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fc no more pre game prayers??? I've never been a big fan of this

Michael.Felli said:
Too funny. That your kind can only do good if its for a God. You even go as far as creating a make believe bad guy (aka The Devil and hell) just to coerce people to do good. You know, the angel that tried to overthrow God. War in a make believe Heaven. Now, that's rich!
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No Michael, you have it wrong again. You can only do good because of God. You couldn't even decide to be born. So any good you do is either an accident or it's because god gave you that ability. It must be one or the other. There's no in between on that.
 
Michael.Felli said:
Such the zealot, you are. If we listened to your leader, aka Jesus, he who has not sinned, can throw the first stone.

Then...No one could ever serve on a Jury, or sentence a man to prison or go to war.

So much for the (ahem) wisdom of your God, huh?!?
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Look up the word "context." It seems you've never heard of that word.
 
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
Well, since ancient Jews practiced POLY theism, this commandment makes sense. You have tribal leaders making this clear once and for all. No longer open for debate
  1. You shall not make idols.
Simply an extension to Commandment Number One. Ancient Jews had idols
  1. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
WOW! Such an authoritarian God worried that people take his name in vain
  1. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Well, should we work EVERY day? No. Not according to ancient tribal leaders. You can have ONE day off from work. We still debate this today. Should we work 40 hours? Should we change that to 50 hours. Ancient man had to work 6 days and spend their only day off in the Temple worshipping. Some life, eh?
  1. Honor your father and your mother.
What if they're nuts? Then what? Cute commandment. Just another way to tell kids "DO WHAT YOUR PARENTS TELL YOU!"
  1. You shall not murder.
Now this is just rich! How the hell does one declare war? This means the United States was WRONG declaring war on the Japs and Nazis.
  1. You shall not commit adultery.
How else to keep your neighbor from fvcking your wife, make a commandment. And, the penalty for the woman who commits adultry? Death by stoning. Funny. The commandment just before this was "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER". Yet, Jews were breaking that commandment to enforce this commandment. Makes sense, right?!? And, if your husband is an abusive SOB, well...too fvckin bad! You stay married!
  1. You shall not steal.
Well, we can all agree on this, right? What about the poor? What about a mother with hungry kids whose parents are dead and husband died? What if she steals food for her kids? Ancient Jews didn't have food stamps.
  1. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Well, we can all agree on this, right? Probably the ONLY one that makes ANY sense. Tell the truth.
  1. You shall not covet.
Unless you are part of Capitalism, then it's o'k. Because we all know SOCIALISM doesn't work!


Now, since I'm smarter than Abraham, Moses and Jesus, combined, I will give you MY 10 Commandments:

Michael Felli's 10 Commandments.....

1. One human can never own another human

2. People of today have a responsibility to future generations

3. Do not abuse people with disabilities: organic and/or psychological

4. Do not abuse children

5. All humans are equal

6. Humans deserve adequate food, shelter and healthcare

7. Education must never be denied to any human

8. Any human can do whatever he or she pleases as long as they do not harm others or the environment

9. All humans have not only the right to live but, also, the right to die

10. All humans have the right to "due process"

 
LionJim said:
Sure. How do you know they're not already doing that? Praying is not something that is always readily apparent. How many times does a guy sitting on the bench pray that his teammate make his crucial free throw? You see football players on the sidelines holding hands, some kneeling, while the guy lines up for the winning field goal. Are they praying? Probably more than a few. That's the thing about praying, you can do it anytime you want, anywhere you want. I can't vouch for Jewish or Moslem customs, but Christians don't have to get on their knees to pray. At any rate, Matthew 6.5 seems to say, don't pray in a way that people will know you're praying. "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men."
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I agree with Matthew's teaching regarding prayer. I personally believe those that find they must pray publicly are doing so to bring attention to themselves and not Christ/God.
 
Michael.Felli said:
Too funny. That your kind can only do good if its for a God. You even go as far as creating a make believe bad guy (aka The Devil and hell) just to coerce people to do good. You know, the angel that tried to overthrow God. War in a make believe Heaven. Now, that's rich!
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He could pick a real bad guy, like Stalin, who was secular. As are the leaders of Cuba and North Korea.
 
