Some of the Iowa folks over the past couple years have expressed some concerns over the PSU kids are too jacked!
Hall is gonna be pissed
- Thread starter Big Blue12
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Laughable. Zain still smaller looking than Sorensen, Panteleo and many others. Our current big 3 generally look leaner than their opponents as well.
As excuses are running out, new ones pop up.
This size discussion is so bizarre.
Frank Molinaro was shorter than most Jockeys.
Frank Molinaro was shorter than most Jockeys.
It's not the size of something, rather how you use it. My wife's been very reassuring in this area.
Nico Megaludis may have been "smaller" than many HS 126s. He also won the national title last year (in the same field as the guy who deadlifts 2 elephants), was a 3x finalist, 4x AA, never finished lower than 3rd. 2x University Freestyle national champ. Nobody ever said "Nico looks small, therefore I bet he's quicker and more flexible."
Nobody ever cowered in fear of David Taylor's hulking physique, either.
I'd much rather our guys not be cutting like maniacs before the NCAAs - glad a few look "undersized".
to ignore a very obvious size difference would be a tactical mistake that I'm certain Cael, Mark and crew are not ignoring. He clearly has the talent to overcome this and has already shown the blueprint against Crutch but to completely dismiss it as a factor???
For example, a paperback can be just as useful as a coffee table book.
Round and round we go. And without mentioning "size", as I'm in the camp that believes it ends up sounding like an excuse...more important is hydration, and nutrition...AFTER WEIGH-INS. Forget how a wrestler looks, size-wise...those sucking weight the most will suffer the most (performance-wise) if they have bouts close to weigh-ins. Just not enough time.
I continued to be amazed by this inane conversation.
During my wrestling and coaching days I personally experienced and coached kids to account for differences in physique that are sometimes rather dramatic. Mark Hall is no different.
Losing to Meyer and the sky is falling. Wow. Hall was and is a better wrestler and this will bear out WHEN it matters.
Has anyone noticed that JG is small no matter what weight class he's in? Well he's not but every time he lost at 141 AND 133 people kept saying he was.
Heck, I continue to scoff at the Kyle Dake 4 different weight classes as some sort of feat. It is not. Every wrestler has dealt with wrestling up, growing, wrestling both trees AND trunks. Mark Hall is not outsized.
If you really think he is and it's a big ass problem.....
Remind me about Kyle Snyder.
Oh, right.....5'11" and 225-235 depending on the day. Yes....that's exactly the size of his opponents.
During my wrestling and coaching days I personally experienced and coached kids to account for differences in physique that are sometimes rather dramatic. Mark Hall is no different.
Losing to Meyer and the sky is falling. Wow. Hall was and is a better wrestler and this will bear out WHEN it matters.
Has anyone noticed that JG is small no matter what weight class he's in? Well he's not but every time he lost at 141 AND 133 people kept saying he was.
Heck, I continue to scoff at the Kyle Dake 4 different weight classes as some sort of feat. It is not. Every wrestler has dealt with wrestling up, growing, wrestling both trees AND trunks. Mark Hall is not outsized.
If you really think he is and it's a big ass problem.....
Remind me about Kyle Snyder.
Oh, right.....5'11" and 225-235 depending on the day. Yes....that's exactly the size of his opponents.
I'm still of the opinion that nolf has an ability to process oxygen into his blood differently than normal humans. He just never seems to wear down, loose his breath , and his ability to continue for long stretches in 5th gear makes me think this.
That and I stayed in a holiday inn last night.
I feel the same way, though I'm neither a doctor nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn, so take this post with a grain of salt..
2 data points. When I was a younger man, I ran a little track. Distance was a killer (I was a sprinter). Coach mentioned how some folks just have better oxygen exchange and recovery...sounded good to me. Second data point is a 12 year old son of a friend. He's ranked nationally in the mile, and being studied for physiological differences between him and others.
And yet, no one else has ever accomplished it. Unless you just mean wrestling at four different weight classes.
Good point, Jammenz. Still, I feel bad that Jefe has to do so much work around here. Could you help a guy out and change your sig to:
"Jammenz: shut up" -- Willie Saylor, Jan 6, 2017
(all in good fun!)
Not differently, just better/more effeciently. It's called VO2max, and it has to do with how much oxygen-rich blood your heart can deliver, along with how efficiently your muscles can use the oxygen. Everyone is born with a certain amount and can improve it, but I think everyone is probably limited to a maximum amount of improvement.
The best way to improve it is interval training at 95-110% of your current VO2 max. In other words, for a wrestler, wrestling hard for 4-5 minutes, brief rest, repeat several times.
