Whether Tony is right or wrong, this was not the way to address it. The entire issue likely falls into the area of communication (or lack thereof), and how Tony handled last night points toward him as the one more responsible for the communication issue. Perception is reality.
Holy hell - Ramos goes off
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Agree and as far as I'm concerned Ramos' bout against Dennis shouldn't have even taken place. Nahshon should have been alive in the Semis, not Ramos.
That's a good point between that match and Coleman Scott he was living on borrowed time. Plenty of controversy and criteria went his way. Take a damn shot. It's to represent your country in the Olympics.
I don't see how this hurts Brands even microscopically. He brought the top competition into the room. He assigned to Ramos the former US National Freestyle Coach.
Ramos comes across as emotionally unstable, petulant, entitled, and distracted. Does he really believe Metcalf would've cared if Brands had brought in Molinaro? Why does he care about Twitter rumors of OMG M* had dinner with someone else? He seems so consumed for so long by the idea that Brands was trying to screw him, that he screwed himself.
I hope today, with the immediate shock of losing gone, he realizes how big an ass he made of himself and publicly and privately rectifies it.
And, yes, probably best for all involved if he leaves Iowa City, at least for a while.
As one who is not perfect, no bashing at all from me. Not unlike Cael's constant reference to wrestling being a "process", life is a "process" too. Fans can be brutal.
When I woke up this morning and read the blow up, I was immediately reminded of all the times I was on both sides of a manager/employee miscommunication, and that what one person says can be completely misconstrued by another even when both agree on what was said. Sometimes it can be the way someone was perceived to look when they said it or where it was said even that changes everything that was actually said.
Just a hypothetical about how things can go off. Say Brands said, "Tony, I'm in your corner". To Brands, it may have been literal, it may have been spiritual, it may have monetary. There's a lot of meanings in words, and even that can change based on how it is said. It is highly likely that what Tony perceived he was promised is not what Brands meant to promise, and the failure was not being specific and communicative. Neither are probably wrong, so neither should be bashed. My only issue is how Tony went about addressing the issue. They're both grown men, but understand the heat of the moment thing.
Ramos had this building up in his head for awhile. Tom said this isn't the first time Ramos has wanted to head out on his own. Namely the Chicago area. After Ramos settles down he will look at it differently I'm sure. Sensitive subject all around.
I think Brands handled it about as well as you could. I do not think Ramos handled it very well. However, I think Ramos has a valid point or 2. If he feels he was lied to or mislead and someone he has been working with and preparing with for this moment is in your opponents corner, that is going to mess with your head. This was a tough situation for all involved and I don't agree with how Ramos aired it all out when he was obviously very emotional, but I think he has legit complaints that could have seriously hurt his chances last night.
Re: Spencer Lee - IMO PSU does not need Spencer to continue its run; however Spencer would really help PSU continue its run. Iowa really needs Spencer to get back into the title hunt.
Re: Spencer Lee - IMO PSU does not need Spencer to continue its run; however Spencer would really help PSU continue its run. Iowa really needs Spencer to get back into the title hunt.
Be careful over on HR. Seems to be a touchy subject today. I got the ban hammer pretty quickly. Don't think they are in much of a mood to hear from PSU fans right now. Lol
Well you did go to DEFCON 4 on the morning after the apolocolypse happened.
Probably a little soon to try and prove a point especially given the subject matter you used.
Agree with statement below and I think one of the factors weighing on Spencer's decision is certainly a former high school teammate on the Iowa roster today. This may be, albeit the least important to some, be what lands young Spencer in Iowa City. More than him being there, possibly how he was recruited or not recruited by PSU.
Re: Spencer Lee - IMO PSU does not need Spencer to continue its run; however Spencer would really help PSU continue its run. Iowa really needs Spencer to get back into the title hunt.[/QUOTE]
Re: Spencer Lee - IMO PSU does not need Spencer to continue its run; however Spencer would really help PSU continue its run. Iowa really needs Spencer to get back into the title hunt.[/QUOTE]
You just need to learn how to play nicely in the sandbox with the other kids!
lol
If that's the case, then send him to Arizona State now, because he has two HS teammates in Tempe who were or were not recruited by PSU.
