6th year

[Ski]

i think that was kind of the point though. women's programs don't (generally) make money, so there was little incentive to have them. Title IX came around and told colleges that if they wanted to have football and make money, they also had to create an equal number of women's scholarships. i don't consider that "messing up" the calculations. it seems like it's working exactly as intended.

perhaps reducing the football scholarships to 75 or 65 would drive those towards other men's programs, but i think the more likely result would be that women's programs would be cut.

That works as long as colleges can continue to use football players and to a lesser degree basketball players as cash cows that make those profits with the lion’s share going to the schools rather than being shared back with the athletes making the money. Will that model hold up over time?

 

[wrestlinPSU]

Is it many or most? I always assumed most schools can't fund 9.9 wrestlers, but I am probably wrong.
I think 15-20 scholarships might just kill the sport, as the rich would get richer and the poor would drop the sport entirely.

Yep, Cael wants 15 because PSU can and will fund them. Let’s widen the competitive gap just a little bit more. But I also understand the challenge of trying to operate a wrestling team with very limited scholarships.

 

[androcles]

...there was a time when wrestling had 19 full scholarships!...

 

[Ian]

Yep, Cael wants 15 because PSU can and will fund them. Let’s widen the competitive gap just a little bit more. But I also understand the challenge of trying to operate a wrestling team with very limited scholarships.

They all can fund them with what tuition is these days, what they pay the coaches, especially in other sports, and the dead weight that football carries! It’s Title IX that is the issue. Need to bring on woman’s wrestling, too, if it’s all about equality. No reason why CFB has 85 scholarships and 3rd and 4th teamers get full rides. Cut football to 70 ships and let them allocate percentages to backups. That’s insane that practice players get ships! Heck there are schools handing out ships for Esports!

 

[Callthestall]

I say one more weight (218) and 2 more scholarships.
Helps kids that are between 215 and 230 and gives some depth to roster at Heavyweight. Also gets close to freestyle weight for the kid that participates in both.
Plus gets you an odd number bout for tie break

 

[El-Jefe]

I say one more weight (218) and 2 more scholarships.
Helps kids that are between 215 and 230 and gives some depth to roster at Heavyweight. Also gets close to freestyle weight for the kid that participates in both.
Plus gets you an odd number bout for tie break

It will do the opposite of this -- it will dilute 197 and HWT. It won't draw any wrestlers away from football.

It will also return HWT to the Stolls and Jared Trices of the world, because the guys who push pace will be at 215-220.

Proximity to freestyle weight is the only argument for 215-220.

 

[dicemen99]

I say one more weight (218) and 2 more scholarships.
Helps kids that are between 215 and 230 and gives some depth to roster at Heavyweight. Also gets close to freestyle weight for the kid that participates in both.
Plus gets you an odd number bout for tie break

I'm with the Boss on this one. No reason for this weight class. Cassar was at 197 last year. If you're too big 197 it has been proven over and over that you can go up to 285 and be successful.

If you add a 215 the only guys left at 285 will be the the 250+ guys.

 

[McScoreley]

Anyone else thinks Patrick Brucki can be a pretty solid "undersized" Heavyweight? Dude looks bigger than Cassar, I don't know how he makes 197.

 

[tikk10]

I'm with the Boss on this one. No reason for this weight class. Cassar was at 197 last year. If you're too big 197 it has been proven over and over that you can go up to 285 and be successful.

If you add a 215 the only guys left at 285 will be the the 250+ guys.

I was going to say the same thing. Also, 285 already isn't a very populated class; introducing a 215 class would thin things out further, at both 205 and at the new class. The weight class designations are concerned with fairness, competitiveness, but also the practical concern of just how many students are available to participate within a given range.

Additionally, 285 would become nearly unwatchable if a light-heavyweight class was pulling members from its ranks.

 

[nitlion6]

I hate snap shot arguements, but I am throwing one out there for the helluva it.
With a 215, 218, 220 or 225 weight class this year we still would have had a Stevenson / White heavyweight final.

