Death Threat to PSU Beta Members

[BlueBand]

But what about the girls who tripped him up (assuming this happened)? Shouldn't they have gotten help? Or, are they excused because it wasn't "their" house, even though they did the tripping? And, why does the guy who admitted that he knew that Piazza needed help get a free pass for not calling 911? Is he excused because someone else told him not to? Is that an actual excuse that you can use in a real courtroom?

What if Piazza himself said that he didn't need 911 after he fell?

The girls... as you said, if that happened. I can't tell you why they weren't charged. Maybe it didn't happen. Maybe he tripped over them, they checked on him with some of the brothers and they left the party because the brothers said they'd take care of him.

I suspect the guy who "knew" is cooperating and probably has a deal with the prosecutors. Pretty standard.

Piazza was in no condition to assess his injuries, based on his BAC. And did he say that, if he did at all, after the first or second time he fell? Even if he said that initially, when his condition deteriorated, what then? When should the bells have gone off that he needed help?

We can go back and forth on this, but there's no point. Let's wait for more information. That said, I personally don't think it looks good for them. I'm hung up on discussions/texts that he needed help being ignored until it was too late. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.

 

[LafayetteBear]

. In their fraternity house, a pledge fell down the stairs twice.

He did? And you know this how?

 

[no1lion99]

There is a lynch mob mentality in this country that is getting worse. Many people hear a 30 second sound bite, make a judgment as to guilt or innocence, and move on, carrying their conclusions with them and passing them on to others. It is appalling and it is out of control.

Well I read an 80+ page GJR, and then followed multiple reporters tweet/write about the video and the text messages exchanged (all shown at the hearing). From that I can tell that multiple brothers at minimum violated both the legal statute as written in PA (providing alcohol to a minor) and Beta policy, along with that of the IFC as well.

Is it possible all of this evidence is faked? I guess maybe a 0.00000000001% chance exists of such a crime, but I am willing to ignore such a small number. Are they guilty of IM? I am not enough of a lawyer to know the details of case law surrounding this, but they sure look guilty of it from a lay persons perspective.

Now go ahead and call me some kind of SPM apologist, as if I haven't been screaming at the top of my lungs for the last 4-5 years how corrupt she is.

P.S. Why do people keep referring to a specific man? From the initial post this appears to be a general threat against all of the kids in the frat?

 

[fairgambit]

Well I read an 80+ page GJR, and then followed multiple reporters tweet/write about the video and the text messages exchanged (all shown at the hearing). From that I can tell that multiple brothers at minimum violated both the legal statute as written in PA (providing alcohol to a minor) and Beta policy, along with that of the IFC as well.

Is it possible all of this evidence is faked? I guess maybe a 0.00000000001% chance exists of such a crime, but I am willing to ignore such a small number. Are they guilty of IM? I am not enough of a lawyer to know the details of case law surrounding this, but they sure look guilty of it from a lay persons perspective.

Now go ahead and call me some kind of SPM apologist, as if I haven't been screaming at the top of my lungs for the last 4-5 years how corrupt she is.

P.S. Why do people keep referring to a specific man? From the initial post this appears to be a general threat against all of the kids in the frat?

I don't want to be critical, but you are doing what most of the general public does. You are rushing to judgment ("they sure look guilty") based upon a Grand Jury Report and media tweets. Of course they do. You have primarily seen just the Prosecution's side. I cannot tell you how many times I have viewed evidence in advance of a trial that made a defendant look guilty beyond any doubt, only to have that evidence totally collapse in the face of cross examination, other witnesses, and additional evidence. That is why we have trials in this country. Some, or all, of these men may be found, or plead, guilty, but right now, as a member of the bar for 44 years, I cannot make that determination, and will not, until I have seen, or hear, all of the evidence. If you never watched the 1943 movie "The Ox Bow Incident" please do so. It may give you a different perspective on justice in this country.

 

[BlueBand]

He did? And you know this how?

I thought I read he fell down the stairs twice. If I was mistaken, that was my fault, or it was reported incorrectly. I do see in the hearing reports that he fell multiple times, but maybe only once was down the stairs. I see a report that says "at least" one fall down the stairs.