Michael.Felli said:
  1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
Well, since ancient Jews practiced POLY theism, this commandment makes sense. You have tribal leaders making this clear once and for all. No longer open for debate
  1. You shall not make idols.
Simply an extension to Commandment Number One. Ancient Jews had idols
  1. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
WOW! Such an authoritarian God worried that people take his name in vain
  1. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Well, should we work EVERY day? No. Not according to ancient tribal leaders. You can have ONE day off from work. We still debate this today. Should we work 40 hours? Should we change that to 50 hours. Ancient man had to work 6 days and spend their only day off in the Temple worshipping. Some life, eh?
  1. Honor your father and your mother.
What if they're nuts? Then what? Cute commandment. Just another way to tell kids "DO WHAT YOUR PARENTS TELL YOU!"
  1. You shall not murder.
Now this is just rich! How the hell does one declare war? This means the United States was WRONG declaring war on the Japs and Nazis.
  1. You shall not commit adultery.
How else to keep your neighbor from fvcking your wife, make a commandment. And, the penalty for the woman who commits adultry? Death by stoning. Funny. The commandment just before this was "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER". Yet, Jews were breaking that commandment to enforce this commandment. Makes sense, right?!? And, if your husband is an abusive SOB, well...too fvckin bad! You stay married!
  1. You shall not steal.
Well, we can all agree on this, right? What about the poor? What about a mother with hungry kids whose parents are dead and husband died? What if she steals food for her kids? Ancient Jews didn't have food stamps.
  1. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Well, we can all agree on this, right? Probably the ONLY one that makes ANY sense. Tell the truth.
  1. You shall not covet.
Unless you are part of Capitalism, then it's o'k. Because we all know SOCIALISM doesn't work!


Now, since I'm smarter than Abraham, Moses and Jesus, combined, I will give you MY 10 Commandments:

Michael Felli's 10 Commandments.....

1. One human can never own another human

2. People of today have a responsibility to future generations

3. Do not abuse people with disabilities: organic and/or psychological

4. Do not abuse children

5. All humans are equal

6. Humans deserve adequate food, shelter and healthcare

7. Education must never be denied to any human

8. Any human can do whatever he or she pleases as long as they do not harm others or the environment

9. All humans have not only the right to live but, also, the right to die

10. All humans have the right to "due process"

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Your commandments fail without a demand people be enslaved to provide them to you. For instance, are you gonna force someone to educate you, provide your healthcare, without compensation?

You also got the Ten Commandments wrong. It is thou shall not murder, not thou shall not kill.
 
JR4PSU said:
I agree with Matthew's teaching regarding prayer. I personally believe those that find they must pray publicly are doing so to bring attention to themselves and not Christ/God.
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If you agreed with Matthew then why pass judgement (lest ye be judged) on their motivation?

His teaching was about ones own conduct, using it to call out someone else's conduct wasn't the intent.
 
bmw199 said:
One of my favorite pre game scenes is when our guys run down to the North End Zone and bend down and say a prayer before the game. I loved it when I was a kid and to this day still makes me proud to see 80-90% of team do this.
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I agree.. I'm not necessarily a religious person, but I find the scene to be one of the best pre-game moments. Its respectful and you see something that appears personal to the players. And I'm sure even the most non-religious Penn State fan has found themselves praying to something during the 4 overtime game vs Michigan or before Ficken was lining up for game tying or game winning fgs the past couple seasons. Seriously, this is a non-issue except for those that want to be offended by something.
 
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psugisher said:
I agree.. I'm not necessarily a religious person, but I find the scene to be one of the best pre-game moments. Its respectful and you see something that appears personal to the players. And I'm sure even the most non-religious Penn State fan has found themselves praying to something during the 4 overtime game vs Michigan or before Ficken was lining up for game tying or game winning fgs the past couple seasons. Seriously, this is a non-issue except for those that want to be offended by something.
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but that is not a forced pregame tradition...individuals can pray however they want on the field but why does a coach need to lead it and leave others who don't believe in that religion in a no win situation...that is why I like the players doing it themselves in a corner of an end zone or a the player prayer circles after the game which is led by the student athletes
 
cronk said:
but that is not a forced pregame tradition...individuals can pray however they want on the field but why does a coach need to lead it and leave others who don't believe in that religion in a no win situation...that is why I like the players doing it themselves in a corner of an end zone or a the player prayer circles after the game which is led by the student athletes
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Maybe so, but I guaran---dam---ty you that some nimrod will then say you can't pray on University property.
 
