CNN Headline on Paterno

[bdgan]

Whether or not you believe Sandusky is innocent or guilty as a whole is irrelevant to Joe. Do you believe a sexual assault happened in 2001 that was witness by Mike McQueary? I think it is 100% clear that no such assault happened. The actual boy remained friends with Sandusky well into adulthood and adamantly defending him even after Sandusky's arrest. Yes, he did eventually turn on Sandusky after he was promised $$$ by a lawyer and his career prospects were likely shot due to a DUI, but even then, he can't give a consistent story and his actual testimony at Sandusky's PCRA completely contradicted his own attorneys earlier statement.

Also, in the 1998 incident that Joe may or may not known about, the boy remained friends with Sandusky for 13 more years. He testified at trial that the incident where Sandusky picked him in the shower was the only time Sandusky ever did anything to him that seemed inappropriate. Only a year before Sandusky's arrest, the now 24 year old young man send Jerry a text that said "Happy Fathers Day! I am so glad God has placed you in my life"

Even if Sandusky is guilty is molesting some of the boys, It is clear Joe was never informed about any sexual assaults.

One problem is that there is a very loose definition of sexual assault. Rubbing up against a kid naked would be sexual assault but it certainly isn't the same thing as anal rape. It seems unlikely that MM witnessed anal rape. That would have been nearly impossible from a standing position. Besides, MM testified that the boy was not in distress.

None of us know exactly what Joe was told. We do know that JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz all told similar stories and MM admitted that he used soft language when speaking to Joe. We also know that MM didn't feel compelled to call the police or get the kid out of there that night.

Did C&S do enough? I don't think so. Should Joe have done more? Maybe. Did the 3 conspire to coverup in order to protect football? No evidence whatsoever.

 

[RussianEagle]

One problem is that there is a very loose definition of sexual assault. Rubbing up against a kid naked would be sexual assault but it certainly isn't the same thing as anal rape. It seems unlikely that MM witnessed anal rape. That would have been nearly impossible from a standing position. Besides, MM testified that the boy was not in distress.

None of us know exactly what Joe was told. We do know that JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz all told similar stories and MM admitted that he used soft language when speaking to Joe. We also know that MM didn't feel compelled to call the police or get the kid out of there that night.

Did C&S do enough? I don't think so. Should Joe have done more? Maybe. Did the 3 conspire to coverup in order to protect football? No evidence whatsoever.

The idea that a child molester would attempt to "groom" boys into a sexual relationship, stop the grooming before a sexual relationship develops, but then continue a close friendship with the boy into adulthood is something the experts say does not happen. They say molesters will ditch kids when they begin to resist grooming. That didn't happen.

Jerry grew up in a rec center during an era when men and boys horsing around in the shower was quite common. Even today, boys horse around white showering together naked. Doesn't mean they are gay.

 

[RussianEagle]

I actually agree that Curley and Schultz should have done more. An actual police report would have immediately quashed McQuearys story about witnessing a sexual assault, which he developed in order to help the investigation so that he could avoid getting into trouble for sending dick pics.

 

[indynittany]

Geez, the level of denial displayed here is impressive. Honestly, it's textbook.

The real issue of course is the strong need some people have to preserve the myth they've created of Joe. Thus the tortured, pathetic defense of Jerry.

Because to a rational mind, the evidence is overwhelming and indisputable that Jerry is a serial predator, who ruined the lives of a bunch of kids.

As for Joe, well, as I said earlier, the story as it pertains to him contains as many elements of tragedy as of villainy.

I'll never forget the many good and great things Joe did. Do they outweigh the fateful failure of judgment and character that led to his downfall? In that question lies the tragedy.

1) Joe was not a myth. The man led an exemplary life.

2) Jerry's guilt is immaterial to Paterno's role in any of this.

3) The villainy can be liberally spread around, but none of it belongs with C/S/S/P. The worst that can be said about them is that they were fooled by a serial predator.

4) There was no failure of judgment or character. There's simply no reason to think Joe had suspected that the president of the university had decided to do anything other than the right thing. For there to have been a failure of judgment or character, he would have had to have known C/S/S messed up. And in fact, they didn't. Their actions were preventive and appropriate because there was no report of CSA.