This is a huge topic of conversation in the distance running world, with training programs designed specifically around it. A runner improves it by interval training at a pace 20-30 seconds faster than their current 5K race pace.
I'm sure most wrestler's VO2 max are very high, but I'll also bet Jason's is probably even higher.
Good point, Jammenz. Still, I feel bad that Jefe has to do so much work around here. Could you help a guy out and change your sig to:
"Jammenz: shut up" -- Willie Saylor, Jan 6, 2017
Jammen could cut out the middle man, couldn't he?
Not challenging, just inquiring. I was under the impression that the tourneys actually benefit the guys pulling more weight, cuz 1) there is an allowance from day-to-day, and 2) the weigh ins are early compared to the competition time for most wrestlers depending on when they are going... am I confused?
Those are true. The counter argument is that guys who pull a lot of weight re-inflate themselves right after weigh-ins. But they can't do that at tourneys (until after the final weigh-in) because they still have to make weight. So their energy level suffers, especially after the first match of each day.
And once they get into consolations, where you have to wrestle twice as many matches with less rest between, it only gets worse.
I'm not claiming I was anywhere near the caliber of wrestler that Nolf is, but I did push myself so hard that I could keep going non-stop for a long time. As an experiment, I asked the trainer to clock me on a half mile on an indoor track. I never ran track in my life, but I did a half mile in just a few seconds over two minutes on sheer wrestling conditioning. I'm pretty sure it was because I had driven my VO2max to the highest possible level that I could achieve.
In HS? If so, that is pretty impressive. I was a track runner and 2:07 and change was my best time for 880 and that was outdoors. Not that I was any good or anything but I was certainly better than average.
We had a kid from PO wrestling a really good kid from BEA. District finals I said to the PO kid on his way to the mat do not take your foot of off the pedal. PO kid 10 BEA 2 and as he came off the mat he said, I never stopped.
Next week in sub-regionals the BEA kid kept grabbing the PO kid's wrists. Slowed him down tremendously and tightened the score. In the Regional finals the BEA kid won by a point.
The Iowa kid did a great job slowing Hall down, both with his shots and finishes. Hall simply needs to increase the pace, plus finish a little cleaner.
As far as out sized. 174 pounds, weighed in 1 hour prior to beginning of competition. Unless someone is arguing that Hall only weighs something in the 160s, both kids were of very similar size. Shaped differently, but size was approximately even.
Next week in sub-regionals the BEA kid kept grabbing the PO kid's wrists. Slowed him down tremendously and tightened the score. In the Regional finals the BEA kid won by a point.
The Iowa kid did a great job slowing Hall down, both with his shots and finishes. Hall simply needs to increase the pace, plus finish a little cleaner.
As far as out sized. 174 pounds, weighed in 1 hour prior to beginning of competition. Unless someone is arguing that Hall only weighs something in the 160s, both kids were of very similar size. Shaped differently, but size was approximately even.
Not HS. I was 24 when I did that, but I still think it was a good time considering I never trained for track. Granted, I'm tooting my own horn here, but my main point was to illustrate what can happen when your VO2max level is at its peak.
I think a good example of that is IMar last year, who looked vulnerable in eking out wins over Brian Murphy and Ian Miller (at B1Gs and NCAAs respectively) and then back to generational talent against Nolf.
Some top end athletes do have specific physiological characteristics that provide an edge. My apologies as I'm a Luddite and don't know how to add links to articles, but this article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a-plentiful-supply-of-oxygen-to-1458723.html) talks of one Finnish skier/family with such characterstics. It's not wrestling, but relevant to your point. Also, going off memory, I think Secretariat had an unusually large heart.
The title of the article linked above is "Science: A skier with gold medals in his blood: in endurance sports, a plentiful supply of oxygen to the muscles is vital to success. Ruth McKernan on a family blessed by a mutant gene". It's an interesting read.
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Largely Jammenz. KD was going to win 4 titles with all that talent. That's impressive. That he did it at four different classes is a non-factor. He grew. So what. My point is that wrestlers are used to wrestling up a little and Hall being closer to his walking weight and perhaps a little shorter than others in his class is just not the issue being discussed here. Learn adapt and adjust.
But if you want to know something weight related that is actually interesting? John Smith had all of his four titles at the same weight. He didn't grow. Lol.
Hall is what he is, as Molinaro is who he is, as any other wrestler. Adjust. Hall will be sniffing the top of that podium in about 6 weeks time.
And like I said, Snyder is damn small for the class and last I checked, really effing good with guy's 4-6 inches taller and 40-50 more lbs.
Dake helped add another argument against the tired tough guy wrestling weight cutting tradition.
I'd love to see some analytics on weight loss v performance.
fun forum...