However, the points made are valid. A 220 weight, give or take, would greatly dilute the heavyweight talent pool.

 

[Callthestall]

I was going to say the same thing. Also, 285 already isn't a very populated class; introducing a 215 class would thin things out further, at both 205 and at the new class. The weight class designations are concerned with fairness, competitiveness, but also the practical concern of just how many students are available to participate within a given range.

Additionally, 285 would become nearly unwatchable if a light-heavyweight class was pulling members from its ranks.

I disagree with heavyweight being unwatchable.
Unwatchable was watching Cris Taylor and Tab Thacker.
Was Gwiz and Baumgarner unwatchable.
It would just add an option to the bigger athlete coming out of high school.
I think you're caught up in the fact some big heavyweights are plodding but not all.
Maybe you redo weights and go something like; 157,166,177,188,200,215, 285
Cassar goes 215 this year and Nevills wrestles.
At Nationals Stevenson and White/Nevills are probably in 285 finals. Your athletic kid would still rise to the top.

 

[El-Jefe]

I hate snap shot arguements, but I am throwing one out there for the helluva it.
With a 215, 218, 220 or 225 weight class this year we still would have had a Stevenson / White heavyweight final.

However, the points made are valid. A 220 weight, give or take, would greatly dilute the heavyweight talent pool.

Maybe. Or we could've still had a Cassar-White final, just at 220 instead of HWT. 240-lb Bulk Job might have done fewer squats to stay at 220.

Then we get a Steveson-Wood HWT final, and while they're both athletic, that 3rd place match was dull.

 

[McScoreley]

Not sure this is a popular take but I really don't think we need a weight class between 197 and 285 .... it's such a large gap but that allows leeway for wrestlers to decide which style they want, that's part of what makes it so entertaining IMO. We saw two opposite builds in Kyle Snyder and Adam Coon and those matches were VERY entertaining.

For Cassar, I don't think he minds at all giving up 40 - 50 pounds to slower heavyweights. If anything, I think he prefers that (obviously I can't say for sure) to someone around his size but has similar wrestling styles. Jacob Kasper (think he weighed 210 - 215 at NCAAs last year) I think gave up 50 pounds to Stoll and headlocked him into oblivion last year.

 

[nitlion6]

I disagree with heavyweight being unwatchable.
Unwatchable was watching Cris Taylor and Tab Thacker.
Was Gwiz and Baumgarner unwatchable.
It would just add an option to the bigger athlete coming out of high school.
I think you're caught up in the fact some big heavyweights are plodding but not all.
Maybe you redo weights and go something like; 157,166,177,188,200,215, 285
Cassar goes 215 this year and Nevills wrestles.
At Nationals Stevenson and White/Nevills are probably in 285 finals. Your athletic kid would still rise to the top.

Eliminate one of the 125, 133, 141 or 149 groupings?
I could see something like 174 to 177, 184 to 190 and 197 to 208 - 210.

 

[nitlion6]

Maybe. Or we could've still had a Cassar-White final, just at 220 instead of HWT. 240-lb Bulk Job might have done fewer squats to stay at 220.

Then we get a Steveson-Wood HWT final, and while they're both athletic, that 3rd place match was dull.

Since White is more like 240 to 250 (IIRC White weighed 248 at Scuffle) pounds without much fat I am not sure something around 220 would have been his preference. However, since he started as a 197 pounder maybe he pulls the reins in on the weight gain when he reaches 225.

 

[Callthestall]

Eliminate one of the 125, 133, 141 or 149 groupings?
I could see something like 174 to 177, 184 to 190 and 197 to 208 - 210.

I would like your idea if they don't add 11th weight

 

[District four]

Oh god, here we go.... maybe we should start a new thread?

If you can read this your laying on your back that's what it says. Either that or iowa sucks

 

[nitlion6]

I would like your idea if they don't add 11th weight

I don't want one of the smaller weights eliminated either.
I wrote eliminate 125, 133, 141 or 149? The question mark was because you listed 157(1), 166(2), 177(3), 188(4), 200(5), 215(6) and 285(7) 7 weights, so I was asking if you were proposing 11 weights or eliminating 1 of the first 4 weights?

