Hodge Trophy Still On
- Thread starter nittinsc
- Start date
How about Nolf, since this year is not complete and the fact that he is probably the best wrestler to not win one. I guess his teammates were too dog gone good! Great problem to have though for a fan.
I'll vote Pat Glory, undefeated, 70% bonus rate and showed up at Midlands to wrestle Spencer Lee actually.
I am going with the guy who managed to not put himself in a position to be suspended for the season. Besides that, without the suspension everybody knows AB was going to pin Zahid anyhow.
You condone him failing a banned substance test?? This wasnt a mere headgear yank.
I’ll take “something that would never be posted here if Spencer Lee wrestled for Penn State” for $200 Alex
You're not wrong, I'm just having a bit of fun lol.
Ask @WildTurk I said "Absolutely" when he asked "Spencer Lee for Hodge?" in the thread Zahid got suspended.
Moore had a good year as well.
Moore 26-0, 3 pins, 6 techs, 10 majors and 4 decisions
Lee 18-0, 4 pins, 9 techs, 3 majors and 1 decision, Lee also had one forfeit when MN didn't wrestle him.
Glory - 21-0, 4 pins, 8 techs, 3 majors and 6 decisions including an overtime win against Lehigh and a 3-0 win against Columbia University
Moore 26-0, 3 pins, 6 techs, 10 majors and 4 decisions
Lee 18-0, 4 pins, 9 techs, 3 majors and 1 decision, Lee also had one forfeit when MN didn't wrestle him.
Glory - 21-0, 4 pins, 8 techs, 3 majors and 6 decisions including an overtime win against Lehigh and a 3-0 win against Columbia University
I love Kollin also but he has done nothing to warrant it over Spencer. Past criteria strongly favors Spencer even, 2x champ.
Not like Ringer getting it, Zain might have had a slightly better 2016 season but Ringer had 2 previous championships.
Not like Ringer getting it, Zain might have had a slightly better 2016 season but Ringer had 2 previous championships.
Those generally point toward Lee as well.
"Criteria for the award includes a wrestler’s record, number of pins, dominance on the mat, past credentials, quality of competition, sportsmanship/citizenship and heart."
Among the undefeated wrestlers: Lee, Glory, Tucker, Kolodzik, Deakin, Griffith, Moore, Adams, Steveson.
I'm ruling out Zahid (and not discussing him further) for obvious reasons. Griffith won't win because freshman and also because he's generally considered the 3rd best wrestler at his own weight. Kolodzik and Steveson both wrestled half of the year.
# of Pins: no undefeated wrestlers made the D1 top 10 pinners. Griffith has the most among the undefeateds -- and he has 3 less than Mark Hall (who did make the top 10). After that, the rest are more or less equivalent -- except Tucker might not get any pins in a bowling alley.
Dominance: among the group, Lee is way ahead in both Most Dominant pts/match and bonus rate. Glory is next in both -- and he is behind Hall in both. Nobody else made 4.5 pts/match or 75% bonus rate. Tucker was awful in both categories.
Quality of Competition -- Deakin leads RPI; Moore, Glory, and Lee are clustered together for 2-4; Tucker and Adams bring up the rear. The best individual wins are Deakin (Hidlay, Carr) and Steveson (Parris). Lee and Glory are next for beating Piccininni. Most likely the voters will put a lot less thought into Quality of Competition than I did.
Past Credentials clearly favors Lee -- he and Zahid are the only undefeated returning national champs. Moore is the only other returning national finalist.
Sportsmanship/Citizenship obviously DQs Zahid and could be used against Steveson. Otherwise voters likely won't give this category much thought.
Heart is a nonsense category barring some truly compelling, inspirational story such as Robles.
Mark Hall! If Mark weighed what the above guys weighed he would decisively beat each one except for Spencer. Spencer would be a great pound for pound match. Mark is 24-1. Lost to #2 in the toughest building to wrestle. That disqualifies him for the Hodge? Come on! He had 11 falls, 1 stalling DQ, 1 Inj Default, 3 Tech Falls, 4 Majors, and only 2 regular Decisions during the season and 2 at the Big10s and one of those 2 was in the finals against Kem.
I'll take 11 falls at 174 over 4 falls by Lee at 125. Mark has the past history, previously beat the Arizona guy multiple times and everyone was handing the Arizona guy this year's trophy until he f'd up.
Citizenship, I wonder how many team bus rides home Mark almost missed because he was still signing autographs for kids at away matches.
And during his one loss, he almost decked Kem in the first 15 seconds. Few of us doubted Mark and he got his satisfaction at the Big10s beating Kem. Spencer on the other hand, wrestled the #7 guy from Purdue in the Big10 finals and won by Major.
I remember 7th ranked guys at Rec wrestling Bo, Jason, DT who feasted on them and rarely got to see the scoreboard show a 3rd period. Is Spencer a generational talent, yes, is Mark, hell yes.
The award should stay in the Valley, Mark earned it.
I'll take 11 falls at 174 over 4 falls by Lee at 125. Mark has the past history, previously beat the Arizona guy multiple times and everyone was handing the Arizona guy this year's trophy until he f'd up.
Citizenship, I wonder how many team bus rides home Mark almost missed because he was still signing autographs for kids at away matches.
And during his one loss, he almost decked Kem in the first 15 seconds. Few of us doubted Mark and he got his satisfaction at the Big10s beating Kem. Spencer on the other hand, wrestled the #7 guy from Purdue in the Big10 finals and won by Major.
I remember 7th ranked guys at Rec wrestling Bo, Jason, DT who feasted on them and rarely got to see the scoreboard show a 3rd period. Is Spencer a generational talent, yes, is Mark, hell yes.
