Hinkie gone
- Thread starter Nitwit
- Start date
Hard to fathom. Injuries have delayed the rebuilding, but next year is when things are expected to start to kick in. Seems as though Hinkie did all the painful work, but will not be around to enjoy the results.
There have been ongoing rumblings that since Jerry Colangelo was hired as Chairman of Operations, that Hinkie lost a lot of power, including the ultimate decision making authority. Hard to know if these rumblings were true, or just rumors.
It is interesting that ESPN is reporting that Colangelo's son, Bryan, is the favorite to become the new GM. That certainly would be a curious decision.
There have been ongoing rumblings that since Jerry Colangelo was hired as Chairman of Operations, that Hinkie lost a lot of power, including the ultimate decision making authority. Hard to know if these rumblings were true, or just rumors.
It is interesting that ESPN is reporting that Colangelo's son, Bryan, is the favorite to become the new GM. That certainly would be a curious decision.
Assuming the injured guy EVER comes back the 76ers will have 3 centers ???? Clearly Noel and Okefor can't play together. Trade one for a quality forward that can shoot and play some D. I think Okefor will get you more but I would keep Noel. Get some forwards and guards and let Noel play D. I have no hope for Embid.
What stupidity. Makes one long for the days of Katz. And Colangelo makes one wish for Billy King or Doug Collins. I've the same feeling about this move (it was a firing, let's be real) as I did when Moses got dealt or Charles got dealt: part nausea, part anxiety.
I think Hinkie was a disaster. This kind of level of tanking is unprecedented, yet all its got them is three centers with injury problems and a guy in Europe we don't know can play. Plus he seemed to alienate agents and the rest of the league. Oh ya.... I know he got a LOT of cap space, but that can be easily screwed up with a signing like mentioned above. Minnesota seemed to get the better draft talent. All the second round picks too..... who gives a crap.
If they don't get a top two pick this year it'll be disappointing. Lucking into the Lakers pick would be nice. I don't think you can win in the NBA though with a bunch of guys who should still be in college, so someone has to go.
If they don't get a top two pick this year it'll be disappointing. Lucking into the Lakers pick would be nice. I don't think you can win in the NBA though with a bunch of guys who should still be in college, so someone has to go.
bwifan
Well-Known Member
I would be ok if they had hired a GM with a proven record. Colangelo's son has an abysmal record at drafting.... I cannot believe they hired him. Obviously some nepotism at work here. I have zero confidence that Josh Harris knows what he is doing or really cares to tell you the truth. I think once this new practice site is built he puts the team up for sale.... We the Sixers fans have to suffer for another few years with this mess.
the 76ers have had a > 500% record 10 times since 1990-01 season. Hinkie did nothing to "harm the franchise" that many had not before it. This team has pretty much stunk for years due to mismanagement, poor drafting, bad trades, etc.
This is a franchise with a storied history with many great players. Very sad watching them since the Harold Katz days.
This is a franchise with a storied history with many great players. Very sad watching them since the Harold Katz days.
Tom...I don't understand you defense of Hinke. You or I could have done a better job. The Sixers were literally the worst team in the league and an all time historical worst team for the last 3 years and what do they have to show for it.
Nerlens -- an undersized center with very limited offense. A role player at best on a playoff team.
Parker-- looks like a legit frontline starter.
Embid -- hasn't played for two years and will have to move one of the above to allow him to play
Saric -- hasn't played and have no idea what he is.
So 3 years of tanking and what you have to show is essentially one legit frontline player, and a big man coming of two years of foot injury (which name me the last big man that has ever recovered from a foot injury to be a all star player), and a Euro who hasn't set foot in the NBA. Literally, 95% of this board could have done better.
Nerlens -- an undersized center with very limited offense. A role player at best on a playoff team.
Parker-- looks like a legit frontline starter.
Embid -- hasn't played for two years and will have to move one of the above to allow him to play
Saric -- hasn't played and have no idea what he is.