 

[El-Jefe]

Since White is more like 240 to 250 (IIRC White weighed 248 at Scuffle) pounds without much fat I am not sure something around 220 would have been his preference. However, since he started as a 197 pounder maybe he pulls the reins in on the weight gain when he reaches 225.

He weighed 241 for the national final.

But either way, he wasn't always at that weight. He was a 197 at Nebraska. The S&C plan that got him into the 240s could've been modified last year to keep him in the 220s.

Or he might have gone HWT anyway because Smith had no other options there. So who knows.

 

[Callthestall]

I don't want one of the smaller weights eliminated either.
I wrote eliminate 125, 133, 141 or 149? The question mark was because you listed 157(1), 166(2), 177(3), 188(4), 200(5), 215(6) and 285(7) 7 weights, so I was asking if you were proposing 11 weights or eliminating 1 of the first 4 weights?

I was proposing 11 weights with some adjusting some weights from 157 on up. Maybe if a 11th weight they could adjust all weights, including lowering 125 down a couple of pounds maybe around 120. It would help the small undersized kid that was great in high school. I'm not sure what is the lightest weight in international freestyle but I know it use to be 105. Hence, this is why Bobby Weaver was better in freestyle than college at 118.

 

[El-Jefe]

I was proposing 11 weights with some adjusting some weights from 157 on up. Maybe if a 11th weight they could adjust all weights, including lowering 125 down a couple of pounds maybe around 120. It would help the small undersized kid that was great in high school. I'm not sure what is the lightest weight in international freestyle but I know it use to be 105. Hence, this is why Bobby Weaver was better in freestyle than college at 118.

The lightest freestyle weight is 57 kg = 125.4 lb. Most top contenders are 133s who cut to 57 kg. The 125s generally add muscle after college to compete internationally.

Today there are very few great HS kids who are too small for 125 after a shirt. And as is 125 is the hardest weight to recruit due to scarcity -- because most kids outgrow the weight.

 

[Sportfan2017]

I was proposing 11 weights with some adjusting some weights from 157 on up. Maybe if a 11th weight they could adjust all weights, including lowering 125 down a couple of pounds maybe around 120. It would help the small undersized kid that was great in high school. I'm not sure what is the lightest weight in international freestyle but I know it use to be 105. Hence, this is why Bobby Weaver was better in freestyle than college at 118.

El-Jefe is spot on. I remember when High School had a 98lb. weight class. It was hard to find a 9th grader to fill the spot. Forfeits and unhealthy cuts were the norm. 120 in College? With the current weigh-in/hydration/decent rules...….Yeah...…..why not have a Unicorn division as well?

 

[El-Jefe]

I'll throw this back and ask: exactly who are the "small undersized kids that were great in high school" who need a weight class below 125?

I'll spot Devin Brown. After that ... ??

And before anyone says Devin Schnupp: highest place was 6th at states. Good but not great in HS.

This is just like the 215-220 class -- a solution in search of a problem.

 

[Jkos11]

I'll spot Devin Brown.

When he bumped up to wrestle Zach at 113 and got stuck I knew he couldn’t handle 125. Hartman was a freshman, albeit a guy who would have likely AA this year minus the knee but still he was 3 years older at the lower weight bumping up.

 

[Callthestall]

I'll throw this back and ask: exactly who are the "small undersized kids that were great in high school" who need a weight class below 125?

I'll spot Devin Brown. After that ... ??

And before anyone says Devin Schnupp: highest place was 6th at states. Good but not great in HS.

This is just like the 215-220 class -- a solution in search of a problem.