Hall does look smaller than some of the kids/men he wrestles. That's not an excuse in any way. Just an observation. They can be different sizes... but they do weigh the same.
Hall does look smaller than some of the kids/men he wrestles. That's not an excuse in any way. Just an observation. They can be different sizes... but they do weigh the same.
Willie still owes me a sig bet from 2-9-14 when he took Alton vs Ness. So I'll accept his if he accepts the one I'll give him.
By far the best condition wrestler I ever saw was Jack Cuvo. Both in high school and in college. He finished 5th in piaa cross country his senior year.The only guy that could beat him in college was Bonomo from Bloomsburg (3 time national champ). Rickey would hit something big early in bout and hang on in the 3rd period.
Here's a good look at the conditioning machines from PSU. I believe tech falls are a pretty good indicator, but then too, with some of the pinning machines we have today, they're not scoring as high on the tech Fall list as they could because they are pinning their guys!
A few outliers on the list, and this is just my opinion, but David Taylor was/is a genetic freak amongst genetic freaks! To be a good college wrestler, you would have to be freaky to start with. To be on a list like this, you are waaay out there on the bell shaped curve.
Also, Ruth may have a lower VO2 max than some of the guys below him as his style was just so very relaxed, then all over it, then relaxed again - said another way, more stop and go, less of a grinder, but man could he score when he wanted to!
Career Technical Fall Leaders
# Name Seasons Career Technical Falls
1 David Taylor 2011-2014 42
2 Jim Martin 1986-1989 27
3 Ed Ruth 2011-2014 25
4 Jeff Prescott 1989-1992 21
5 Brad Pataky 2006-2011 18
6 Nico Megaludis 2012-2016 17
7 Andy Voit 1985-1989 16
8 Ken Chertow 1985-1989 15
8 Jason Nolf 2016-2017 15
10 Jeremy Hunter 1997-2000 12
11 Zain Retherford 2014-2017 11
11 Sanshiro Abe 1993-1996 11
11 Matt Brown 2012-2015 11
14 Cameron Wade 2009-2012 10
14 Jimmy Gulibon 2014-2017 10
16 Frank Molinaro 2009-2012 9
17 Bob Truby 1988-1992 8
17 Dan Mayo 1984-1988 8
17 Marat Tomaev 2001-2004 8
20 Kerry McCoy 1993-1997 7
20 Tim Flynn 1983-1987 7
20 Bo Nickal 2016-2017 7
20 Nate Galloway 2003-2007 7
20 Morgan McIntosh 2012-2016 7
20 Shawn Nelson 1990-1994 7
A few outliers on the list, and this is just my opinion, but David Taylor was/is a genetic freak amongst genetic freaks! To be a good college wrestler, you would have to be freaky to start with. To be on a list like this, you are waaay out there on the bell shaped curve.
Also, Ruth may have a lower VO2 max than some of the guys below him as his style was just so very relaxed, then all over it, then relaxed again - said another way, more stop and go, less of a grinder, but man could he score when he wanted to!
Career Technical Fall Leaders
# Name Seasons Career Technical Falls
1 David Taylor 2011-2014 42
2 Jim Martin 1986-1989 27
3 Ed Ruth 2011-2014 25
4 Jeff Prescott 1989-1992 21
5 Brad Pataky 2006-2011 18
6 Nico Megaludis 2012-2016 17
7 Andy Voit 1985-1989 16
8 Ken Chertow 1985-1989 15
8 Jason Nolf 2016-2017 15
10 Jeremy Hunter 1997-2000 12
11 Zain Retherford 2014-2017 11
11 Sanshiro Abe 1993-1996 11
11 Matt Brown 2012-2015 11
14 Cameron Wade 2009-2012 10
14 Jimmy Gulibon 2014-2017 10
16 Frank Molinaro 2009-2012 9
17 Bob Truby 1988-1992 8
17 Dan Mayo 1984-1988 8
17 Marat Tomaev 2001-2004 8
20 Kerry McCoy 1993-1997 7
20 Tim Flynn 1983-1987 7
20 Bo Nickal 2016-2017 7
20 Nate Galloway 2003-2007 7
20 Morgan McIntosh 2012-2016 7
20 Shawn Nelson 1990-1994 7
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Thanks El Jefe and tikk... that makes sense. I remembered the iMar point in the finals that he had probably put on 10 lbs since weigh ins (same for Deiringer - in his junior year NCAA title bout I recall the announcers saying it), but didnt think through the impact of 3 straight days or weigh in even with the allowance. For NCAAs, that means you have to be careful ballooning up on Thursday afternoon and evening, even if it is your habit to do so after weigh in and before competing, because you dont have 2 days or a whole week to get back down again... appreciate the perspective.
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