So 3 years of tanking and what you have to show is essentially one legit frontline player, and a big man coming of two years of foot injury (which name me the last big man that has ever recovered from a foot injury to be a all star player), and a Euro who hasn't set foot in the NBA. Literally, 95% of this board could have done better.
I doubt that was the plan (drafting 3 centers in a row). Since only the team with the #1 pick controls what happens, teams do the best they can with the situation they face.
Let's look at those 3 years:
2013:
the Sixers actually picked 11th. They picked a guard, Michael Carter-Williams. During the draft they also traded their best player, guard Jrue Holiday and a 2nd round pick that year (Pierre Jackson) to New Orleans for Nerlens Noel and a 2014 1st round pick. Noel was injured at the time, and expected to miss all or most of the 13-14 season, and he was still picked 6th by New Orleans. Pre-injury, it was predicted that he would go 1 or 2 in the draft
2014:
the Sixers picked 3rd. They got pretty unlucky here. They wanted Andrew Wiggins, and also liked Jabari Parker. Those 2, plus Embiid, were considered the top 3 picks. Alas, Embiid's foot problem was identified shortly before the draft. Cleveland, who picked #1 that year, appeared ready to pick Embiid before the injury was discovered. After that, the Cavs took Wiggins and the Bucks took Parker, so the Sixers took the best remaining player. The Sixers also picked guard Elfrid Payton with the pick they had from New Orleans. They traded the rights to Payton to Orlando, in exchange to the rights for Dario Saric and a 2015 2nd round pick and a future 1st round pick. Saric had signed with a Turkish team, which meant that he would not be able to come to the NBA for 2 years
2015:
the Sixers again picked 3rd. From all reports, they really wanted guard D'Angelo Russell. Unfortunately for them, he was taken by the Lakers with the #2 pick. The Timberwolves had taken Karl-Anthony Towns with the #1 pick, and Towns, Russell, and Okafor were considered the top 3 prospects. With Embiid's rehab from surgery not looking promising, it seemed as though Okafor was a good choice. He had a lot of offense, but was a defensive liability. The hope was that he could play with Noel, and that Nerlens could fill in for Okafor's lack of defense.
After 3 years, it's still unclear if Embiid will be able to play, and it appears that Okafor and Nerlens are not all the happy when playing together, as both prefer C to PF. Not knowing Embiid's status will make it that much harder for them to plan for the coming years.
Hopefully, they'll have more luck in this year's lottery, and will get the #1 pick.
Bingo.
I could have done a similar job and come a lot cheaper. I'm not saying getting worse for a year was a bad idea but to throw five years away.... which is what we are doing with this Hinkie plan...... is a joke. Let's se what happens when they for some reason don't get a top two pick.
This is why the Sixers will be a mediocre team at best for the foreseeable future. There is a lot to criticize about Hinkie no doubt, but this is what you signed up for when you hired him. If you buy into a "tanking" plan, then you need to see it play out. Hiring Colangelo's son would be beyond idiotic. I trust that John Smallwood is dancing for joy.
Cletus,
Study the team that Hinkie inherited. Billy King, Ed Stefanski, and Tony DiLeo (working with Doug Collins) had created an absolute mess. They had traded Iggy and a 1st round pick fro Andrew Bynum. How did that work for them? They had traded away Nikola Vucevic and Marreese Speights (plus a 1st round pick that became Trevor Booker). They had Holiday, Thaddeus Young, and ??? (basically nothing).
Hinkie came in, and decided that if he maximized what they had, they would also be in the middle of the draft, and wouldn't get much better. So, they took a different approach. I hate losing, but I actually agreed with the approach.
See my earlier post about the past 3 drafts. The Sixers got a little unlucky in '14 and '15. I think they did a great job in the '13 draft.