 

[getmyjive11]

1) Joe was not a myth. The man led an exemplary life.

2) Jerry's guilt is immaterial to Paterno's role in any of this.

3) The villainy can be liberally spread around, but none of it belongs with C/S/S/P. The worst that can be said about them is that they were fooled by a serial predator.

4) There was no failure of judgment or character. There's simply no reason to think Joe had suspected that the president of the university had decided to do anything other than the right thing. For there to have been a failure of judgment or character, he would have had to have known C/S/S messed up. And in fact, they didn't. Their actions were preventive and appropriate because there was no report of CSA.

LOL. So pathetic.

 

[pandaczar12]

As for Joe, well, as I said earlier, the story as it pertains to him contains as many elements of tragedy as of villainy.

I'll never forget the many good and great things Joe did. Do they outweigh the fateful failure of judgment and character that led to his downfall? In that question lies the tragedy.

You've been called out on your opinion of Joe and how it's not based in reality. You avoid providing a response backing up your position. Either man up or stop posting on the subject, we have no need around here for closed minded trolls. You've got so few posts, it would be easy for you to review them and the multitude of responses you've ignored.

 

[pandaczar12]

LOL. So pathetic.

If your opinion was correct, or as prevalent as you claim it is... you wouldn't be here.

I strongly believe the world is round, but don't feel the need to rant endlessly online about it.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

If your opinion was correct, or as prevalent as you claim it is... you wouldn't be here.

I strongly believe the world is round, but don't feel the need to rant endlessly online about it.

Hey black kettle. You guys bring this crap up daily.

 

[crm114psu]

Hey black kettle. You guys bring this crap up daily.

ssdd

 

[Mixolydian]

Hey black kettle. You guys bring this crap up daily.

It's SSDD unless it's your shit right LaNotta Lion? What a clown.

 

[pandaczar12]

It's SSDD unless it's your shit right LaNotta Lion? What a clown.

I have no idea what he said, but you get a like anyway. He of all people would have some nerve to say SSDD to others, he's the king of doing that, and it's why I blocked him.

 

[denniskembala]

I have no idea what he said, but you get a like anyway. He of all people would have some nerve to say SSDD to others, he's the king of doing that, and it's why I blocked him.

Crap for brains La Notta isn't smart enough to realize he's blocked. Aside from a blockhead.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

It's SSDD unless it's your shit right LaNotta Lion? What a clown.

LOL, mixophile. Protect your fantasy clan, get those victims mixophile. Same tools 6 years later thinking AF being an idiot holds their key. Maybe MtNitt can post the pic again. It's pretty much proves the whole thing was a sham.

JZ took you idiots for a ride and instead of owning it, you all keep doubling down. You wonder how the Nigerian princes picked apart the senior community, walking proof lives here. Really is SSDD. Get Matt Sandusky. Kill MM!!! The prosecution is the devil. Jerry got hosed!!!! LMAO anymore at the ship of tools.

 

[Zenophile]

LOL, mixophile. Protect your fantasy clan, get those victims mixophile.

 

[Mixolydian]

LOL, mixophile. Protect your fantasy clan, get those victims mixophile. Same tools 6 years later thinking AF being an idiot holds their key. Maybe MtNitt can post the pic again. It's pretty much proves the whole thing was a sham.

JZ took you idiots for a ride and instead of owning it, you all keep doubling down. You wonder how the Nigerian princes picked apart the senior community, walking proof lives here. Really is SSDD. Get Matt Sandusky. Kill MM!!! The prosecution is the devil. Jerry got hosed!!!! LMAO anymore at the ship of tools.

Victims? JZ? Matt Sandusky? Your post isn't responsive to a single thing I've ever posted. Get some anger mananagement or something. These little hissy fits you throw can't be good for you.

Doesn't the school you went to have a board you can hang out on for non-football related subjects? LMAO at you. Carry on.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Victims? JZ? Matt Sandusky? Your post isn't responsive to a single thing I've ever posted.

Doesn't the school you went to have a board you can hang out on for non-football related subjects? LMAO at you. Carry on.

That's right you never say anything mix. This is your call for justice so you carry it out here. You need a good hug and a cry I think. I get it as it was a bad deal.

