Hodge Vote

[PSU James]

Carter needs to understand the fourth criteria of the Hodge Trophy….Sportsmanship

He might go undefeated next year and pick up his 4th Natty and the voters may still pick someone else because of criteria number four.

 

[Reslo]

Carter needs to understand the fourth criteria of the Hodge Trophy….Sportsmanship

He might go undefeated next year and pick up his 4th Natty and the voters may still pick someone else because of criteria number four.

I think we’re looking at it all wrong:

Carter did the magnanimous thing by locking up the Hodge for Aaron Brooks next season.

 

[hlstone]

Yeah but in high school 30-some years ago, our 189 lber constantly bumped up and won at HWT. So there’s that.

I think he had to weigh 188+ to bump up and it was a struggle for him to weigh enough.

That is exactly what I did. I would be drinking quarts of glass bottle Gatorade before weigh-ins. Orange or lemon/line. Never red🤮

 

[mcpat]

That is exactly what I did. I would be drinking quarts of glass bottle Gatorade before weigh-ins. Orange or lemon/line. Never red🤮

Only dude on the scale wearing socks and a singlet

 

[El-Jefe]

Even though he didn't win (finalist), I think you can include Derek White to the list.

Bulk Job was in the 240s at nationals, so he did not beat anybody who outweighed him by 50 lb.

 

[jsn4388]

Bulk Job was in the 240s at nationals, so he did not beat anybody who outweighed him by 50 lb.

You're missing the point. The point was a wrestler bulking up from lower weights up to HWT and dominated other HWT's (e.g., Cassar). White bulked up over time in college.

 

[El-Jefe]

You're missing the point. The point was a wrestler bulking up from lower weights up to HWT and dominated other HWT's (e.g., Cassar). White bulked up over time in college.

I'm replying to the point exactly as written.

 

[hlstone]

Only dude on the scale wearing socks and a singlet

Next time we meet up, remind me to share the story of when I wrestled a guy that cut to 275. It cracks me up everytime.

 

[johnstownsteel]

predictable and boring as usual

Shut up frat boy... lol

 

[PASLP2]

Carter needs to understand the fourth criteria of the Hodge Trophy….Sportsmanship

He might go undefeated next year and pick up his 4th Natty and the voters may still pick someone else because of criteria number four.

What about criteria number five?

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

I think we’re looking at it all wrong:

Carter did the magnanimous thing by locking up the Hodge for Aaron Brooks next season.

Maybe Carter’s tweet will be forgotten as quickly as Aaron’s post-title interview.

 

[JimNazium]

I voted for Paris in the Fan Vote. His regular season stats were the most impressive. Starocci has a case though as the high scorer at NCAAs. Many schools now just seem to be totally focused on the NCAA tournament. He would do well to increase his scoring on top. I didnt even notice they removed career accomplishments. I felt Zain should have had another of these honors. Allowing voters to consider career accomplishments if they wanted to ignore the most dominant from one season was ridiculous IMHO. I am glad they changed the criteria.

 

[voltz99]

... please list the multiple 197-pounders who have moved up and won national championships against guys who are 50-pounds heavier. Specifics to validate your point please. I'll provide my supporting material below on your claims.

As star-studded as heavyweight has been the last two years, its not a weight weight. It may not be the best weight, but it's hardly weak.

But let me drop some actual reality on you for a second. You bring up forfeits, which may actually be correct at the high school level (more at the highest and lowest weights), but at the Division I level, the data doesn't support the assertion.

125 pounds had the most forfeits in D1 duals this year with 23. That isn't the lesser extent (you'll see why in a second).

125 was followed by 157 and 197, with 17 forfeits each, then 285 with 11.

The least forfeited weight was 141 pounds, where only four forfeits in D1 matches were recorded.

This does not include the medicals, with wrestlers bailing out on tournaments, but situations where teams put athletes out on the mat.

Now, let's see if there were fewer heavies entered into the conference tournaments, since every team has the opportunity to enter someone there. Looks like 285 had just as many entries (77) as all the other weights, save one ACC weight where Duke had a late scratch and there were only 5 in a weight.

Snyder and cassar both moved up and won. Moving up from 197 to 285 is like a 149/157 to 197.

125 had the most forfeits. Thanks for the numbers. Makes my point. 285 is a little different but my argument does not change. Wrestlers can go up so 285 does not have as many forfeits. The talent in the class is still thin. Half the heavyweights are not even in shape. You don't see that in other weight classes.

 

[voltz99]

Actually I think it's a pretty easy argument for 285 -- the list of world medalists (see above).

The real argument against 285 is talent dilution from football, but no other country has that issue. Plus they're full-time, government-funded, and dedicated freestyle (or Greco).

Do any other college weights match that number of world medalists?

