fc no more pre game prayers??? I've never been a big fan of this

[lein]

So if your son's high school coach was an atheist, and before every game he asked everyone to gather around and said this

....you and the other Christian parents would have zero problem with that, right? The Christian kids can sit quietly and reflect or watch the grass or something, right?

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
-- G K Chesterton

 

[Howie'81]

no on is inflicting anything on you with their praying

Agree, and it's interesting how many people would like to inflict THEIR way of life on a Christian. That doesn't seem to bother them.

 

[Judge Smails]

Does that mean the NCAA should use the bible as a supplemental rule book?

I tend to be a live and let live guy. Seeing someone or a group pray doesn't bother me any more than seeing one or many not participate in a prayer.

The so-called educated and enlightened class needs to realize our country was not founded as a secular nation.

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--John Adams

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

-- Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document. Not one time.

As with the Constitution, at no time is a god ever mentioned in the Federalist Papers. At no time is Christianity every mentioned. Religion is only discussed in the context of keeping matters of faith separate from concerns of governance, and of keeping religion free from government interference.

The founding fathers could not be clearer on this point: God has no role in government; Christianity has no role in government. They make this point explicitly, repeatedly, in multiple founding documents. We are not a Christian nation.

Our national obsession with God in politics is actually a recent phenomenon and would seem completely alien to any of our founders. "In God We Trust" was first placed on United States coins in 1861, during the Civil War. (More about that in a bit.) Teddy Roosevelt tried to remove the words from our money in 1907 but was shouted down. Only in 1956 was that expression adopted as the national motto by the 84th Congress. The clause "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was inserted only in 1954, when President Eisenhower signed legislation to recognize "the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." But conservatives, ignorant of our history, or willfully ignoring it, wish us to believe that the pledge always referenced God.

 

[Howie'81]

Jefferson was wrong. It's 2000 years and counting and belief in Christ and the virgin birth is still going strong.

 

[Michael.Felli]

Unfortunately, your line of reasoning doesn't hold a drop of water. Monotheism didn't "evolve." Monotheism came about largely due to the Jewish people's experience of God. Later the Greeks proved WITH LOGIC that there cannot be many gods. They deduced USING LOGIC that there is and only can be one god. I'll also add that God's existence is entirely independent of how many people believe it or not. So if 99% of the population would come to think that belief in a deity is "silly," then that simply means that 99% of the people might end up with egg on their face.

You using "logic"?!? And you think Im comical.

Maybe you should read "The God Delusion".

 

[Michael.Felli]

Jefferson was wrong. It's 2000 years and counting and belief in Christ and the virgin birth is still going strong.

Not for long, pal.

 

[Howie'81]

You using "logic"?!? And you think Im comical.

Maybe you should read "The God Delusion".

I'm not into falsehoods. The book I recommended to you quotes from The God Delusion and thoroughly debunks the arguments.

 

[Howie'81]

Not for long, pal.

Oh yes Michael, it will be. Like forever.

 

[bmw199]

Actually Michael, if future generations are as rational and logical as you expect they will be, they will no doubt believe in the existence of god. I recommend reading "Who Designed the Designer" by Michael Augros. Recently published and replete with logic.

St. Francis wrote about this concept also

 

[nits74]

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--John Adams

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

-- Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document. Not one time.

As with the Constitution, at no time is a god ever mentioned in the Federalist Papers. At no time is Christianity every mentioned. Religion is only discussed in the context of keeping matters of faith separate from concerns of governance, and of keeping religion free from government interference.

The founding fathers could not be clearer on this point: God has no role in government; Christianity has no role in government. They make this point explicitly, repeatedly, in multiple founding documents. We are not a Christian nation.

Our national obsession with God in politics is actually a recent phenomenon and would seem completely alien to any of our founders. "In God We Trust" was first placed on United States coins in 1861, during the Civil War. (More about that in a bit.) Teddy Roosevelt tried to remove the words from our money in 1907 but was shouted down. Only in 1956 was that expression adopted as the national motto by the 84th Congress. The clause "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was inserted only in 1954, when President Eisenhower signed legislation to recognize "the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." But conservatives, ignorant of our history, or willfully ignoring it, wish us to believe that the pledge always referenced God.