Jordan Conway was 112 his Senior year in high school. It would give an opportunity to the first or second year kid that is undersized an opportunity to compete on a more fair platform. 125 was created as a drastic move by NCAA because of the weight loss deaths. It had been 118 for years.
My argument isn't about what is the most appealing for us fans but what would be fairest to the small kid coming out of high school. Also it would help the small 200 pound kid an opportunity to get recruited knowing that the low 200 weight exist.
You can't argue this both ways. If you don't like guys cutting to 120 then you can't say the a kid that is a walking 220-230 should be made to try to go to 197.
My thought is far more about the smaller or bigger kids get having more opportunities. A mid weight kid probably has 3 weights to compete for a spot and garnish scholarship money.
Just my opinion.

 

[El-Jefe]

Jordan Conway was 112 his Senior year in high school. It would give an opportunity to the first or second year kid that is undersized an opportunity to compete on a more fair platform. 125 was created as a drastic move by NCAA because of the weight loss deaths. It had been 118 for years.
My argument isn't about what is the most appealing for us fans but what would be fairest to the small kid coming out of high school. Also it would help the small 200 pound kid an opportunity to get recruited knowing that the low 200 weight exist.
You can't argue this both ways. If you don't like guys cutting to 120 then you can't say the a kid that is a walking 220-230 should be made to try to go to 197.
My thought is far more about the smaller or bigger kids get having more opportunities. A mid weight kid probably has 3 weights to compete for a spot and garnish scholarship money.
Just my opinion.

Considering he was an All-American at 133, Conaway is a poor example of someone who was too small to wrestle college 125.

And I never said anyone at 220-230 had to cut to 197. I did say that kid should be competitive at HWT. Snyder, Cassar, Kasper, Walz, etc., are examples of this.

Actually that might not be true of Kasper -- he might not have been that heavy.

 

[androcles]

...to El-Jefe...
...the most notable of several who would have undoubtedly benefitted from a weight class below the then-existing lowest was Easton HS and then Lehigh's Bobbie Weaver who never reached the top step at NCAAs but then won an Olympic gold medal...
...Bobbie won PIAA titles at 98#s his Soph and Jr years and then at 105#s his Senior year(1977)... the lowest collegiate weight at the time was 118#s ...
... in 1984 he won the Olympics @
105.5 #s...

 

[El-Jefe]

...to El-Jefe...
...the most notable of several who would have undoubtedly benefitted from a weight class below the then-existing lowest was Easton HS and then Lehigh's Bobbie Weaver who never reached the top step at NCAAs but then won an Olympic gold medal...
...Bobbie won PIAA titles at 98#s his Soph and Jr years and then at 105#s his Senior year(1979)... the lowest collegiate weight at the time was 118#s ...
... in 1984 he won the Olympics @
105.5 #s...

Do you have any examples from the past 5 years?

1980s are entirely irrelevant, in that nobody rearranges weights today based upon results from 35 years ago.

 

[nerfstate]

I guess we'll see, but McHenry could fit the bill.

 

[matter7172]

I guess we'll see, but McHenry could fit the bill.

Jacob Decatur and a few others. There are a couple highly ranked hs juniors at 106. You have to think 125 is going to be a reach for them.

 

[Callthestall]

Considering he was an All-American at 133, Conaway is a poor example of someone who was too small to wrestle college 125.

And I never said anyone at 220-230 had to cut to 197. I did say that kid should be competitive at HWT. Snyder, Cassar, Kasper, Walz, etc., are examples of this.

Actually that might not be true of Kasper -- he might not have been that heavy.

Conway would of struggled his first 2 years at 125 and went 133 because of Nico

 

[El-Jefe]

Conway would of struggled his first 2 years at 125 and went 133 because of Nico

Conaway shirted his first year. It must have worked, because ...

His RSFR year is when he beat Graff at 133.

Why he went 133 is immaterial. He went there and succeeded. Therefore he was not too small to succeed.

 

[Callthestall]

Brad Silimperi was a prime example of a kid who would be undersized for 125.
I' m not saying that kids can't grow into 125 but I'm say that the 17-18 year old should have opportunity to to compete his freshman year. Not all kids want to go 5 plus years nor do the parents that have to pay for school.

 

[El-Jefe]

Again, need RECENT examples. Silimperi has been coaching for a long time.