You're more angry at Jive and LaNottta than you are with Jerry. It pretty much sums you up perfectly!!! By all means, you carry on. I'm the real problem here. How dare people not carry your banner. You pretentious F.

 

[Mixolydian]

That's right you never say anything mix. This is your call for justice so you carry it out here. You need a good hug and a cry I think. I get it as it was a bad deal.

You're more angry at Jive and LaNottta than you are with Jerry. It pretty much sums you up perfectly!!! By all means, you carry on. I'm the real problem here. How dare people not carry your banner. You pretentious F.

LMAO. Angry? You take yourself way too seriously.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

LMAO. Angry? You take yourself way too seriously.

Too funny. Now hold out that finger and lecture some more hero. I love the hypocrisy in your post there. Well played.

 

[RussianEagle]

Victims? JZ? Matt Sandusky? Your post isn't responsive to a single thing I've ever posted. Get some anger mananagement or something. These little hissy fits you throw can't be good for you.

Doesn't the school you went to have a board you can hang out on for non-football related subjects? LMAO at you. Carry on.

I unblocked LaJolla so I can see exactly what he's pissed about. I don't understand how someone could be so offended over the consideration that Jerry Sandusky may have been wrongly convicted. No one is saying child sexual abuse is okay. Is it really so terrible to consider that several adult men who grew up without fathers and in poor households may have told a lie for a few million bucks.

As for JZ, yes he could be an asshole. No one is saying otherwise. But if he is so easy to refute why not just do it rather than resorting to the angry personal insults? Here is an article by Ray Blehar, a man who is an enemy of Ziegler and has not made a public declaration of Sandusky's innocence. I don't see how anyone could read the actual stories of how these young men became "victims" and not at least consider that Sandusky may have been railroaded.

http://notpsu.blogspot.com/2013/08/were-politics-deciding-factor-in.html?m=1

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I unblocked LaJolla so I can see exactly what he's pissed about. I don't understand how someone could be so offended over the consideration that Jerry Sandusky may have been wrongly convicted. No one is saying child sexual abuse is okay. Is it really so terrible to consider that several adult men who grew up without fathers and in poor households may have told a lie for a few million bucks.

As for JZ, yes he could be an asshole. No one is saying otherwise. But if he is so easy to refute why not just do it rather than resorting to the angry personal insults? Here is an article by Ray Blehar, a man who is an enemy of Ziegler and has not made a public declaration of Sandusky's innocence. I don't see how anyone could read the actual stories of how these young men became "victims" and not at least consider that Sandusky may have been railroaded.

http://notpsu.blogspot.com/2013/08/were-politics-deciding-factor-in.html?m=1

Funny thing is those that are upset with me need to stick their fingers in their ear or resort to attacks because they don't want to come to grips with what Jerry is. They want to hold on to the fantasy that it was all just a bad dream. Ray doesn't think Jerry is innocent unless something has changed. Be mad at me or put me on ignore, it just shows the level of denial out there. I didn't visit Jerry in prison but nobody says boo to the guy that did because he goves them hope it was that bad dream. It's a funny thing to watch.

Jerry isn't a victim. That isn't some mean spirited comment, it's reality. He didn't just accidentally keep getting little boys alone over and over again.

 

[pandaczar12]

Victims? JZ? Matt Sandusky? Your post isn't responsive to a single thing I've ever posted. Get some anger mananagement or something. These little hissy fits you throw can't be good for you.

Doesn't the school you went to have a board you can hang out on for non-football related subjects? LMAO at you. Carry on.

You are describing someone I have on ignore to a 'T'. Do yourself a favor and ignore him like everyone else does.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

You are describing someone I have on ignore to a 'T'. Do yourself a favor and ignore him like everyone else does.

Yes, please do. This way you can keep your little fantasies to each other. If you only hear your own opinions they become even more of a reality. Funny thing is I say Jerry is guilty as SH!t and yet a few here cannot handle hearing that. So much misinformation was put out here for years it became fact to some. This place could be a case study for denial. Sadly it is the same 15-20 people as most do skip over the recycled arguments void of any new information. But yeah, ignore me because I'm not a sympathetic ear for Jerry or the con man JZ.