Yes, indeed. Good post.

 

[cronk]

organized prayer should not be a part of public school, it is that simple...individuals can pray whenever they want but to have an adult leading those prayers should not be tolerated. if players want to go to the corner of the end zone and pray together before the game, I am 100% for that. Orange County Public Schools here in Florida decided to enforce that last year and got lots of heat at the start but after that, people realized that it was a thing that made sense, many teams like Apopka's football team had students lead the prayer circle before and after the game while the coaches stayed off to the side...they won the state title so guess God was alright with this compromise

BTW love that quote from someone earlier who said God only answers 50% of athlete prayers every week anyways LOL

 

[cronk]

Jefferson was wrong. It's 2000 years and counting and belief in Christ and the virgin birth is still going strong.

by what measure do you consider it going strong?

 

[cronk]

Agree, and it's interesting how many people would like to inflict THEIR way of life on a Christian. That doesn't seem to bother them.

yes, Christians need to have their rights protected, certainly an oppressed group

 

[Obliviax]

organized prayer should not be a part of public school, it is that simple...individuals can pray whenever they want but to have an adult leading those prayers should not be tolerated. if players want to go to the corner of the end zone and pray together before the game, I am 100% for that. Orange County Public Schools here in Florida decided to enforce that last year and got lots of heat at the start but after that, people realized that it was a thing that made sense, many teams like Apopka's football team had students lead the prayer circle before and after the game while the coaches stayed off to the side...they won the state title so guess God was alright with this compromise

BTW love that quote from someone earlier who said God only answers 50% of athlete prayers every week anyways LOL

Totally wrong....athletes don't pray "to win". This is so fundamental it shows the complete lack of understanding of prayer. And, as such, a complete lack of understanding of religion.

When you learn something common back and we can have a meaningful conversation about the subject. (BTW, i am not FOR forced or school organized prayer)

 

[sluggo72]

if we get back to prayer and football, I once heard Frank Broyles say, ' God is on the side of the team with the two best tackles!"

 

[bmw199]

Pray on your own time. No reason to inflict it on everyone.

I cant speak for any potential children I may (hope to) or may not have but if my high school coach did this I and the other Christian players on the team would have invited any members of the team or coaching staff to either gather before or after and pray for our and the other teams safety while competing that day.

It's not praying to win; it's praying for safety when you are strapping up 20 lbs of plastic and running full boar at the opponent who is running full boar at you. An average of 12 HS football players die a year from injuries sustained while playing (doesn't include non lethal life changing injuries). I intend to encourage my kids to play the game, because I loved it, but I will pray for them and I will encourage them to pray for themselves and their opponents also before every contest.

If they follow my advice I would also advise them pray with their teammates who choose to pray also. that's the crux of this its not mandatory to pray, you can opt out whether the coach leads it or a spiritual player leads it.

 

[cronk]

Totally wrong....athletes don't pray "to win". This is so fundamental it shows the complete lack of understanding of prayer. And, as such, a complete lack of understanding of religion.

When you learn something common back and we can have a meaningful conversation about the subject. (BTW, i am not FOR forced or school organized prayer)

so when a player after the game THANKS GOD for the win today which you see every day, they weren't praying to win before hand? if not, then why are they thanking god for the victory? you never see the losers THANK GOD for their loss that day

 

[Howie'81]

by what measure do you consider it going strong?

By the millions of believers in the world. If you only want to count those that are juridically Catholic, it's more than a billion, maybe 2 or more billion. But I realize not all of them practice. But even if only 10% practiced the faith, that's still a lot of souls.

 

[Obliviax]

so when a player after the game THANKS GOD for the win today which you see every day, they weren't praying to win before hand? if not, then why are they thanking god for the victory? you never see the losers THANK GOD for their loss that day

Again....you aren't hearing things correctly. They thank God for the opportunity and the ability. Its no different than thanking God for winning the lottery, health, a great family or whatever other good fortune you may be provided. I am sure you can pull up the exceptions from some place, but 99% of the time, that's what they are thanking God for.