Ah yes, here it is:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.phil...aternity-charged-Centre-County.html?amphtml=y

Maybe they have it wrong?

 

[Raffycorn]

I thought I read he fell down the stairs twice. If I was mistaken, that was my fault, or it was reported incorrectly. I do see in the hearing reports that he fell multiple times, but maybe only once was down the stairs. I see a report that says "at least" one fall down the stairs.

Ah yes, here it is:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.philly.com/philly/education/Piazza-Penn-State-hazing-Beta-Theta-Pi-fraternity-charged-Centre-County.html?amphtml=y

Maybe they have it wrong?

From the evidence shown so far, he fell down the stairs to the basement once at the party at ~11PM, and then he got up and fell down the same stairs again at some point in the middle of the night/early morning when everyone in the house was asleep. When the brothers woke up in the morning, he wasn't on the couch where they had left him and they ended up finding him at the bottom of the stairs.

 

[bjf1991]

I don't want to be critical, but you are doing what most of the general public does. You are rushing to judgment ("they sure look guilty") based upon a Grand Jury Report and media tweets. Of course they do. You have primarily seen just the Prosecution's side. I cannot tell you how many times I have viewed evidence in advance of a trial that made a defendant look guilty beyond any doubt, only to have that evidence totally collapse in the face of cross examination, other witnesses, and additional evidence. That is why we have trials in this country. Some, or all, of these men may be found, or plead, guilty, but right now, as a member of the bar for 44 years, I cannot make that determination, and will not, until I have seen, or hear, all of the evidence. If you never watched the 1943 movie "The Ox Bow Incident" please do so. It may give you a different perspective on justice in this country.

FWIW - one need not look at fiction to gain a "different perspective" on justice

Unfortunately, one need only open their eyes and engage their "thinker".

FWIW: My choice for an easily-accessible "real" treatment - that is in many ways shockingly reminiscent of much of what has gone on here wrt Sandusky/PSU - I would go with Randall Adams/"Thin Blue Line"

 

[LafayetteBear]

I thought I read he fell down the stairs twice. If I was mistaken, that was my fault, or it was reported incorrectly. I do see in the hearing reports that he fell multiple times, but maybe only once was down the stairs. I see a report that says "at least" one fall down the stairs.

Ah yes, here it is:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.philly.com/philly/education/Piazza-Penn-State-hazing-Beta-Theta-Pi-fraternity-charged-Centre-County.html?amphtml=y

Maybe they have it wrong?

I had forgotten that this particular article mentions two falls down the stairs. Most news reports mention his initial fall on the stairs, and then note that he had several falls in the early morning hours either on the ground floor or outside the front door, but say nothing of stairs. A number of reports are that they found him down in the basement in the morning, but that does not necessarily mean he fell down the stairs again.

Perhaps trial testimony will clarify this point. If reports are true that they had a number of cameras but none in the stairwell to the basement, then video evidence specific to this issue may be unavailable.

 

[BobPSU92]

I don't want to be critical, but you are doing what most of the general public does. You are rushing to judgment ("they sure look guilty") based upon a Grand Jury Report and media tweets. Of course they do. You have primarily seen just the Prosecution's side. I cannot tell you how many times I have viewed evidence in advance of a trial that made a defendant look guilty beyond any doubt, only to have that evidence totally collapse in the face of cross examination, other witnesses, and additional evidence. That is why we have trials in this country. Some, or all, of these men may be found, or plead, guilty, but right now, as a member of the bar for 44 years, I cannot make that determination, and will not, until I have seen, or hear, all of the evidence. If you never watched the 1943 movie "The Ox Bow Incident" please do so. It may give you a different perspective on justice in this country.

You're not helping. There's good OUTRAGE. that needs to be expressed. WE. WILL. BE. OUTRAGED.

 

[Raffycorn]

I had forgotten that this particular article mentions two falls down the stairs. Most news reports mention his initial fall on the stairs, and then note that he had several falls in the early morning hours either on the ground floor or outside the front door, but say nothing of stairs. A number of reports are that they found him down in the basement in the morning, but that does not necessarily mean he fell down the stairs again.

Perhaps trial testimony will clarify this point. If reports are true that they had a number of cameras but none in the stairwell to the basement, then video evidence specific to this issue may be unavailable.