I find this to be a little Karmic justice. I'm sure most of you have seen on HR that Cael is a liar, mostly referenced to Andrew Long's tribulations and with recruiting. Isn't it rich that the shoe is now on the other foot. Ye without sin cast the first stone.
I think he goes beyond even that. If I am hearing Ramos correctly, he made it clear to TB that he was against DD's coming back to the HWC (a Freestyle Wrestling Club that technically is not part of Iowa's wrestling team). Ramos felt he was the #1 guy at his International Weight and should have a say as to who gets brought in to be his "training partner". Ramos alluded that TB's told him that he was definitely the #1 man at 57 kg and DD was being brought in as a training partner. Here's where it gets weird imo - after landing at HWC, Ramos claims that he begins to get the feeling that he is not the #1 guy and that DD is being treated like the #1 guy at 57 including TB primarily coaching DD and TR being relegated to Terry Brands. Ramos claims this upset him for multiple reasons one of them being that it seemed to him that one of the motivations for the timing of DD's moves was to give him exposure to Ramos "in the room" which would allow him to pick up Ramos' tendencies, strengths and weaknesses. From what Ramos says, it sounds like he went to Bubba shortly after DD's arrival and basically said, "Hey, what's the deal here -- who do consider #1, who is "your guy" and who do you really believe has the best shot at the 2016 Olympic Team at the trials. Ramos clearly states that Bubba told him he was still the guy and Bubba would corner both of them but if there were a conflict and he could only be in one of their corners, Bubba would corner Ramos - that was the commitment Ramos moved forward under. Apparently, Bubba cornered DD in the finals which gives credence to all of Ramos' concerns earlier including that DD's was brought in to be the #1 guy for the 2016 Olympic Trials and this is why Bubba worked with DD from the day he returned and TR was relegated to Terry and Morningstar (this would have given DD unprecedented exposure to TR that he never would have gotten out in CA) -- TR in his presser claims that Terry Brands is in full agreement with all of his beefs up-to-and-including DD being treated like the #1 guy and TR being treated like #2 from the day DD returned to the HWC.
This is a very bizarre story and is about TR feeling betrayed and lied to about his and DD's status with the HWC, especially "coaching assignment and prioritization" than it is about both of them wrestling for HWC. Basically Ramos is saying that Bubba was intentionally disingenuous with him on multiple important topics to Ramos' post-graduate career - again, according to Ramos Bubba was not straight with him and intentionally misled him on a multitude of topics that Ramos clearly stated were important to him.
Keep in mind, Bubba is effectively TR's and DD's boss at this point - he is not their collegiate coach anymore. I'm not saying that TR is representing everything accurately, but to the extent he is more-or-less representing things accurately, I think he has a legitimate beef if he asked his boss straightforward questions when he was considering leaving due to a "new hire" and Bubba, as his boss, INTENTIONALLY misled Ramos on the topics that Ramos raised including that he would always corner Ramos at tournaments if conflicts arose between he and a match DD was in.....if Bubba was in DD's corner for the finals, that speaks pretty dramatically to that supposed commitment and who Bubba felt was #1.
In any event, I gotta believe this is going to have an impact with elite recruits - Ramos was pretty adamant that he was not only lied to, but betrayed essentially by promises Bubba made to DD coupled with intentional misleading statements to TR (if you listen to Ramos, he essentially claims that he was "setup" and that Bubba only misled him to get him to stick around because Bubba promised DD that he would get him the exposure he needed to TR to get him ready for 2016 Trials and that DD was being groomed as the #1 contender from the moment he arrived back at HWC and Bubba's statements to get TR to stay were intentional misrepresentations delivered to get him to stay as a training partner for DD, not the opposite).
Who in this story is playing "bubba"? Oh and does he wear a mask and drive tricked out cars?
You know you can clearly go to the you tube clips of the matches and as soon as the match starts you can see Tom Brands and M* sitting BEHIND the scorers table and in no one's corner. So if your BUBBA is Tom Brands you just typed a lot for no reason.
Franklin, there are a couple holes in that narrative. Neither Tom Brands (Bubba) or * were in DD's corner last night. They played it neutral, and I have no problem with that. Secondly, Tony had the premier lightweight freestyle coach in the country in his corner, Terry Brands. What's the beef? You have the best coach. Third, I believe Terry runs the HWC, so Terry is effectively his boss. Again, his boss, who is the best freestyle lightweight coach in the country, is your corner man. Where's the beef?