Howie'81 said:
Maybe so, but I guaran---dam---ty you that some nimrod will then say you can't pray on University property.
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the Constitution and Supreme Court have time after time protected individuals rights to pray when and where they choose as long as it does not impede on others rights
 
cronk said:
but that is not a forced pregame tradition...individuals can pray however they want on the field but why does a coach need to lead it and leave others who don't believe in that religion in a no win situation...that is why I like the players doing it themselves in a corner of an end zone or a the player prayer circles after the game which is led by the student athletes
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I guess I don't see a no-win situation. If the coach leads and players are present that aren't interested in the prayer, they can be silent and respectful for a whole 30 seconds and go on with the rest of their preparation for the game. Are there any players that have actually complained about this? An anti-religious group with a clear agenda is the source of the complaint in this instance. In this instance, this is an issue only for those that want to make it one.
 
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psugisher said:
I players are present that aren't interested in the prayer, they can be silent and respectful for a whole 30 seconds Are there any players that have actually complained about this? .
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maybe the players that aren't interested in lifting weights can take a pass as well. Guys who play for a Dabo Sweeney, or Emory Hale, etc know better than to bring this up, especially if their goal is to play football in a game.
 
What a bizarre thread.

Many atheists (at least the loud ones) have become extraordinarily arrogant and thin skinned. Apparently they fear turning into pillars of salt at the mere mention of God or religion...or maybe they fear that their lack of belief will be easily shaken if someone says "bless you" after a sneeze. As I believe someone pointed out pages ago, the Constitution does not guarantee freedom from religion. Decades of bad court rulings by liberal judges have turned the 1st Amendment on its head.

Atheists would likely label many religious people as arrogant in their beliefs (and that is often a fair characterization). It's equally arrogant to assert, with certainty, that one knows there is no afterlife, supreme being, creator, etc....and that anyone who believes otherwise is a moron, cave man, troglodyte, hopeless optimist, loony, etc. I have a lot more respect for agnostics.

Lighten up, Francis. (not Pope Francis...don't want to offend anybody)
 
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sluggo72 said:
maybe the players that aren't interested in lifting weights can take a pass as well. Guys who play for a Dabo Sweeney, or Emory Hale, etc know better than to bring this up, especially if their goal is to play football in a game.
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Guys who commit there have also visited and talked to the players so they have an idea of what to expect. They can also ask for a transfer if they are so offended if they somehow were caught off guard. People try to make issues where some simply don't exist.
 
True, Lajolla. I fear the whiner/easily offended percentage has soared past 50% in this country, which is likely the point of no return.
 
psugisher said:
I agree.. I'm not necessarily a religious person, but I find the scene to be one of the best pre-game moments. Its respectful and you see something that appears personal to the players. And I'm sure even the most non-religious Penn State fan has found themselves praying to something during the 4 overtime game vs Michigan or before Ficken was lining up for game tying or game winning fgs the past couple seasons. Seriously, this is a non-issue except for those that want to be offended by something.
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That's fine but, what if a player wants to run down to the endzone and show off his cool dance moves or hold his hands up supporting a police protest or stand in the Superman pose for 30 seconds or flash some gang signs or act like he's smacking that ass.
 
psugisher said:
I guess I don't see a no-win situation. If the coach leads and players are present that aren't interested in the prayer, they can be silent and respectful for a whole 30 seconds and go on with the rest of their preparation for the game. Are there any players that have actually complained about this? An anti-religious group with a clear agenda is the source of the complaint in this instance. In this instance, this is an issue only for those that want to make it one.
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And if one of the players wants to pray to allah, should the rest of the team stand around silently waiting for the player to finish?
 
LaJolla Lion said:
Guys who commit there have also visited and talked to the players so they have an idea of what to expect. They can also ask for a transfer if they are so offended if they somehow were caught off guard. People try to make issues where some simply don't exist.
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so when Emory Hale or somebody takes over at Austin Peay or where ever , and calls you, the starting safety for the last 2 yrs,a pretty good player, plus you choose Austin Peay because you could play there and be Pre Med., and he looks you in the eyes and says, 'Son I only want players who Jesus Christ is their Savior, and is Jesus Christ your Savior?' and the player says, Well Coach I am religionists as the next guy, I don't really go to church much when I am here, I do when I go home. And the Coach says, "son that aint good enough to play at Austin Peay, you either are committed to Christ or your are not, now which is?'

So now what? You transfer? You go down to the river and get dunked so you can play? What does this have to do with football away??
 
sluggo72 said:
so when Emory Hale or somebody takes over at Austin Peay or where ever , and calls you, the starting safety for the last 2 yrs,a pretty good player, plus you choose Austin Peay because you could play there and be Pre Med., and he looks you in the eyes and says, 'Son I only want players who Jesus Christ is their Savior, and is Jesus Christ your Savior?' and the player says, Well Coach I am religionists as the next guy, I don't really go to church much when I am here, I do when I go home. And the Coach says, "son that aint good enough to play at Austin Peay, you either are committed to Christ or your are not, now which is?'