I'm pretty sure Hinkie thought the plan would work a little faster. Embiid's injury, and then his 2nd surgery, delayed the plan. I still think the plan will work, and that next season was likely to be the start of the turnaround. It will be interesting to see what happens now that Hinkie is no longer there.
If they don't get the #1 pick this year or at least the #2 pick, the tank job didn't pay off. I'm not even sure those two guys are total game changers, but they are pretty good. After that I'm not impressed.
Minnesota didn't admittedly all out tank and they are getting better players through the draft.
Well, I they are lucky and Embid can play (he would be fantastic if healthy). maybe keep Noel as a backup and trade Okafor for another position (guard). Actually I think LA made the wrong choice for them with D'Angelo (maybe LA is now willing to trade him (given his play and controversy) for Okafor - they need a center). So, if the 76res get a forward with the 1st pick or 2nd pick (Ingram or Simmons) They would have the core of a good young team. Can Saric play? Is he a forward or guard?
Of course if Embid is done (seems likely) then you have to keep Okafor and trade Noel.
bwifan
Well-Known Member
I agree Tom.... I would have like him to be able to stay and finish the job and rebuild. But I can also see why they started moving him out the door. His downfall was not answering to anyone including giving the press some inkling on what his long term plans were. Where I do have a big problem is Colangelo and bringing his son in .... Colangelo has won nothing in his career as a GM and his son has been dreadful in drafting and picking coaches. This is nepotism at its finest. Obviously the plan all along was for him to bring in his son to run things. They should of fired Hinkie when they brought Colangelo into the fold. I will have a really big problem if they get rid of Brett Brown and bring in D'Antonio as coach.... I have zero faith that Josh Harris has any idea what he is doing and really not sure he even cares. He is looking to hopefully sell this franchise soon to make his millions and be on his way. Hopefully he sells to someone who is passionate about pro basketball.
These kind of comments drive me crazy. You act as though the Wolves are playing to win, made great picks, and are doing so much better than the Sixers.
In Aug. 2014, the Wolves traded their all-star, Kevin Love, to Cleveland. It was actually a 3-team trade with the Wolves, the Cavs, and the Sixers. The Wolves ended up with:
Andrew Wiggins (from the Cavs)
Anthony Bennett (from the Cavs)
Thaddeus Young (from the Sixers)
Wiggins had been the #1 pick in the 2014 draft (and the guy the Sixers really wanted in that draft, where they picked #3, and went with Embiid).
Bennett had been the #1 pick in the 2013 draft.
Despite having two #1 picks on their roster, the Wolves had the worst record in the league in 2014-15 (would you define that as tanking?), and got lucky in the draft lottery and received the #1 pick. They used that to pick Karl-Anthony Towns.
So they had 3 consecutive #1 picks in the draft on their roster.
They also had Kevin Garnett wave his no-trade clause so that Brooklyn could trade him to the Wolves (for Thaddeus Young -- so Kevin Love got them 2 #1 picks in the draft, plus Kevin Garnett).
I should note that the Wolves cut Bennett before the start of this season, so they no longer have 3 consecutive #1 picks in the draft on their roster.
I feel bad for the Sixers and their fans. Nine wins; are you kidding? Embild is a big problem. Waiting on him to see if he can ever contribute is holding the team back. Hinkie had to go, though.
The Warriors are on top now, but they flat out sucked for decades. I will never forget the bad old days of Chris Washburn (now surely pumping gas somewhere), Mota Elliss and his motor scooter, Chris Webbet fighting with Donn Nelson, Latrell Sprewell choking Carlesimo, Joe ("Barely Cares" ) Barry Carroll. Been there, done that, and don't want to go back..
The Warriors are on top now, but they flat out sucked for decades. I will never forget the bad old days of Chris Washburn (now surely pumping gas somewhere), Mota Elliss and his motor scooter, Chris Webbet fighting with Donn Nelson, Latrell Sprewell choking Carlesimo, Joe ("Barely Cares" ) Barry Carroll. Been there, done that, and don't want to go back..