The only part I disagree with is that Bubba and Ramos are no longer in a "coach - wrestler" collegiate relationship; they're now in an Boss-employee career relationship. To the extent that Ramos was considering leaving due to unhappiness after the "new hire" (e.g., DD) AND asked Bubba a series of straightforward questions that Bubba did indeed give him intentionally misleading answers to (like telling him that he would absolutely be in Ramos' corner and "corner him" if a conflict were to arise between he and DD's matches in tournaments, etc...). I would disagree that Bubba did not OWE HIM straightforward answers to questions that Ramos was making hugely important Career Decisions upon for he and his family. According to Ramos, he has reviewed all of his beefs with Terry Brands and Terry agrees with him as to how he was treated. If Bubba is perceived to be not trustworthy or "candid" in regards to these types of issues (career changes based upon one's status at HWC), I can see how it would be a big deal with elite recruits
I think you nailed it. Tom Brands in his interview kept saying over and over he was IN Tony's corner and Tony was HIS guy. By that IMHO Brands did not literally mean he would be in the corner for every match but that he was in the corner for ALL Hawkeyes and ALL Hawkeyes were HIS guy. Obviously Ramos did not hear it that way. Personally I think a lot of this was heat of the moment and it blows over, although I wouldn't be surprised at all if Ramos left the HWC.
I'm surprised you made the whole through that, to be able to ask a question about it.
Don't disagree with your points, Chief. But I'm pretty sure Dennis and Ramos did not train together. This is from a release the Iowa sports information people put out last week:
Dennis returned to the mat at 61 kg (134 pounds), and has since positioned himself as a threat at 57 kg, dominating the U.S. Senior Nationals in Las Vegas in December. But he wasn't the only wrestler at 57 kg when he returned to the Dan Gable Wrestling Complex. The younger and flashier Ramos -- a two-time U.S. World Team member -- trains on a mat nearby.
The two were 133-pound teammates in 2009-10 when Dennis advanced to the NCAA final and Ramos was 12-0 competing unattached. Nowadays they are like ships passing in the night -- both members of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, but never training partners.
"I don't think it benefits either of us," Dennis said. "I don't feel a need for it; I don't steer away from it by any means, but we're on our own track toward the same goal."
The two were 133-pound teammates in 2009-10 when Dennis advanced to the NCAA final and Ramos was 12-0 competing unattached. Nowadays they are like ships passing in the night -- both members of the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, but never training partners.
"I don't think it benefits either of us," Dennis said. "I don't feel a need for it; I don't steer away from it by any means, but we're on our own track toward the same goal."
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I'm surprised you made the whole through that, to be able to ask a question about it.
Same here. I thought Bubba was still working out at ASU. Was I wrong about that?
Again, not saying Ramos' version is perfectly accurate - saying if it is "more-or-less" accurate, especially seeking some answers to some questions when he was thinking about leaving HWC (e.g., a career change) after the "new hire" of DD - to the extent that Bubba gave him intentionally misleading answers regarding his status at HWC just to get him to stick around (e.g., rather than the truth and candid answers - he owes him that given their boss-employee relationship) that would be wrong in my opinion.
Again, not saying Ramos' version is perfectly accurate - saying if it is "more-or-less" accurate, especially seeking some answers to some questions when he was thinking about leaving HWC (e.g., a career change) after the "new hire" of DD - to the extent that Bubba gave him intentionally misleading answers regarding his status at HWC just to get him to stick around (e.g., rather than the truth and candid answers - he owes him that given their boss-employee relationship) that would be wrong in my opinion.
I have been critical of many things involving Tom Brands at different times, and have been banned from HR for voicing my opinion on a couple of these topics, but.......Anybody who knows Tom or Terry at all knows they are 100% all in with the guys they coach. Tom would not have intentionally lied to Tony about the DD situation just to screw him over. That is not who Tom Brands is. He does not operate with deceit of that type. Tom is who he says he is. I don't like some of the things I've noticed the past several years in the program, but nothing about the honesty or integrity of the Brands would make my list. Old school-too tough on guys-over trains-too intense- any of these may or may not be true, but honesty and integrity are not things Tom Brands lacks imo.