There do not appear to be cameras that directly show the basement stairs. Testimony was able to establish that the 11PM fall occurred without video, there is video shown of him falling several times in the living room in the middle of the night while everyone else is asleep, and there is video of him staggering towards the basement steps early the next morning before anyone else was awake before disappearing from view.

There was testimony that the brothers started to look for him in the morning, and found him in the basement with blood on his face, breathing heavily, eyes half open and cold to the touch. I don't believe, even in the absence of direct video evidence, that it will be difficult to successfully argue the method by which he went down the stairs a second time.

 

[getmyjive11]

There is a reason why the only people charged with involuntary manslaughter are those that either purchased the alcohol or ran the Gauntlet.

 

[swordsman_l]

Yes I did read the law and if you had you would see it is two part law. You simply cannot ignore the recklessly or intentionally endangers someone part of the law. Having a person doing forced calisthenics is not a crime. Having a person doing forced calisthenics that recklessly endangers the person is a crime. I don't know why that is a diffucult concept to grasp. Penn State takes steps to not endanger the players. They are given thorough physicals before participating. A trained medical staff is onsite at every workout. The individuals conducting the workouts are certified in strenght and conditioning. These steps are taken so the school doesn't recklessly endanger the lives of players. That is a huge difference between a pledge master forcing a pledge to do push ups till the puke or senior band members making freshmen run sprints till they can't anymore.

Google "iowa rhabdomyolysis" and get back to me...

 

[katchthis]

So in this type of case with so many defendants, will the prosecutor break it up or try them all at once ? Any advantage to the defense in this case for either approach ?

 

[no1lion99]

I don't want to be critical, but you are doing what most of the general public does. You are rushing to judgment ("they sure look guilty") based upon a Grand Jury Report and media tweets. Of course they do. You have primarily seen just the Prosecution's side. I cannot tell you how many times I have viewed evidence in advance of a trial that made a defendant look guilty beyond any doubt, only to have that evidence totally collapse in the face of cross examination, other witnesses, and additional evidence. That is why we have trials in this country. Some, or all, of these men may be found, or plead, guilty, but right now, as a member of the bar for 44 years, I cannot make that determination, and will not, until I have seen, or hear, all of the evidence. If you never watched the 1943 movie "The Ox Bow Incident" please do so. It may give you a different perspective on justice in this country.

I think there is a distinction here that is important that you miss/exaggerate. Most of the general public on any given issue reads a headline and one or two stories, MAYBE, and forms an opinion. I have done far more than that. I read the detailed evidence, I listened to others who were witnessing events firsthand. That is quite a bit more. It is what a reasonable person who wants to understand the case does. Evaluate the evidence, compare it to the statutes, form an opinion.

Is my opinion 100% solid? Obviously not. I don't have the actual hard evidence at my fingertips, I have reports of what it is. I have testimony from both sides (the authorities and the defense teams/defendants). I have testimony from the police, medical examiners, and a video that was witnessed by quite a few people in a courtroom. I have reports of text conversations. I have read the relevant statutes. I have been at frat parties and seen this type of behavior.

So what I am saying is beyond making this case my life's work the available evidence shows pretty well BARD that at minimum these people provided alcohol to a minor, which is definitely a crime in PA. There is no requirement for intent, or any gray area. The only way that isn't true is if phone records are faked, and multiple witnesses perjured themselves under oath. I am not an expert on faking documents, nor on witness psychology, nor the medical nuance of how his brain injury lead directly to his death. The manslaughter is much more complicated and I am sure involves nuanced case law. To me it fits the general description in the statutes, but I realize that is not the only consideration.

I am not on the jury, I am in no way required to be held to such a standard. The law assumes you are innocent until proven guilty. I don't have that responsibility unless I am sitting on a jury. Since this will bei n Centre county I won't ever be on that jury and thus am perfectly free to form an opinion about it.

EDIT: I would note that I can't recall any of the defendants denying the bulk of the factual accusations against them; i.e. that alcohol was provided to TP, that the "gauntlet" was organized and run, and that multiple brothers participated in it. What i see is a "well how were we supposed to know he was dying as opposed to just really drunk" as a defense.