I did not think of football but that is totally true.

Carlton Haselrig went to loch Haven for football. He got hurt and transferred to Pitt Johnstown near home. I don't think they had a football team and he switched to wrestling. I don't think his high school even had a wrestling team. He won three D3 national championships and then wrestled up and won three D1 national championships.

Do you think anyone could do that at any weight other than heavyweight?

 

[Psugo823]

Not a fan of Carter's reply. This is a situation where you can make an argument that Starocci deserves it, but you can't make an argument that Parris doesn't, so why denigrate him for it?

Carter is allowed to be himself. He's an entertainment person.

 

[PSU James]

Now reading what Carter wrote. Lmao. Someone on Facebook pointed out that the picture posted of Mason Parris shows him with a weird expression. A little. Lmao comment might be warranted.

Plus… who cares. No one will remember a LMAO comment on one year.

 

[El-Jefe]

I did not think of football but that is totally true.

Carlton Haselrig went to loch Haven for football. He got hurt and transferred to Pitt Johnstown near home. I don't think they had a football team and he switched to wrestling. I don't think his high school even had a wrestling team. He won three D3 national championships and then wrestled up and won three D1 national championships.

Do you think anyone could do that at any weight other than heavyweight?

I really hope you're not basing your Weak HWT Division argument on things that happened 44 years ago.

It's entirely possible that this batch of HWTs you're discounting -- that their parents weren't yet born then.

But please explain how football dilution affects the quality of HWTs abroad, that our HWTs have medaled against for years in the very recent past.

 

[slushhead]

It says a lot when multiple 197 lbers can move up and win national championships against guys who are 50+ lbs heavier.

But that does not apply to 2023. Which is the only year that applies to, well, 2023.

 

[mcpat]

Carter is allowed to be himself. He's an entertainment person.

While I’d personally rather he didn’t say / post heel-type stuff like that, I agree with you. He is who he is and he seems to like to put stuff like that out there. He always backs it up. Maybe he even needs to be that way to keep his edge.

 

[Ski]

I did not think of football but that is totally true.

Carlton Haselrig went to loch Haven for football. He got hurt and transferred to Pitt Johnstown near home. I don't think they had a football team and he switched to wrestling. I don't think his high school even had a wrestling team. He won three D3 national championships and then wrestled up and won three D1 national championships.

Do you think anyone could do that at any weight other than heavyweight?

Small correction. He won his titles at D2 then D1. I spent a semester at UPJ playing pool before joining the AF.

 

[Ja1339]

I’m bummed for Carter, but didn’t like his comment. Also agree that Mason was very deserving, congrats to him.

I’m consoled by the fact that Carter is back next year, we have 2 guys going for number 4, and we’ve won 10 of 12 team titles. Life is pretty darn good for Penn State wrestling fans 😎

 

[JasonBryant]

I don't agree that 285 is some naturally weaker weight, but 4 of the last 7 titles meet your initial indignant paragraph!

What was indignant about it? When I see something that's an argumentative point on a wrestling board that I can disprove with data, I'll provide it (given the time). I also ask for the same in return so that people might learn something in the process (readers and those discussing it).

That being said, I'll concede Cassar checks that box and ONE of Snyder's, because he weighed at minimum 15 pounds over 197-pound weight class limit each time he stepped on the mat at 197.

There's no other weight class that has such a spread, so there was only one weight for him to go, it's not like he was weighing in a 197 and bumping up to begin with. He wrestled what he weighed following the first title.
After his first title at 285, he's a 285, so I'm not going to give the point the 2nd or 3rd of his titles.

So, to work this point out, since 1999, the only two D1 champion heavyweights who didn't start their college careers at 275/285 were Anthony Cassar and Kyle Snyder. Again, I'll give the argument Snyder's first. So two titles out of the last 24 were by "bumped up 197s."

So while "2" is technically a multiple, one being a freaking World and Olympic champ seems to be the outlier on one side, while one-time postseason starter Cassar is the outlier on the other.

 

[Random4598375]

Carter is allowed to be himself. He's an entertainment person.

He’s allowed to be himself if he wants. I just didn’t like that.

 

[El-Jefe]

What was indignant about it? When I see something that's an argumentative point on a wrestling board that I can disprove with data, I'll provide it (given the time). I also ask for the same in return so that people might learn something in the process (readers and those discussing it).

That being said, I'll concede Cassar checks that box and ONE of Snyder's, because he weighed at minimum 15 pounds over 197-pound weight class limit each time he stepped on the mat at 197.

There's no other weight class that has such a spread, so there was only one weight for him to go, it's not like he was weighing in a 197 and bumping up to begin with. He wrestled what he weighed following the first title.
After his first title at 285, he's a 285, so I'm not going to give the point the 2nd or 3rd of his titles.

