestling now.
SIU-Carbondale had four individual champs at the 1st Midlands.
Heavyweight Larry Kristoff won four consecutive Midlands.
Kristoff went on to wrestle freestyle for the U.S. at the 1964 and 1968 Olympics.)
Kristoff was a long time successful coach at (Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville.
https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/02/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-southern.html
SIU-Carbondale had four individual champs at the 1st Midlands.
Heavyweight Larry Kristoff won four consecutive Midlands.
Kristoff went on to wrestle freestyle for the U.S. at the 1964 and 1968 Olympics.)
Kristoff was a long time successful coach at (Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville.
https://johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com/2020/02/gone-lost-forgotten-their-best-southern.html
Babe Ruth may not have set the bar but he was definitely at it.
My Grandpa played in the MLB in the 30s. From his stories, I think pretty much the whole league could be found at the bar in those days.
I chanced upon this video of the 1956 NCAA finals. There is one Penn State wrestler. But this video includes 3 of the most important names in wrestling in the 20th century. Ed Peery, who along with his brother and his father each won 3 NCAA titles. Ed was the long-time coach at Navy. Myron Roderick was Uetake's coach at OSU. And of course, Dan Hodge has his name permanently associated with the best wrestler in the land.
I'm old, but I never saw anyone wrestle without a shirt. Check out the mats. They weren't as hard as concrete, but were close. And does anyone remember mat burns? We always got them before resolite mats. They sucked. In practice we wore tights and sweatshirts to avoid mat burns.
It's a bummer, but the Hodge match was cut out of this. It just has the score. Sorry.
I'm old, but I never saw anyone wrestle without a shirt. Check out the mats. They weren't as hard as concrete, but were close. And does anyone remember mat burns? We always got them before resolite mats. They sucked. In practice we wore tights and sweatshirts to avoid mat burns.
It's a bummer, but the Hodge match was cut out of this. It just has the score. Sorry.
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Below is the men's long jump WR progression: Jesse Owens' mark, set on a cinder track, stood for 25 years; Beamon's mark stood for 23 years.
For streaks, Edwin Moses won 122 straight 400m hurdle races over nine years. Anyone remember Mike Shine?
Below is the men's long jump WR progression: Jesse Owens' mark, set on a cinder track, stood for 25 years; Beamon's mark stood for 23 years.
For streaks, Edwin Moses won 122 straight 400m hurdle races over nine years. Anyone remember Mike Shine?
Of course! Took second to Moses in Montreal. I used to look at a picture of him hanging up in the field house every day at practice.
For streaks, Edwin Moses won 122 straight 400m hurdle races over nine years. Anyone remember Mike Shine?[/QUOTE]
Mike was my sprint coach early 80's. Very competitive guy, hated losing more than he enjoyed winning. Always said Squirrel Hill out East College Ave. was the reason for his success and silver medal. I ran that hill more times than i care to remember. I don't think I could walk that hill these days!
http://www.bradfordera.com/sports/y...cle_fec660a2-b190-11e9-9d41-87a95606b596.html
Mike was my sprint coach early 80's. Very competitive guy, hated losing more than he enjoyed winning. Always said Squirrel Hill out East College Ave. was the reason for his success and silver medal. I ran that hill more times than i care to remember. I don't think I could walk that hill these days!
http://www.bradfordera.com/sports/y...cle_fec660a2-b190-11e9-9d41-87a95606b596.html
My father ex buisness partner was track coach at Meyers High in the 1960s and then became head track coach at Rider. . He went to all summer Olympics from 1964 thru 1984 with one exemption being the boycotted 1980 Moscow Olympics.
Among the track world there was a thought Beamon could break the record so he made sure to have a seat near the long jump pit when Beamon shattered the record.
He spoke of the dynamics of the 1968 Olympics from the Black Power controversy and the 1972 Munich games for the terrorist take over.
It's 50 years later and the National issue of 1968 was just revisited a few years ago by Kapernick. The Middle East issues are still problematic as they were in 1972.
Sometimes in history, a singular event is a mere moment of a larger dynamic of a issue.
Among the track world there was a thought Beamon could break the record so he made sure to have a seat near the long jump pit when Beamon shattered the record.
He spoke of the dynamics of the 1968 Olympics from the Black Power controversy and the 1972 Munich games for the terrorist take over.
It's 50 years later and the National issue of 1968 was just revisited a few years ago by Kapernick. The Middle East issues are still problematic as they were in 1972.
Sometimes in history, a singular event is a mere moment of a larger dynamic of a issue.
How do we know Dan Hodge really existed? Maybe the greatest trick Dan Hodge ever pulled was convincing the world he does exist.
That was no apparition that the wrestling club had the pleasure of hosting several years ago. It's a handshake that one might never forget, as your hand disappears in his large paw. Grip wasn't bad either
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