 

[Mixolydian]

Yes, please do. This way you can keep your little fantasies to each other. If you only hear your own opinions they become even more of a reality. Funny thing is I say Jerry is guilty as SH!t and yet a few here cannot handle hearing that. So much misinformation was put out here for years it became fact to some. This place could be a case study for denial. Sadly it is the same 15-20 people as most do skip over the recycled arguments void of any new information. But yeah, ignore me because I'm not a sympathetic ear for Jerry or the con man JZ.

You're like a yapping dog that won't stop. You post at 3:38 am to yap some more. Something isn't right there don't you think? It's not healthy.

My advice is to get away from this board once in awhile, or at the very least avoid the scandal discussions. You have never added anything new to the discussion and can't even seem to keep track of the points of view of those with whom you argue.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

You're like a yapping dog that won't stop. You post at 3:38 am to yap some more. Something isn't right there don't you think? It's not healthy.

My advice is to get away from this board once in awhile, or at the very least avoid the scandal discussions. You have never added anything new to the discussion and can't even seem to keep track of the points of view of those with whom you argue.

That is what happens when you have a 1 year old that won't sleep after a round of shots on Friday. So once again you make another bad assumption and really should look in the mirror when handing out advice. Then again all you really do is lob grenades and never say anything...you let others do the heavy lifting and yell from the outside. It kind of speaks volumes really. What's the matter mix, you don't like me telling steve Jerry is guilty? If you don't have a problem with me saying that, then STFU already.

 

[pandaczar12]

You're like a yapping dog that won't stop. You post at 3:38 am to yap some more. Something isn't right there don't you think? It's not healthy.

My advice is to get away from this board once in awhile, or at the very least avoid the scandal discussions. You have never added anything new to the discussion and can't even seem to keep track of the points of view of those with whom you argue.

Well said, there is a little group here that keep posting their narrative over and over, with no desire to be open minded to the opinion of others. I'll just never understand why they feel compelled to constantly state their opinion and insult people who don't agree. It's like there is something wrong with them. That's why there is an ignore option, to drown out the close minded.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Well said, there is a little group here that keep posting their narrative over and over, with no desire to be open minded to the opinion of others. I'll just never understand why they feel compelled to constantly state their opinion and insult people who don't agree. It's like there is something wrong with them. That's why there is an ignore option, to drown out the close minded.

Ummm, you basically just said you don't want to hear any opinion but your own. Then proceeded to call others close minded. If by narrative you mean Jerry is a guilty boy loving crazy serial pedophile...yes that is what I do say...guilty as charged.

The epitome of hypocrisy....JERRY IS A VICTIM of a corrupt criminal justice system....if you don't think so...I hate you...you go on ignore. Damn close minded people!!!!

 

[Connorpozlee]

1) Joe was not a myth. The man led an exemplary life.

2) Jerry's guilt is immaterial to Paterno's role in any of this.

3) The villainy can be liberally spread around, but none of it belongs with C/S/S/P. The worst that can be said about them is that they were fooled by a serial predator.

4) There was no failure of judgment or character. There's simply no reason to think Joe had suspected that the president of the university had decided to do anything other than the right thing. For there to have been a failure of judgment or character, he would have had to have known C/S/S messed up. And in fact, they didn't. Their actions were preventive and appropriate because there was no report of CSA.

I would agree with point 1. Doesn't mean he was infallible, but he wasn't a "football first over morality" guy.
I would actually agree with point 2 as well. Jerry's guilt (proven in a court of law) or innocence doesn't prove or disprove that any of these guys did what they should have.
Disagree with point three on the premise that the worst that can be said is that they were fooled by Jerry. If they (Curley and Schultz, specifically) called police or protective services this whole thing is a different story.
I pretty much agree with point four. Joe's role here was to pass the information on to those who were responsible for handling it. It was not his place to hold their hands to do what needed to be done. And they did seem to respond as though there was no report of CSA, but still should have made a report.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

Well said, there is a little group here that keep posting their narrative over and over, with no desire to be open minded to the opinion of others. I'll just never understand why they feel compelled to constantly state their opinion and insult people who don't agree. It's like there is something wrong with them. That's why there is an ignore option, to drown out the close minded.

not only do they constantly state their "opinion", they are CONSTANTLY proven wrong, corrected, shown where they deliberately omitted relevant facts, etc . . . and it is like once a week they press the RESET button and go back to spewing the same false crap over and over again.