I am shocked that you, of all people on this board, don't get this. I don't have a problem with people enforcing the division between church and state (and the constitutional protections to worship in any form one chooses) but these false statements are over the top. (BTW, teams pray after losses all the time. Most often, they leave the field ASAP for several reasons....and pray after the game for the opportunity, health of the players and their blessings. Ever really listen to the Lord's prayer?)

 

[Obliviax]

The vast majority of team prayers are The Lord's Prayer. Perhaps people don't know the words:

Give us this day, our daily bread (pray for existence, ability to sustain)
And forgive us our trespasses (our indiscretions)
As we forgive those, who trespass against us (forgiveness for those who have offended or hurt us)
And lead us not, into temptation (give us the strength to be good people)
but deliver us from evil (keep us safe)

That's not the entire thing...but I don't see where it says "God, please help us win and screw the other team"...do you see that?

This is the prayer used in the vast majority of cases becuase it is the staple prayer, suggested by Jesus in the New Testament and the foundation of all Christian religions.

 

[psuro]

Looking forward to the first HC that says "Time to celebrate Festivus".

 

[sluggo72]

The vast majority of team prayers are The Lord's Prayer. Perhaps people don't know the words:

Give us this day, our daily bread (pray for existence, ability to sustain)
And forgive us our trespasses (our indiscretions)
As we forgive those, who trespass against us (forgiveness for those who have offended or hurt us)
And lead us not, into temptation (give us the strength to be good people)
but deliver us from evil (keep us safe)

That's not the entire thing...but I don't see where it says "God, please help us win and screw the other team"...do you see that?

This is the prayer used in the vast majority of cases becuase it is the staple prayer, suggested by Jesus in the New Testament and the foundation of all Christian religions.

And that's my point, not everyone on a FB team believes in this. So why bring it up?? Why ostracize someone from the team??

Team captain comes up and askes, 'Coach why cant we say the Lord's prayer as a team in the locker room before the game?'
Coach says, 'What about your best friend Matt?? He's Jewish, right? Why do you want to exclude him from a team activity?'
Player, 'Cant Matt just wait in the shower stall?"
Coach, 'Ok what about Kevin?? He's Hindu or something? What should he do? If you want to pray by your locker, that's fine, but as team, and as coach, no one should be excluded'
Player, ' I understand, I don't want to hurt Matt or Kevin, I was just thinking'
Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

 

[Michael.Felli]

1) Christians (and other so called faiths), can't even agree among themselves. How comical is that?!?

2) That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens Razor

What's hilarious, if there truly is a God, he would've told Moses that one human being can't own another human being; that all humans deserve water, food and shelter; that all humans deserve due process. But, he didn't. He did make it clear that he's the one and only though. lol.

The most comical thing of all, is people here who think they can set up a government based on religion. Name one nation in all of history that did that well. Name just one.

 

[bmw199]

And that's my point, not everyone on a FB team believes in this. So why bring it up?? Why ostracize someone from the team??

Team captain comes up and askes, 'Coach why cant we say the Lord's prayer as a team in the locker room before the game?'
Coach says, 'What about your best friend Matt?? He's Jewish, right? Why do you want to exclude him from a team activity?'
Player, 'Cant Matt just wait in the shower stall?"
Coach, 'Ok what about Kevin?? He's Hindu or something? What should he do? If you want to pray by your locker, that's fine, but as team, and as coach, no one should be excluded'
Player, ' I understand, I don't want to hurt Matt or Kevin, I was just thinking'
Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

You don't get why the religious want to pray before putting their life on the line. Or a religious coach wants to pray before sending his kids out to...? It's not about ostracizing anyone. It's about what those people believe will keep them safe. If you don't believe then don't be involved. These aren't mandatory if they were Dabo Swinney would be sued so fast.

You saying it has no place is a ridiculous as Howie or I saying everyone must believe.

 

[Obliviax]

well if it's truly 24/7, they should expand the play clock, tough to get a play called and prayer prayed in 40 seconds!!!

it's the Jews and the Muslims I worry about, because the FCA guys spend all day trying to convert them!!! Ask Debo!

