Flo's P4P

[KidNittany]

Link

What strikes me the most - by the end of next year you could have six potential 3-time NCAA Champs (and a four-timer). WOW

 

[Pennstate1985]

meh. A thousand people will have a thousand different opinions on this. All depends on what emphasis you put on each performance criteria.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Link

What strikes me the most - by the end of next year you could have six potential 3-time NCAA Champs (and a four-timer). WOW

Am I the only one that thinks this will be Martinez's toughest year to repeat?

 

[PSU Mike]

Can't take the list seriously without Marinelli in light of his triumphs over Mike Evans and Sammy Brooks every day, and twice on Saturday.

I kid, Hawk fans (about the Saturday part, at least.).

 

[El-Jefe]

I'll take the cover boy.

 

[nitlion6]

Am I the only one that thinks this will be Martinez's toughest year to repeat?

So you think IMAR is going to have 2 NCAA matches tougher than the Miller-Nolf 2 step?

 

[FineMaterial]

Sorenson Over Nickal?

 

[KidNittany]

Sorenson Over Nickal?

Futurama refs = points gained

Nickal >> Sorenson. Sorry not sorry

 

[JOESTROSSER]

I'd go Retherford over Snyder since he'll wrestle a full season, barring injury.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

So you think IMAR is going to have 2 NCAA matches tougher than the Miller-Nolf 2 step?

I don't sleep on Daniel Lewis and Isaac Jordan is no slouch himself

 

[ev_flores0331]

Futurama refs = points gained

Nickal >> Sorenson. Sorry not sorry

To be fair, each kid lost only once, right? If we're nitpicking then Sorensen lost only to Retherford while Nickal lost to a true freshman.

 

[edquinn06]

To be fair, each kid lost only once, right? If we're nitpicking then Sorensen lost only to Retherford while Nickal lost to a true freshman.

He also lost to Jackson.

 

[nitlion6]

I don't sleep on Daniel Lewis and Isaac Jordan is no slouch himself

Two quality kids. I just do not see Lewis or Jordan pushing IMar anywhere near as far as Miller or Nolf did. Without cutting weight to the degree he did to get to 157 I see IMAR being every bit the horse Dieringer was, but even more athletic.

 

[horraybeer]

To be fair, each kid lost only once, right? If we're nitpicking then Sorensen lost only to Retherford while Nickal lost to a true freshman.

Both lost twice. Sorensen got majored in one loss and Bo had more bonus and better wins.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Both lost twice. Sorensen got majored in one loss and Bo had more bonus and better wins.

You are right about last year. But as redshirt freshman, Bo had a much better year than Sorenson. Hence Bo > Sorenson

 

[tikk10]

I think there's also something to the perception that Bo beat himself twice more so than getting beat, whereas Sorensen lost to Zain and then got dominated by Zain. Bo pinned Martin two weeks before losing to him, and in a similar match fell just short in coming back from an early mistake against Nate Jackson. I'd take Bo again against both those guys in rematches but pretty certain Sorensen is going to lose to Zain.

 

[Grass]

The scary thing about Zain is that he is bigger this year than he was last year. Last year he looked on the smaller side of 149.

 

[ev_flores0331]

Another way to look at it would be that Sorenson lost twice to arguably the best wrestler in the nation, while Nickal lost to a true freshman and also to guy that's isn't on the p4p list.

But I can see how both sides make valid points.

 

[horraybeer]

Another way to look at it would be that Sorenson lost twice to arguably the best wrestler in the nation, while Nickal lost to a true freshman and also to guy that's isn't on the p4p list.

But I can see how both sides make valid points.

Bo beat both guys, and was 3-1 against the 174 Champ

 

[ev_flores0331]

Or we could simply say Bo lost to two guys while Sorensen lost only to the best guy in the nation.

But I won't argue much against your point of view, lol

 

[goethe14]

It depends how much you value bonus points. Quite simply Sorensen needs to do a lot better in that category. I don't even think it's close from a team perspective who benefited his team more when they finished with basically the same amount of losses and 2nd place at NCAAs.

 

[SRATH]

The scary thing about Zain is that he is bigger this year than he was last year. Last year he looked on the smaller side of 149.

It was hard to see how Zain stacked up against the other guys when you can only see body parts sticking out from under Zain.

 

[El-Jefe]

It was hard to see how Zain stacked up against the other guys when you can only see body parts sticking out from under Zain.

Pretty easy to see everyone else stacked up under Zain, so to speak.

 

[1stplacehawk]

It depends how much you value bonus points. Quite simply Sorensen needs to do a lot better in that category. I don't even think it's close from a team perspective who benefited his team more when they finished with basically the same amount of losses and 2nd place at NCAAs.

I believe Nickal scored 1 more point at NCAAs last year

 

[PSU Mike]

I believe Nickal scored 1 more point at NCAAs last year

That sounds about right. He didn't bonus as much as many of us expected. Actually I thought he looked tired in the 3rd period on a few occasions, but gutted through it. Maybe 184 will be the answer for him.

 

[goethe14]

I believe Nickal scored 1 more point at NCAAs last year

I was speaking of the whole year. I didnt't know p4p was just for the NCAA's.

Edit... did a little fact checking. Bo bonused his opponents 65 percent of time
Sorensen 45 percent.

It's not even close.