 

[TenerHallTerror]

I would agree with point 1. Doesn't mean he was infallible, but he wasn't a "football first over morality" guy.
I would actually agree with point 2 as well. Jerry's guilt (proven in a court of law) or innocence doesn't prove or disprove that any of these guys did what they should have.
Disagree with point three on the premise that the worst that can be said is that they were fooled by Jerry. If they (Curley and Schultz, specifically) called police or protective services this whole thing is a different story.
I pretty much agree with point four. Joe's role here was to pass the information on to those who were responsible for handling it. It was not his place to hold their hands to do what needed to be done. And they did seem to respond as though there was no report of CSA, but still should have made a report.

here's where most people get a little turned sideways, so it is important to note:

you can say they SHOULD have reported this to the police all day, and it is a debatable point. but the bottom line is that not only were they NOT REQUIRED BY LAW to report it to the police, they reported it to someone who was LEGALLY OBLIGATED to report to state agencies.

and THAT person testified against Spanier. sick, right?

 

[pandaczar12]

not only do they constantly state their "opinion", they are CONSTANTLY proven wrong, corrected, shown where they deliberately omitted relevant facts, etc . . . and it is like once a week they press the RESET button and go back to spewing the same false crap over and over again.

Excellent point, and their behavior is especially strange considering they have this "the entire world agrees with me" attitude. Even still, I'm always open to a discussion with opposing points of view, but these obsessed clowns are different. They just want to repeatedly state their opinions and ignore anyone else's opinion, that's not how you have a dialogue. I've learned lots of things in my life from people with different opinions who could present them intelligently and respectfully. Let's just say that is not how our resident BWI trolls operate.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I would agree with point 1. Doesn't mean he was infallible, but he wasn't a "football first over morality" guy.
I would actually agree with point 2 as well. Jerry's guilt (proven in a court of law) or innocence doesn't prove or disprove that any of these guys did what they should have.
Disagree with point three on the premise that the worst that can be said is that they were fooled by Jerry. If they (Curley and Schultz, specifically) called police or protective services this whole thing is a different story.
I pretty much agree with point four. Joe's role here was to pass the information on to those who were responsible for handling it. It was not his place to hold their hands to do what needed to be done. And they did seem to respond as though there was no report of CSA, but still should have made a report.

Yep, you have to wonder why TC ever felt the need to talk to Jerry after a second accusation in 3 years. Right or wrong....something in his gut must have said...well that is pretty odd...a second time and this time it is one of our employees saying something odd occurred. Maybe he does clarify this one day, but you're dead on about them being fooled by Jerry as everyone was. Clemente put him in the top 1% for a reason. That sick SOB took out so many kids and other people with his sick needs.

 

[Mixolydian]

That is what happens when you have a 1 year old that won't sleep after a round of shots on Friday. So once again you make another bad assumption and really should look in the mirror when handing out advice. Then again all you really do is lob grenades and never say anything...you let others do the heavy lifting and yell from the outside. It kind of speaks volumes really. What's the matter mix, you don't like me telling steve Jerry is guilty? If you don't have a problem with me saying that, then STFU already.

I didn't make any assumption about why you were up at 3:38 am, just commented that you were posting on this board then. I hope your child feels better today.

As to my posting history, I have laid out in detail my views on many aspects of the scandal and have never once commented on you telling Steve or anyone that you think Jerry is guilty. My interest has always been on the BS surrounding MM and PSU's involvement in this fiasco. You can look it up. Like I said, try to keep track of who you are arguing with.

Barring a new trial or new evidence, I actually share your view about Sandusky and have said so. I also don't have a problem with Steve or others who share his view. He has civilly pointed out in detail why he feels the way he does, and I have no problem with that. I have learned far more about this overall case from him than I ever have from you and Jive combined.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I didn't make any assumption about why you were up at 3:38 am, just commented that you were posting on this board then. I hope your child feels better today.

As to my posting history, I have laid out in detail my views on many aspects of the scandal and have never once commented on you telling Steve or anyone that you think Jerry is guilty. My interest has always been on the BS surrounding MM and PSU's involvement in this fiasco. You can look it up. Like I said, try to keep track of who you are arguing with.