Well, there is a freedom of religion issue here. While I ag

And that's my point, not everyone on a FB team believes in this. So why bring it up?? Why ostracize someone from the team??

Team captain comes up and askes, 'Coach why cant we say the Lord's prayer as a team in the locker room before the game?'
Coach says, 'What about your best friend Matt?? He's Jewish, right? Why do you want to exclude him from a team activity?'
Player, 'Cant Matt just wait in the shower stall?"
Coach, 'Ok what about Kevin?? He's Hindu or something? What should he do? If you want to pray by your locker, that's fine, but as team, and as coach, no one should be excluded'
Player, ' I understand, I don't want to hurt Matt or Kevin, I was just thinking'
Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

So what if they can't get 100% agreement on team captain? On if to kick or receive? As I stated, I am not for forced prayer but if a player or a group of players wants to pray, that's great.

 

[Howie'81]

And that's my point, not everyone on a FB team believes in this. So why bring it up?? Why ostracize someone from the team??

Team captain comes up and askes, 'Coach why cant we say the Lord's prayer as a team in the locker room before the game?'
Coach says, 'What about your best friend Matt?? He's Jewish, right? Why do you want to exclude him from a team activity?'
Player, 'Cant Matt just wait in the shower stall?"
Coach, 'Ok what about Kevin?? He's Hindu or something? What should he do? If you want to pray by your locker, that's fine, but as team, and as coach, no one should be excluded'
Player, ' I understand, I don't want to hurt Matt or Kevin, I was just thinking'
Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

What would a Jew or atheist find offensive in that prayer? Jews believe in the same God as Christians and pretty much all the tenets of the Lord's Prayer. And an atheist, if he's intellectually consistent, shouldn't give a pig's ear about it one way or the other. But what some atheists really want is to proselytize Christians to unbelief. Let's call it what it is.

 

[Obliviax]

1) Christians (and other so called faiths), can't even agree among themselves. How comical is that?!?

2) That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens Razor

What's hilarious, if there truly is a God, he would've told Moses that one human being can't own another human being; that all humans deserve water, food and shelter; that all humans deserve due process. But, he didn't. He did make it clear that he's the one and only though. lol.

The most comical thing of all, is people here who think they can set up a government based on religion. Name one nation in all of history that did that well. Name just one.

What is funny to me is how you want to force your views on everyone else. How is that any different?

 

[bmw199]

Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

I missed this last part and it goes to my whole point of why this is a football issue and not a basketball issue. Because playing this game involves putting your life on the line.

 

[Howie'81]

1) Christians (and other so called faiths), can't even agree among themselves. How comical is that?!?

2) That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence - Hitchens Razor

What's hilarious, if there truly is a God, he would've told Moses that one human being can't own another human being; that all humans deserve water, food and shelter; that all humans deserve due process. But, he didn't. He did make it clear that he's the one and only though. lol.

The most comical thing of all, is people here who think they can set up a government based on religion. Name one nation in all of history that did that well. Name just one.

1) Hitler made war on Stalin (both practical atheists). How comical is that? You don't think great thoughts, do you Michael?

2) Hitchen's Razor. Now that really is funny. Because he makes a specious statement like that, it's true? Either you or Hitchen's (who's dead I realize) need to provide a proof for that statement first of all, and you better well define what you mean by evidence, because there is PLENTY of evidence both by reason and by sight for the existence of God. How foolish you are.

 

[Howie'81]

What is funny to me is how you want to force your views on everyone else. How is that any different?

It's not. He's a hypocrite. And his observations are quite flimsy.

 

[Obliviax]

And that's my point, not everyone on a FB team believes in this. So why bring it up?? Why ostracize someone from the team??

Team captain comes up and askes, 'Coach why cant we say the Lord's prayer as a team in the locker room before the game?'
Coach says, 'What about your best friend Matt?? He's Jewish, right? Why do you want to exclude him from a team activity?'
Player, 'Cant Matt just wait in the shower stall?"
Coach, 'Ok what about Kevin?? He's Hindu or something? What should he do? If you want to pray by your locker, that's fine, but as team, and as coach, no one should be excluded'
Player, ' I understand, I don't want to hurt Matt or Kevin, I was just thinking'
Coach, 'How about we just go play?'
Player 'Ok"

yeah...well....didn't seem to hurt the Ismail brothers at ND. There is room for individuality within a team sport. In fact, that is the true value of team sports....learning how to be an individual within the constraints of a team sport.