If the 3rd pick ends up being an Allstar, the strategy is a failure? The Knicks fell in last year's draft and everyone thought that was a disaster and how did that turn out?
Minnesota didn't draft Wiggins, they traded Kevin Love to get him. Did Hinkie inherit one player as coveted and valuable as Kevin Love? Uggghhh...not even close.
Sam Hinkie could have come into Philadelphia maxed out the cap and only drafted guys who were healthy when they were drafted and the Sixers could still be the worse team in the league.
Sam Hinkie pissed off the agents who don't care who wins and who gets fired as long as all the teams are using up their cap space.
Sam Hinkie is actually a very intelligent man and understood what some people amazingly don't understand. Unless you had one of a handful of players on this planet over the last 30 years, you weren't going to compete for a championship. Unless you acquire them in the draft, you likely aren't getting them in trades or free agency unless you are a place like LA, Miami, NYC, etc.
There wasn't a single franchise changing player that Hinkie could have acquired with the lousy roster he inherited and any of the very few franchise changing free agents that have left their teams in the last couple years were NEVER coming to Philadelphia.
Jerry Colangelo and his son wouldn't be caught dead in Philadelphia right now if it weren't for the bullet Hinkie took in acquiring all these young players, draft picks, etc.
To build a team that anyone in Philadelphia would care about, and that's not a .500 basketball team that gets eliminated in the first round of the playoffs every year, Hinkie had to keep the Sixers at the top of the draft to find that franchise changing player.
He played the percentages and wasn't given enough time to see it through. You can't build a team around 19 year old players quickly unless they are Lebron James and Lebron was never available in any of Hinkie's drafts.
I agree that Hinkie inherited a disaster. Collins is a horrible GM (when he takes the coaching role he demands GM powers). He was horrible with the Wizards in his complete failure to build a win now team around the last few years of Jordan's career. And was horrible with the Sixers. That doesn't excuse Hinkie's draft.
Yes, the Sixers got unlucky in the lottery. But the drafting of Embid and Saric was just outright horrible stupid. And then trading MCW destined the Sixers to at least 2 more years of complete disaster. You just cannot do that. A good GM would have passed on Embid as big men foot problems are a real issue and they had a center in Noel. So go best player available that played the 2/3/4 position (as already had MCW). And then with the #10 pick, again, get best player available. Then he should have went out and picked up a veteran free agent to be the team leader with all these young guys and went from there.
Yes, the Sixers got unlucky in the lottery. But the drafting of Embid and Saric was just outright horrible stupid. And then trading MCW destined the Sixers to at least 2 more years of complete disaster. You just cannot do that. A good GM would have passed on Embid as big men foot problems are a real issue and they had a center in Noel. So go best player available that played the 2/3/4 position (as already had MCW). And then with the #10 pick, again, get best player available. Then he should have went out and picked up a veteran free agent to be the team leader with all these young guys and went from there.
The Wolves weren't the laughingstock in the league for admittedly tanking, the Sixers are. And I don't care how it happened.........., we all know the Sixers wanted Wiggins, and they didn't get him. Same with Russell, who they didn't get. And if they don't get a top 2 pick this year, same thing happened again.
I'm not sure they have a difference maker on their team yet. Okafor can't play defense. The Sixers can't even tank right. I'd fell like I was in much better shape with Towns and Wiggins quite frankly.
That sounds like a really bad basketball team.
Who would you have taken instead of Embiid? Noah Vonleh? What has he done in the NBA?
Who would you have taken instead of Saric? James Young? Bust. Gary Harris?
You are drafting 19 year old's that are years away from becoming anything so what does it matter if they are riding the bench, playing the developmental league, playing in Europe, or are rehabbing? If Saric was going to play in the NBA right away, he wouldn't have been available.
Embiid had and continues to have way too much upside to pass up. He was well worth the risk.