Barring a new trial or new evidence, I actually share your view about Sandusky and have said so. I also don't have a problem with Steve or others who share his view. He has civilly pointed out in detail why he feels the way he does, and I have no problem with that.

Funny thing is I have said numerous times those guys were collateral damage due to the media outrage. Yes, CSS absolutely made mistakes IMO, but I was never convinced it was malicious. I don't understand some of their decisions as they have yet to be explained. So in the future when piling on, maybe you too should track who you are arguing with. I do have an issue with the victim shamers as that is pretty disgusting to me, but that is JMO on the matter.

Thanks for your well wishes on my child BTW. She'll be fine, but those shots and a little cold has her up all night and my wife happened to break her foot last week so I'm it. Fun times...oh and I'm moving next week as well.

 

[Mixolydian]

Funny thing is I have said numerous times those guys were collateral damage due to the media outrage. Yes, CSS absolutely made mistakes IMO, but I was never convinced it was malicious. I don't understand some of their decisions as they have yet to be explained. So in the future when piling on, maybe you too should track who you are arguing with too.

Interesting because this whole recent exchange started with you taking issue with a poster who took issue with another poster who used the word "villainy" in connection to JVP.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I think that's an important point you make lajolla. I can't understand some of their decisions and have still yet to to hear from them, really. Not in an in-depth way at least.
I can't figure out why they did so much around the issue and just never bothered to make a report to protective services. Clearly, they had feelings that something wasn't quite right. Why they didn't just take that final step is the biggest question I would like to have answered.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

Interesting because this whole recent exchange started with you taking issue with a poster who took issue with another poster who used the word "villainy" in connection to JVP.

jive has a much harder imo of Joe's role than I do and he always has. He doesn't attack me similar to you not attacking steve so...I think you can see something similar there.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

I think that's an important point you make lajolla. I can't understand some of their decisions and have still yet to to hear from them, really. Not in an in-depth way at least.
I can't figure out why they did so much around the issue and just never bothered to make a report to protective services. Clearly, they had feelings that something wasn't quite right. Why they didn't just take that final step is the biggest question I would like to have answered.

The thing I come back to is Tim's comments about going to Jerry first. Of course we know that was the wrong move now, nobody will dispute that...well most won't anyway. The thing is you have to wonder what kind of slick talking Jerry may have done to clear Tim's head at that time. For Jerry to do what he was doing for so long he knew exactly what cards to play IMO and how to read people.

 

[Bob78]

here's where most people get a little turned sideways, so it is important to note:

you can say they SHOULD have reported this to the police all day, and it is a debatable point. but the bottom line is that not only were they NOT REQUIRED BY LAW to report it to the police, they reported it to someone who was LEGALLY OBLIGATED to report to state agencies.

and THAT person testified against Spanier. sick, right?

Not only is that bizarre wrt Raykovitz, there are a whole lot of people who seem to be well aware of what went on that talk very matter-of-factly that Harmon knew about '01. The sickness spreads exponentially if that is true.

Putting myself in their shoes.... if Raykovitz (and Harmon?) tell me not to worry about this, and I don't have the training or experience to know the sometimes invisible red flags, and in my entire life I've gone to the trusted experts to get their opinions and input on things I'm not as well-versed in, I'm thinking I need to defer here, especially with something with as much gray in it as the report I received from the eye witness.

 

[LundyPSU]

The thing I come back to is Tim's comments about going to Jerry first. Of course we know that was the wrong move now, nobody will dispute that...well most won't anyway. The thing is you have to wonder what kind of slick talking Jerry may have done to clear Tim's head at that time. For Jerry to do what he was doing for so long he knew exactly what cards to play IMO and how to read people.

And what did Tim do when Jerry initially denied being in Lasch that night.

 

[WeR0206]

Why they didn't just take that final step is the biggest question I would like to have answered.

Why didnt MM, JM, and Dr D take stronger action the very night of the incident??

Maybe because all the folks MM spoke to didn't know who the kid was and MM didn't really see anything he could verify?

Taking the report to the folks at TSM who were 1000x more qualified to handle it and legally required to make any reports makes sense when the report is vague and riddled with assumptions.

Also you can't ignore the bias the 98 incident produced. The admins were told by the state that JS bear hugs from behind in the shower were no big deal.