So now what? You transfer? You go down to the river and get dunked so you can play? What does this have to do with football away??
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Yes you transfer if you are so offended or you simply handle it like an adult. By that I mean you tell the coach you respectfully decline to do this, but you are ready to play football. I get that you are looking for some huge stupid battle in this, but it's not that hard to figure out unless you are one of the idiots for the far left or right that wants to get stirred up over such non issues. If you don't want to pray or it offends you so much, don't do it. Just STFU and be respectful of those that do. If you can't, it's probably because that person is an a-hole(not you sluggo). It's not so hard to figure out and reasonable adults can work through this. Only idiots get wrapped up in such stupid crap like this.
 
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sluggo72 said:
so when Emory Hale or somebody takes over at Austin Peay or where ever , and calls you, the starting safety for the last 2 yrs,a pretty good player, plus you choose Austin Peay because you could play there and be Pre Med., and he looks you in the eyes and says, 'Son I only want players who Jesus Christ is their Savior, and is Jesus Christ your Savior?' and the player says, Well Coach I am religionists as the next guy, I don't really go to church much when I am here, I do when I go home. And the Coach says, "son that aint good enough to play at Austin Peay, you either are committed to Christ or your are not, now which is?'

So now what? You transfer? You go down to the river and get dunked so you can play? What does this have to do with football away??
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I really want to let this die but your straw man arguments are out of control
 
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lein said:
Your commandments fail without a demand people be enslaved to provide them to you. For instance, are you gonna force someone to educate you, provide your healthcare, without compensation?

You also got the Ten Commandments wrong. It is thou shall not murder, not thou shall not kill.
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Oh, thanks for the tip. If a woman commits adultry, stoning her to death is what, then?
 
psugisher said:
I guess I don't see a no-win situation. If the coach leads and players are present that aren't interested in the prayer, they can be silent and respectful for a whole 30 seconds and go on with the rest of their preparation for the game. Are there any players that have actually complained about this? An anti-religious group with a clear agenda is the source of the complaint in this instance. In this instance, this is an issue only for those that want to make it one.
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Ding, ding, ding!!!! We have a winner!
 
lein said:
If you agreed with Matthew then why pass judgement (lest ye be judged) on their motivation?

His teaching was about ones own conduct, using it to call out someone else's conduct wasn't the intent.
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Who have I judged?
 
sluggo72 said:
I am not sure what you mean, but I'm not making this stuff up. Happens all the time.
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A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument.

You're contorting what we're supporting. No one advocating for prayer has said a coach has the right to ask a player if Christ is his savior or convince him or sit him if he doesn't change his mind. I agree that would be wrong. But a coach leading a prayer for the safety of players shouldn't be objectionable either.
 
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bmw199 said:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on false representation of an opponent's argument.

You're contorting what we're supporting. No one advocating for prayer has said a coach has the right to ask a player if Christ is his savior or convince him or sit him if he doesn't change his mind. I agree that would be wrong. But a coach leading a prayer for the safety of players shouldn't be objectionable either.
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A coach is an authority figure and is the boss on the team. The HC is the overall boss but any coach is the boss of a player. Having a coach lead a prayer forces players that don't want to do it to either do it against their will or else not do it and be put in a position of not being a good team member.
 
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Op2 said:
A coach is an authority figure and is the boss on the team. The HC is the overall boss but any coach is the boss of a player. Having a coach lead a prayer forces players that don't want to do it to either do it against their will or else not do it and be put in a position of not being a good team member.
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I think this falls under the definition of straw man as well.
 
wow, I am just having trouble seeing how you can force a 19 year old to pray to a God he doesn't believe in or tell him to shut up and sit over there because he doesn't believe in the same God as his coach, why should anyone be forced to be put into that situation??? Shouldn't the coaches be the bigger men and not put his wards into that situation?
 
Howie'81 said:
LJ, if you've been paying attention to this thread, you see quickly that Michael is anything but rational.
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I will say one thing: because you can't prove anything here, it all goes down to a question of faith. Some people here have promoted a proof for existence/nonexistence; I'm not going to go there, I'm nowhere close to that, I never give this any thought. Faith works perfectly well for me, no reason it shouldn't, and, to make it clear, reason doesn't leave just because faith has entered the room.
 
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