Honestly, anyone who would ostracize a player for his religious beliefs (or lack thereof) isn't going to do very well in today's environment (again, not in a Catholic/private school). Most team players are sensitive to the fact that each individual believes and motivates differently. Some people love pressure, some shrink. Some want to be underdogs, some want to be favorites.

In my mind, you are the one being small minded. Let people do what people do.

 

[lein]

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--John Adams

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

-- Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams

We are not now, nor have we ever been, a Christian nation. Our founding fathers explicitly and clearly excluded any reference to "God" or "the Almighty" or any euphemism for a higher power in the Constitution. Not one time is the word "god" mentioned in our founding document. Not one time.

As with the Constitution, at no time is a god ever mentioned in the Federalist Papers. At no time is Christianity every mentioned. Religion is only discussed in the context of keeping matters of faith separate from concerns of governance, and of keeping religion free from government interference.

The founding fathers could not be clearer on this point: God has no role in government; Christianity has no role in government. They make this point explicitly, repeatedly, in multiple founding documents. We are not a Christian nation.

Our national obsession with God in politics is actually a recent phenomenon and would seem completely alien to any of our founders. "In God We Trust" was first placed on United States coins in 1861, during the Civil War. (More about that in a bit.) Teddy Roosevelt tried to remove the words from our money in 1907 but was shouted down. Only in 1956 was that expression adopted as the national motto by the 84th Congress. The clause "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was inserted only in 1954, when President Eisenhower signed legislation to recognize "the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." But conservatives, ignorant of our history, or willfully ignoring it, wish us to believe that the pledge always referenced God.

My statement still stands. Our nation was founded as a free country, not a secular country. At the founding, States were free to establish/maintain their own State religion well after ratifying the Constitution.

BTW - our founding fathers, including Jefferson, attended church services held in the capital building.

 

[Obliviax]

My statement still stands. Our nation was founded as a free country, not a secular country. At the founding, States were free to establish/maintain their own State religion well after ratifying the Constitution.

BTW - our founding fathers, including Jefferson, attended church services held in the capital building.

I feel like everyone is entitled to believe what they want. However, I'd like to share a story with you. I had the opportunity to tour the Kremlin museum in Moscow with a private tour guide. The guide said that Stalin converted all of the Russian Orthodox churches into stalls once he took over except for one small church (for public consumption). He was very anti-religion as we all know. One night, when the Nazis were within 50 miles of the city, the Bishop heard a noise. It was Stalin. Stalin asked the Bishop to teach him how to pray. But he swore the Bishop to secrecy. The Bishop only told the story on the death bed (either his or Stalin's, can't remember which).

as my father once told me "if you live long enough, one day, you will find religion". Stalin, one of the worst people in modern world history, found religion that day for whatever purpose. I am not saying his prayers were answered, but he became desperate enough to find religion.

 

[Howie'81]

Never heard that story about Stalin, but I can believe it. Kind of like that old saw, "There are no atheists in foxholes."

 

[sluggo72]

What would a Jew or atheist find offensive in that prayer? Jews believe in the same God as Christians and pretty much all the tenets of the Lord's Prayer. And an atheist, if he's intellectually consistent, shouldn't give a pig's ear about it one way or the other. But what some atheists really want is to proselytize Christians to unbelief. Let's call it what it is.

Short answer - you can substitute AA for FB.
Question:
For years, we have been closing Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with the Lord’s Prayer, as do many other groups. We sometimes have Jewish people attending, and I had been taught this was a universal prayer. Lately, by request, we have begun to consider closing with something else. What do you think?