So, to work this point out, since 1999, the only two D1 champion heavyweights who didn't start their college careers at 275/285 were Anthony Cassar and Kyle Snyder. Again, I'll give the argument Snyder's first. So two titles out of the last 24 were by "bumped up 197s."

So while "2" is technically a multiple, one being a freaking World and Olympic champ seems to be the outlier on one side, while one-time postseason starter Cassar is the outlier on the other.

Snyder competes internationally at 97 kg / 213 lb, but wasn't he at 235 lb otherwise?

Meaning that he rarely had to beat someone 50 lb heavier than him. Coon might be the only one. Pretty sure he never faced Wood or Jennings. Gwiz was 20 lb heavier, Nevills 25 lb.

 

[nitlion6]

I did not think of football but that is totally true.

Carlton Haselrig went to loch Haven for football. He got hurt and transferred to Pitt Johnstown near home. I don't think they had a football team and he switched to wrestling. I don't think his high school even had a wrestling team. He won three D3 national championships and then wrestled up and won three D1 national championships.

Do you think anyone could do that at any weight other than heavyweight?

Someone put the Ed Banach Mark Schultz match on one of these threads earlier today.

Mark didn't wrestle (at least formally) until the 11th grade and was a 3 time National champ at 167 and 177 (including beating other 3 time champ Banach), an Olympic gold medalist and at least another world gold. An amazing athlete that says yes something similar could be done.

 

[SpikingWhamos]

What was indignant about it? When I see something that's an argumentative point on a wrestling board that I can disprove with data, I'll provide it (given the time). I also ask for the same in return so that people might learn something in the process (readers and those discussing it).

That being said, I'll concede Cassar checks that box and ONE of Snyder's, because he weighed at minimum 15 pounds over 197-pound weight class limit each time he stepped on the mat at 197.

There's no other weight class that has such a spread, so there was only one weight for him to go, it's not like he was weighing in a 197 and bumping up to begin with. He wrestled what he weighed following the first title.
After his first title at 285, he's a 285, so I'm not going to give the point the 2nd or 3rd of his titles.

So, to work this point out, since 1999, the only two D1 champion heavyweights who didn't start their college careers at 275/285 were Anthony Cassar and Kyle Snyder. Again, I'll give the argument Snyder's first. So two titles out of the last 24 were by "bumped up 197s."

So while "2" is technically a multiple, one being a freaking World and Olympic champ seems to be the outlier on one side, while one-time postseason starter Cassar is the outlier on the other.

First, let's keep in mind I'm basically agreeing with you, the rest is just offseason nonsense.

Second, I'm keeping all of Snyder's. Those guys he wrestled in the finals count as 50 lbs., even if you have to round up for Medbery

And don't act like that wasn't an indignant reply, if you lead with an ellipses, you are indignant.

Finally, even with your framing, you admit 2 is technically a multiple?

 

[Folkstylefan]

Actually I think it's a pretty easy argument for 285 -- the list of world medalists (see above).

The real argument against 285 is talent dilution from football, but no other country has that issue. Plus they're full-time, government-funded, and dedicated freestyle (or Greco).

Do any other college weights match that number of world medalists?

Once again people put freestyle results in to justify folk accolades. Not saying Parris doesn’t deserve it as much as carter but lay off the freestyle crap when comparing folk especially those under senior level.

 

[jsn4388]

I'm replying to the point exactly as written.

This is what I replied to from NoVa Lion:

Not saying it is common, but Kerry McCoy and Anthony Cassar moved up to 285 and won NCAA titles. Can't think of any others off the top of my head, but their have been others that moved up and finished as AA. I agree that I don't think 285 is generally a weak weight, but it is generally a top heavy weight. 125 is a whole nother can of worms as so many freshman come in and AA.

So my point on Derek White stands based on NoVa Lion's comments.

 

[El-Jefe]

Once again people put freestyle results in to justify folk accolades. Not saying Parris doesn’t deserve it as much as carter but lay off the freestyle crap when comparing folk especially those under senior level.

OK, then you tell us how we should determine that HWT wasn't the squish weight others claimed.

Regardless of anyone's opinion of freestyle -- and you have made yours perfectly clear by denigrating it at every opportunity -- our guys who beat the best in the world should be recognized as having done so. Especially given that our guys don't train in that style year-round.

And when one weight does so at an astounding rate, that should also be recognized.

 

[AgSurfer]

Another guy who moved up to Hwy is Stephen Neal. (sort of) When he was a senior in HS, he was competing at 184 or whatever the HS weight was at the time. He didn't "bulk up" to Hwy, he just grew a lot bigger. I remember seeing him at an open freestyle tournament when he was just starting at CSUB as a freshman. He looked like he was somewhere in the range of 200 - 210 lbs. Two years later he was up around 240 - 250. I'm pretty sure he did add some extra weight when he played in the NFL. He was over 300 by then.