You didn't give me an example of one single player they could have legitimately picked up. It takes absolutely zero skill or ability to criticize without providing any concrete legitimate alternatives.
Hinkie understood that if he acquired enough picks and drafted enough players that if he only hit TWICE, he a franchise for the future.
BTW: You think Charlotte would have taken Noel despite his injury over Zeller if they could draft all over again? I think so.
What is your point?
Have you ever played Blackjack? Do you understand percentages? Nothing is 100%.
If you have 10 and the dealer is showing a 6, you double down 100% of the time. If you pull a 3 and the dealer doesn't bust, does that mean you are a moron and played the hand wrong?
If I had 20 and doubled down and got an Ace for 21, would that mean I was smart or a total moron that got incredibly lucky?
Hinkie played the percentages and his plan still might work. Unfortunately he is taking the bullet for Colangelo who has more picks, young prospects and more cap space than any GM could want.
Exactly right. I'm not saying they didn't need to purge the roster...... it was average to bad at best. But drafting was bad, and MCW was another stupid move I forgot about. All the talk about all these second round picks is a waste.
Anyone who think Hinkie has done a good job is nuts. We drafted three centers in a row, two of which were injured. An idiot knows a big man with bad feet is a HUGE risk. I don't care if they were the best players on the board. This team could be much further ahead.
Thanks for that analogy. Not sure what your point is either. I'm pretty sure I understand nothing is 100%. Hinkie did nothing special other than dump a bunch of salary. Any of the 1-2 decent players currently on this team is probably mentally shot from all the losing, and I saw no development whatsoever with some of the young guys due to his inability to realize you need at least point guard.
He was the GM for 3 years, not 90. The draft has two rounds and most second round picks never make a NBA roster. There was only so much he could have done to the roster in a 3 year period. Going out and signing marginal free agents just to win another 20 games that isn't going to get you the playoffs is literally like the dumbest thing you can do in the NBA.
Your city still won't have any interest in your product, the media will still kill you, but now instead of drafting at the top of the draft you are drafting at 10 where your chances of picking up a player that can eventually turn around your team are slim.
You said the Sixers can't even tank right? Because Hinkie couldn't control ping pong balls he couldn't tank right?
You don't want me questioning your intelligence but yet you criticize him over the ping pong balls.
Nobody has any patience anymore, that's the problem. Everyone wants a quick fix.
Look at all the people that bash Franklin. " Dear James, we know you inherited a depleted roster that will take years to rebuild and your offensive line situation is worse than a D2 school, but you still stink, win yesterday please."
How many people would have fired Pat Chambers 3 years ago before the recruits started piling in because he lost a CBI game to Sienna.
There is no patience and you can't build anything sustainable hiring and firing all the time. It doesn't work.
I understand the patience thing, and I'm extremely patient with Penn State football and basketball, and really have no problem at all there. But when you are putting a historically embarrassing and bad team on the court, enough is enough.
If you are relying on ping pong balls, you are screwed.... but that's why they tanked, right? Some things really need to work out here in the next year for this "plan" to have legs. I had no faith that Hinkie could draft or attract the right players here after what I've seen.
The best thing Hinkie did was to acquire first round draft picks. It's not fair to judge how the process will work out until you see how those draft picks are used and how those players work out over the next few years. Remember they may have 4 first rounders this year to add to Embid and Saric, and whomever they get when they trade Okafor or Noel.
i liked what Hinkie was putting together with the trades and draft picks. I really felt he was establishing opportunities for the 76ers to have some exciting young players, or at least trade bait for better players. If it was true that no free agents wanted to sign here because of Hinkie, then that is a huge problem that will never disappear, until the GM is out. Now with the younger Colangelo, let's see what happens.
so again, what did Hinkie do that any person on this board could not do? Get rid of everybody takes no talent. And of all the draft picks after 3 years of being the worst team in modern history they have one decent player from it in Parker. For those saying what could I have done better. I say to you, how could I have done worse.