Answer:
Shalom,

It’s true that the Lord’s Prayer fits equally across all the Abrahamic traditions. It is similar in many ways to prayers that were popular among pious Jews in Roman times, including the kaddish prayer, and reflects traditional Jewish values. You may wish to read more on this in the relevant article in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

Nevertheless, Jews do not say this prayer. If a Jew attends an AA meeting where it is recited, he does not have to leave, but he should not recite it along with them. The reason is easy to understand: Its source is what is called “The New Testament.” The existence of the Jewish people is predicated on an eternal pact G‑d made with Abraham, and later with his descendants at Mount Sinai. A “New Testament” implies that this pact was somehow annulled. By reciting a prayer from a context that undermines the existential foundation of his people, a Jew feels that he is surrendering his unique identity to the ideology of the majority culture. It seems to me that this runs contrary to the aims and goals of AA, which looks to strengthen each member’s identity as a unique individual, with his own meaning and purpose in life.

Many AA groups and other 12-step societies have a practice of saying the 23rd Psalm, “The L‑rd is my shepherd . . .” The Psalms are revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims, and this one in particular relates closely to the theme of AA.

 

[Obliviax]

Short answer - you can substitute AA for FB.
Question:
For years, we have been closing Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with the Lord’s Prayer, as do many other groups. We sometimes have Jewish people attending, and I had been taught this was a universal prayer. Lately, by request, we have begun to consider closing with something else. What do you think?

Answer:
Shalom,

It’s true that the Lord’s Prayer fits equally across all the Abrahamic traditions. It is similar in many ways to prayers that were popular among pious Jews in Roman times, including the kaddish prayer, and reflects traditional Jewish values. You may wish to read more on this in the relevant article in the Jewish Encyclopedia.

Nevertheless, Jews do not say this prayer. If a Jew attends an AA meeting where it is recited, he does not have to leave, but he should not recite it along with them. The reason is easy to understand: Its source is what is called “The New Testament.” The existence of the Jewish people is predicated on an eternal pact G‑d made with Abraham, and later with his descendants at Mount Sinai. A “New Testament” implies that this pact was somehow annulled. By reciting a prayer from a context that undermines the existential foundation of his people, a Jew feels that he is surrendering his unique identity to the ideology of the majority culture. It seems to me that this runs contrary to the aims and goals of AA, which looks to strengthen each member’s identity as a unique individual, with his own meaning and purpose in life.

Many AA groups and other 12-step societies have a practice of saying the 23rd Psalm, “The L‑rd is my shepherd . . .” The Psalms are revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims, and this one in particular relates closely to the theme of AA.

That's right...the lord's pray (our father) is in the new testament and given by Jesus whom is not aligned with the Jewish religion. However, the lord's prayer is not to Jesus, but to "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven." As such, it is not an affront to those who do not believe in Jesus.

 

[sluggo72]

You don't get why the religious want to pray before putting their life on the line. Or a religious coach wants to pray before sending his kids out to...? It's not about ostracizing anyone. It's about what those people believe will keep them safe. If you don't believe then don't be involved. These aren't mandatory if they were Dabo Swinney would be sued so fast.

You saying it has no place is a ridiculous as Howie or I saying everyone must believe.

I understand why religious people want to pray before a game, and everything I have said, if they want to do that as individuals, be my guest. Now when it becomes a group, organized activity, that's when I have a problem. So when Dabo gathers the team around before/after a game and tells his team to get down on 1 knee and gives thanks, that isn't mandatory?? The HFC just gave you an order, and those players know the consequences if they don't follow the HFC orders , otherwise they just go turn the music on.

 

[sluggo72]

yeah...well....didn't seem to hurt the Ismail brothers at ND. .

first) only 1 Ismail attended ND, and 2) , 'Ismail has been described as a "devout Christian'

 

[Michael.Felli]

What is funny to me is how you want to force your views on everyone else. How is that any different?

I'm educating. You're indoctrinating. Big big difference

 

[sluggo72]

That's right...the lord's pray (our father) is in the new testament and given by Jesus whom is not aligned with the Jewish religion. However, the lord's prayer is not to Jesus, but to "Our Father, Who Art in Heaven." As such, it is not an affront to those who do not believe in Jesus.

that's not how most Jewish people feel