 

[JasonBryant]

We have the case of one true 197 pounder (cassar) bumping up to win 285. Snyder weighted over 197 before entering college. He cut down to 197 and wasn’t as effective (statistically speaking). So the “multiple” inclusion of a generational talent like Snyder is truly an outlier to the claim whereas the only other example to lay claim is Cassar.

Expand the dataset and it’s clear the claim isn’t as cut and dry as it sounds.

 

[HAMMER167]

Most extreme weight difference I saw was John Sefter 210 Lb HWT (Princeton) in 1978 NCAA Finals vs Jimmy Jackson (Oklahoma State) I think Jackson weighed about 400 lbs

Sefter became our PSU grad assistant coach

 

[SpikingWhamos]

We have the case of one true 197 pounder (cassar) bumping up to win 285. Snyder weighted over 197 before entering college. He cut down to 197 and wasn’t as effective (statistically speaking). So the “multiple” inclusion of a generational talent like Snyder is truly an outlier to the claim whereas the only other example to lay claim is Cassar.

Expand the dataset and it’s clear the claim isn’t as cut and dry as it sounds.

"one true [Scotsman]!"

 

[RoarLions1]

Honestly, I can understand how Parris won, given the criteria. Still, some interpretation of those four criteria allowed some discretion for the voters.

-- Interesting that Diakamihalis (6 first place votes), Alirez (4 votes) and O'Conner (2 votes) also received 1st place votes
-- In the fan voting, Parris won by a large margin, with Starocci second, BUT ALL TEN WRESTLERS HAD VOTES

Bias and prejudice enter in every year, whether it is regional voting, team preference, whatever. And whether we like it or not, the spiciness of Starocci's tweet(s) WILL impact some voters. Some here have noted support, while others found it somewhat cringe-worthy. Same with a national audience, especially when looking for reasons beyond the color of a singlet to diss a PSU guy.

I find it hard to dislike Carter at all, as I know him. It's not my style to tweet something like he did, but I understand it. If anything is missing, it's his awareness of his tweets' impact at a national level. Frankly speaking, I'm not sure he cares...but there are consequences.

 

[donboy6499]

Can someone provide me a clear metric we can use for Sportsmanship? Feels like we should measure and monitor that.

 

[Split shot]

Can someone provide me a clear metric we can use for Sportsmanship? Feels like we should measure and monitor that.

As in we are still figuring out Generational Talent? LMAO

 

[bourbon n blues]

Yesterday at the gym, I met a young man who went to high school with him. He had a lot of nice things to say about him and his family, first, Carter was always incredibly disciplined.
He was on point about everything, his training, consistently working out, eating well, doing whatever it took to be the best. He also complemented his family and said they were very decent, they’re always nice and very supportive.
One thing that was kind of funny, however, was that certain people were making fun of him from walking him for going to state. Supposedly he heard some people say things like where are you going to Tifney, there’s a cream of the crop. Do you see really think you’re gonna make it there?
I’m wondering if his doubters or people back from high school that were questioning his talent might’ve had something to do with his attitude?

 

[RB-Old]

If you flipped it and put Carter on Michigan and Parris on PSU Carter would have won it. The powers that be want parity and having PSU win the team title AND the Hodge is bad for business. I also think they're assuming Carter will get one down the road so Parris got it just for being a senior. It's Derringer all over again.

 

[McScoreley]

Can someone provide me a clear metric we can use for Sportsmanship? Feels like we should measure and monitor that.

There's no clear metric obviously but Carter's actions against Washington this year definitely puts him in last place when nobody else acts like that. I love Carter and want him to be himself, be cocky, call people out but what he did in that dual was not okay period. His "lmao" is not a good look either when someone else (who has won on the proper criteria) is being announced as the winner.

 

[donboy6499]

There's no clear metric obviously but Carter's actions against Washington this year definitely puts him in last place when nobody else acts like that. I love Carter and want him to be himself, be cocky, call people out but what he did in that dual was not okay period. His "lmao" is not a good look either when someone else (who has won on the proper criteria) is being announced as the winner.

I hear you, but I just find it kind of comical that we are just throwing out subjectives for the award.

Might as well throw out "Good attitude", "Winner", "Someone to look up to".

Mason Parris should have won this year, no question. But not because of sportsmanship, because he had a better year. Carter lost his cool a bit, but (and I don't know the answer, asking sincerely) did he cost his team a team point? Because he's on social laughing, uh oh, ding him on the Hodge. LOL.

If what Carter did this year, any of it, gets taken to unsportsmanlike places where it costs him major awards, what are we even doing here?