Parker doesn't even play for the Sixers genius.
You seriously have zero clue what you are talking about. Like, zero.
The trades he completed to get back draft picks that were squandered by the previous regime and his ability to accumulate more picks without giving up anything and you think you could have done his job?
He got Nik Stauskas (8th pick overall) after this rookie a year and the ability to swap first round picks with the Kings this year and next year for Arturas Gudaitis and Luka Mitrovic. Every hear of those guys?
Stauskas was a player many people wanted the Sixers to draft the previous year when they ended up with Saric. Hinkied ended up getting Stauskas anyway, the ability to swap first round picks with one of the most dysfunctional organizations in the NBA for two years and all he gave up were two European guys no one has ever heard of that were 2nd round picks.
Yeah, you could have done that genius.
I've read a few articles on the Hinkie regime, and every one of them said it was a disaster and good riddance. I'm not sure anyone on this board is out of line who also thinks it is. He had a lot of other problems, other than putting one of the worst teams in NBA history on the court. His plan wasn't going to script after not getting Wiggins or Russell.
No need to defend the guy anyways, he wasn't fired (maybe he would have been but who knows)..... he basically just quit on the team before the going got hot, and left some rambling idiotic 13 page letter that apparently ticked everyone off in the organization.
No need to defend the guy anyways, he wasn't fired (maybe he would have been but who knows)..... he basically just quit on the team before the going got hot, and left some rambling idiotic 13 page letter that apparently ticked everyone off in the organization.
Not a sixers fan at all but I was very intrigued by the Tank and followed along.
I think it was a good idea as it was the only way for the team to compete for championships. In the NBA today either you sign the Lebron/Durants of the world (not gonna happen) or you draft your own. And to draft your own you have to be picking in the top 3, scout very well, and of course get lucky. I think Hinkie only did one of those 3
He did a great job dumping salary and acquiring picks (although I never understood the celebration for picking up worthless 2nd round picks). But I think his drafting (some of which was bad lottery luck) was mediocre at best. And I also think he fell in love with acquiring 'assets' to the point where the rebuild took on an indefinite time line.
I think the tanking process could work, but you need an expert in basketball scouting to run it, not a 'nerd' because the drafting decisions are so much more important
ps- Stauskas blows and if you plan on having the worst record in the NBA, the ability to swap picks doesnt mean anything
I think it was a good idea as it was the only way for the team to compete for championships. In the NBA today either you sign the Lebron/Durants of the world (not gonna happen) or you draft your own. And to draft your own you have to be picking in the top 3, scout very well, and of course get lucky. I think Hinkie only did one of those 3
He did a great job dumping salary and acquiring picks (although I never understood the celebration for picking up worthless 2nd round picks). But I think his drafting (some of which was bad lottery luck) was mediocre at best. And I also think he fell in love with acquiring 'assets' to the point where the rebuild took on an indefinite time line.
I think the tanking process could work, but you need an expert in basketball scouting to run it, not a 'nerd' because the drafting decisions are so much more important
ps- Stauskas blows and if you plan on having the worst record in the NBA, the ability to swap picks doesnt mean anything
Whether or not Stauskas pans out was probably not the main point of that trade, but the ability to have insurance to be able to swap in case Sacramento ended up with a better pick than the Sixers. They took on and ate salary that they had room to eat, IMO that was a brilliant low risk high reward trade.
Hinkie's drafting has been sound, they problem is that they got a bit unlucky in that they picked 1-2 spots later than their record during the season. They missed out on Wiggins/Parker when they picked 3rd (but had the 2nd worst record) and again picked 3rd last year. If you look at his picks he always took the best player regardless of position (hence 3 big men in a row). In a couple of years a player like Porzingas may turn out to be better than Okafor, but sitting on draft night 2015 while there were questions about both players, there were less questions around Okafor's game.
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