So far in the current 10 year window, today +/- 5 years, we have: Brown, maybe Conaway, maybe McHenry, maybe Decatur, maybe a couple HS juniors.

Where are the other 70+ starters per year coming from?

Plus the depth guys, so college wrestling isn't littered with lightweight forfeits like high school is.

 

[Cowbell Man]

Do you have any examples from the past 5 years?

1980s are entirely irrelevant, in that nobody rearranges weights today based upon results from 35 years ago.

In addition, the deaths to drastic weight loss at 118 were just as likely becuase the population is getting bigger overall. That weight class should have been raised earlier.

Lowest weight I can remember in HS is the 88lb class. Then 91. Then I forget what was next. Now 99. Those classes where optional in a dual...so no forfeit if a team didn’t have a wrestler that weight. It’s the recognition of a growing average weight in our population that made the moves.

Of course, we could have kept 118. Thank goodness that kind of thinking didn’t guide our home building. We’d all be stooped over walking down the hall to sleep in a bed where our legs dangle over.

However, I do prefer to not have a 225 class. The dancing bears are just too pervasive, so many to the so few athletic one. How many times did people mention on telecasts and other that people weren’t heading for exits when HWT came on. Snyder kept butts in seats.

 

[ss7]

Brad Silimperi was a prime example of a kid who would be undersized for 125.
I' m not saying that kids can't grow into 125 but I'm say that the 17-18 year old should have opportunity to to compete his freshman year. Not all kids want to go 5 plus years nor do the parents that have to pay for school.

17-18 year olds have the opportunity to compete right now as freshmen.

A very small percentage of them might be at a disadvantage because they weigh less than the lowest weight class, but that hardly seems like reason to expand the lower weights. There will always be a handful of guys too small for the lowest weight and too big for heavyweight.

 

[dbldoofus]

Jim Gibbons goes to a party and leaves his hips at home.

 

[dbldoofus]

Jim Gibbons goes to a party and leaves his hips at home.

Oops. Wrong thread. That was for the April Fools thread.
What a doofus!

 

[Callthestall]

Again, need RECENT examples. Silimperi has been coaching for a long time.

So far in the current 10 year window, today +/- 5 years, we have: Brown, maybe Conaway, maybe McHenry, maybe Decatur, maybe a couple HS juniors.

Where are the other 70+ starters per year coming from?

Plus the depth guys, so college wrestling isn't littered with lightweight forfeits like high school is.

First of all I never said go back to 118 , I said around 120 - 122. If you have 11 weights I would think you could go 121 129 137,145 154, 163 ,174 ,186, 199, 215, 285
From what was discussed it sounded like Teske was undersized this year. I know if I was paying out of state tuition I would not want to be on the hook for a fifth year if my son had the academic ability to graduate in 4 years and compete his freshman year.
More recent undersized 125 pounder was Ethan Lisak . He was going to red shirt his freshman year but because of injuries he wrestled 125 and was man handled in a lot of matches.

 

[El-Jefe]

First of all I never said go back to 118 , I said around 120 - 122. If you have 11 weights I would think you could go 121 129 137,145 154, 163 ,174 ,186, 199, 215, 285
From what was discussed it sounded like Teske was undersized this year. I know if I was paying out of state tuition I would not want to be on the hook for a fifth year if my son had the academic ability to graduate in 4 years and compete his freshman year.
More recent undersized 125 pounder was Ethan Lisak . He was going to red shirt his freshman year but because of injuries he wrestled 125 and was man handled in a lot of matches.

Add 118, drop to 120, same thing -- the bodies aren't there. It's hard to find 70+ good starters at 125 every single year. Making the limit 5 lb lighter makes that harder, not easier.

Until you can ID 60+ guys who would legitimately benefit from it every year -- not starve themselves into a lineup spot -- what's the point?

You are right about this: if Lizak were undersized, one solution would have been to drive all of his competition up a weight. (Then again, was he undersized when he finished 4th at states the year before, or did he need work?)

You're also adding an 11th weight class, which is a total non-starter with the NCAA due to Title IX.