 

[PSU Mike]

I was speaking of the whole year. I didnt't know p4p was just for the NCAA's.

Edit... did a little fact checking. Bo bonused his opponents 65 percent of time
Sorensen 45 percent.

It's not even close.

I have 1stplace's back here - your post sure closed as NCAA-centric IMO.

 

[goethe14]

I have 1stplace's back here - your post sure closed as NCAA-centric IMO.

My originsl.post pointed out they both had two losses and finished 2nd at NCAA. Basically saying they had exact records however the large difference was bonus points. How could it be NCAA centric if only one of the losses occurred in the finals?

 

[greenmanRD]

The only thing that puzzles me about these rankings is that Bo is behind Myles Martin on the 184 list but ahead of him in the P4P list. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

The only thing that puzzles me about these rankings is that Bo is behind Myles Martin on the 184 list but ahead of him in the P4P list. That doesn't make sense to me.

My educated guess:
the weight class rankings are based on results. While Bo bested Myles most of their matches last season, in their last match, the NCAA final, Myles bested Bo. Since that's the most recent result, Myles gets ranked ahead of Bo.

Flo has stated before that while weight class rankings are results based, the P4P is more of an opinion. So Bo being ahead of Myles is a reflection of Vais/CP's opinion of how they'd do against any opponent.

 

[greenmanRD]

I guess I don't really see the difference in why someone would differentiate between the two. If your opinion is X guy is better than Y guy P4P, then why wouldn't he be better in class rankings as well? It made sense to have Myles end last year #1 overall at 174 since he won the National Title.

But this is a new season, as important as the title is, you have to look at the H2H and Bo won that battle last year. It's perfectly justifiable to have Bo ahead of Myles P4P, but it seems weird to me to say, "I think this guy is better P4P but he's not better in this weight class they both moved up too because he lost in the national final to him."

That's my only gripe, but this might just be a philosophical difference on P4P.

 

[El-Jefe]

I guess I don't really see the difference in why someone would differentiate between the two. If your opinion is X guy is better than Y guy P4P, then why wouldn't he be better in class rankings as well? It made sense to have Myles end last year #1 overall at 174 since he won the National Title.

But this is a new season, as important as the title is, you have to look at the H2H and Bo won that battle last year. It's perfectly justifiable to have Bo ahead of Myles P4P, but it seems weird to me to say, "I think this guy is better P4P but he's not better in this weight class they both moved up too because he lost in the national final to him."

That's my only gripe, but this might just be a philosophical difference on P4P.

Rankings = who earned what spot. Not same as who's better. Both CP and Willie tend to do who's better for PFP.

 

[greenmanRD]

Maybe instead of using phrases like "that doesn't make sense to me," I should choose my words more carefully. I get why someone ranks that way but it just seems a bit bizarre to me to say "X guy is better P4P but not at 184." It's a matter of disagreement as to how rankings should be.

 

[tomsc]

My educated guess:
the weight class rankings are based on results. While Bo bested Myles most of their matches last season, in their last match, the NCAA final, Myles bested Bo. Since that's the most recent result, Myles gets ranked ahead of Bo.

Flo has stated before that while weight class rankings are results based, the P4P is more of an opinion. So Bo being ahead of Myles is a reflection of Vais/CP's opinion of how they'd do against any opponent.

I also think that P4P includes a dominance factor that rankings don't necessarily include (i.e. falls/bonus point wins), along the lines of a Hodge winner criteria. Kellen Russell was a great wrestler from a ranking viewpoint, but he often didn't win in dominating fashion.

 

[ev_flores0331]

A good point raised by a commenter on Flo: "A guy who beats tough opponents is better than someone who dominates regular opponents"

Sounds like a "Dake v Taylor" argument.

; )

 

[dunkej01]

A good point raised by a commenter on Flo: "A guy who beats tough opponents is better than someone who dominates regular opponents"

Sounds like a "Dake v Taylor" argument.

; )

I think there is something to that. There is a tortoise somewhere smiling.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

Dake >Taylor p4p. Taylor>Dake growing the sport. DT gets a bad rap for not beating Dake, but he deserves much credit for entertainment value. Nolf has this too. The sport needs these types to thrive to improve our audience and help our sport survive. It would be interesting to make a top 10 watchable list. PSU has three guys in the top 5 imo. right now. I have a feeling Joseph may be a top ten type in this also. Ian Miller was great to watch and never won a title. Metcalf was a treat for me, and so is Gilman. Q was a blast.

 

[ev_flores0331]

Yeah, I'd pay to see Ian Miller vs Nolf, but only if it was a two-period match, lol

No disrespect meant to Miller, he was phenomenal. He was thisclose to knocking off IMar in their semifinal and I thought he was a tougher matchup.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

All watchable team.
125- gilman
133-Eierman
141-Ashnault
149-Zain
157-Nolf
165-Imar
174-Crutchmer
184-Bo
197-Weigel?
285-Snyder

Fun to watch and one heck of a team. Way off topic but interesting to me at least. Would love to hear some views from you guys.

 

[diggerpup]

J'Den Cox beat VT Haught, 2-0.

Sorry. I doubt anyone beats J'Den this year, but a bunch of 2-0 wins isn't going to get him the Hodge.

And if Kyle Snyder bypasses a bunch of matches this year, he shouldn't be considered for the Hodge either.