The award should stay in the Valley, Mark earned it.
I hoped someone with a better knowledge of these things than me would reply.
Thanks Jefe.
Except we all know better.
Mark would've had an excellent case if he were still unbeaten. He would lead pins going away. He would be equivalent to Lee in Most Dominant (and ahead if he had pinned Kemerer).
His RPI is already ahead of Moore and might surpass Deakin. With wins over most of the top 10 at his weight, and bonus of several.
Plus the leadership aspect -- the bonus points he got when the team absolutely had to have them.
And he would meet the unwritten Lifetime Achievement unofficial criterion as a SR.
Thats a relief, I always thought you seemed like a sensible guy. Cheaters have NO place in our beloved sport.
How many guys will be on the ballot?
If he happens to make the ballot, I bet he steals a few homegrown votes at the very least.
WIN will announce finalists this Friday. 4-6 finalists most likely, based on last 10 years.
There are 7 unbeaten wrestlers (not counting Zahid).
Typically the final ballot has 3 or 4 wrestlers. Lee and Moore are guaranteed. It's really hard to see a 1 loss Hall being on the ballot over unbeaten Glory and Deakin.
Not counting Zahid, I count 9 unbeaten wrestlers. Are you not counting a couple because they didn't wrestle a full schedule?
That was my very first thought when Mark lost the squeaker to Kemerer "there goes the Hodge". Had he held on to that throw we would be talking about him and Lee only, and I would give the edge to Mark. Bummer.
That aside its Lee's all the way this year.
That aside its Lee's all the way this year.
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Including a win at Carver that would be key in an upset dual win on the road against the prohibitive favorite and #1 ranked team.
If "Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts"....
125 - Lee, Glory
133 - Tucker
141 - none
149 - Kolodzik
157 - Deakin
165 - Griffith
174 - none
184 - none
197 - Moore, Adams
285 - Steveson
I just did a search on "-0" on the tournament brackets. Those are the only names that appeared.
Zahid doesn't for obvious reasons.
Starocci and Kerk are unbeaten but shirting, so they don't count.
You're right, that's 9.
Those are the 9 I had. I think Lee is the favorite, but with pins being their second criteria it could open it up for someone else.
Good theory but those criteria have no official weighting. As we all learned from the 2016 Zain-Dieringer vote -- when the guy with more pins, who was much more dominant, against a much tougher schedule, did not win.
For that matter, there is nothing to prevent voters from ignoring Zahid's suspension (if he theoretically made the ballot), since 'Sportsmanship/Citizenship" is not defined or weighted. (I.e., voters could weigh that category so lightly as to make it a non-factor.)
The voters won't do that, but the rules allow them to.
Anyway, point being: Pins is the 2nd criteria only sequentially in the list. Each voter could weigh that 5% or 95% or pick a number.
I still have a hard time that a Big10 quality match (loss) ends your chance. So in the future a SoCon champ who runs the table will be the guy.
Of that list El presented, only, Lee, Deakin, Moore and Steveson were the NCAA #1 seeds. Steveson and Deakin has short seasons. Kolodzik was 6th (due to only 14 matches) Tucker and Griffith were 3rd seed. Anyone who is not seeded 1st should be out for the Hodge.
Based on undefeated, Cassar then is my pick.
Looking only at undefeated is foolish in my opinion
Of that list El presented, only, Lee, Deakin, Moore and Steveson were the NCAA #1 seeds. Steveson and Deakin has short seasons. Kolodzik was 6th (due to only 14 matches) Tucker and Griffith were 3rd seed. Anyone who is not seeded 1st should be out for the Hodge.
Based on undefeated, Cassar then is my pick.
Looking only at undefeated is foolish in my opinion
According to my 5 minutes of research, Brent Metcalf was the last Hodge Winner who wasn't undefeated. That was 2008. Like it or not, being undefeated is more or less a requirement of this award.
Spencer Lee absolutely had a Hodge-worthy season. The only possible "criticism" would be a lack of elite opponents, which wasn't his fault.
This isn't difficult. Spencer Lee should win the Hodge.
Feel free to ignore years of evidence.
Including the straw man of a SoCon wrestler, which has never happened.
Though to be completely fair: a SoCon wrestler who is an undefeated national champ should be a viable candidate.
Also, only considering #1 seeds eliminates Glory, who won a prestigious holiday tournament that Lee competed in.
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El, it's not a straw man, just a point that some conferences are more brutal than others. A focus on undefeated is just not right in my opinion especially when the loss is avenged.
I still think Hall is better than all names put forward with the exception of Spencer, then there is a discussion.
I did forget Glory in my list., thanks.
I still think Hall is better than all names put forward with the exception of Spencer, then there is a discussion.
I did forget Glory in my list., thanks.
Past history is part of the criteria.
This was VJ’s to lose until he lost. It’s now Lee’s trophy. 2 NC’s to zero for Moore or Glory. Moore has criteria over Glory in any event.
The Big10 is much more brutal than any other conference and second isn't withintelescope distance. However, you are arguing that a very high quality loss should not exclude Mark because well the Big10 is brutal.
Spencer is undefeated wrestling a Big10 schedule as is Moore and Deakin and Glory wrestled against Lehigh, Okie St and Iowa, and won the Midlands and of course the ever tough and almost perennial top 10 big10 power Rutgers. They all went undefeated despite wrestling a brutal schedule. The only iffie part of this conversation is can we vote for Spencer despite twice dodging Glory?
Do not bring his name up. He will start telling us how Rutgers has never had Hodge trophy winner let alone a candidate
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