I also feel the same way about Tony Ramos. Great young man who is all in with the people he cares about. I believe he is sincere in his hurt, but I do wonder if he will view it differently once he can clear his head. He just suffered through a terrible heart break. I hope these guys can work this out and stay the course. Tony is one of the most "Hawkeye" guys you will ever meet. He is a hero to many young kids wrestling in our state, and very warm and caring with the young wrestlers he helps. He is somewhat like a young Terry Brands. The Flo video on Terry talked about him wanting to climb a fence and run into the wild after losing in this same spot- I wish Tony had run off and found himself alone with his thoughts for a couple of days before this interview. He was obviously hurting a great deal. There are better days ahead and Tom will forgive him completely.
I also feel the same way about Tony Ramos. Great young man who is all in with the people he cares about. I believe he is sincere in his hurt, but I do wonder if he will view it differently once he can clear his head. He just suffered through a terrible heart break. I hope these guys can work this out and stay the course. Tony is one of the most "Hawkeye" guys you will ever meet. He is a hero to many young kids wrestling in our state, and very warm and caring with the young wrestlers he helps. He is somewhat like a young Terry Brands. The Flo video on Terry talked about him wanting to climb a fence and run into the wild after losing in this same spot- I wish Tony had run off and found himself alone with his thoughts for a couple of days before this interview. He was obviously hurting a great deal. There are better days ahead and Tom will forgive him completely.
So there were many holes poked in your initial conspiracy theory including you outright misrepresenting the fact that Tom Brands was in DD's corner and now you have a new theory? Listen I'm not a fan of the Brands Brothers but this is ridiculous. We get it you don't like Iowa and if you throw enough theory against the wall some will stick. Ramos got his ass kicked. He blew up like a child afterwards and it may or may not hurt Iowa recruiting. To try to pin this all on Brands is ridiculous. As always there are 3 sides to any story.
Yeah and I heard that Bubba even apologized for Bubba and Cael's misunderstanding and does this now mean the Bubba has to apologize again, to Ramos.Same here. I thought Bubba was still working out at ASU. Was I wrong about that?
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IMHO, so much about nothing.
Ramos has always worn his emotions on his sleeve. As long as he wins, it's endearing. When he loses, it doesn't look (or sound) too good.
Years from now, this is likely to only be remembered by fans that read too much into what Ramos said. He's been an excellent wrestler for many years. For whatever reason, he didn't show a lot of offense at the Trials, and eventually that caught up to him.
Daniel Dennis is a feel-good story. If I'm thinking about the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, and what they do for their members, I'm far more likely to put stock into Dennis' performance at the 2016 Trials than I am in the comments of Ramos after he lost in the finals.
Ramos has always worn his emotions on his sleeve. As long as he wins, it's endearing. When he loses, it doesn't look (or sound) too good.
Years from now, this is likely to only be remembered by fans that read too much into what Ramos said. He's been an excellent wrestler for many years. For whatever reason, he didn't show a lot of offense at the Trials, and eventually that caught up to him.
Daniel Dennis is a feel-good story. If I'm thinking about the Hawkeye Wrestling Club, and what they do for their members, I'm far more likely to put stock into Dennis' performance at the 2016 Trials than I am in the comments of Ramos after he lost in the finals.
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How was Kemerer recruited or not recruited? We signed only 1 big time blue chipper that year and it was the guy who beat Kemerer at States. Pretty logical move by Cael to keep his powder dry for the Suriano/Hall class.
We usually add a few Toms every year, but they suddenly disappear around Thanksgiving. Not sure why...
If, again IF Tom Brands in fact told Tony Ramos one thing about who would be his coach for the Trials, then did another without first making sure Ramos was on board with any coaching switch, then I think we're talking about a breach of good faith -- a lack of integrity if you will. And that's mostly what I heard Ramos say. In a couple sentences at the top of the script he accepted responsibility for results on the mat, then went on to describe what he obviously felt was a breach of faith on the part of Brands.
I don't agree with the way Ramos handled the situation. If he intended to go public as he did, he should've gone behind closed doors with Brands first. Maybe he felt one "good" turn deserves another, who knows. And obviously disappointment with the loss played a large part. But after listening to both Ramos' ventilation and Brands' response to it, I'm honestly left wondering if Tom Brands might've been less than completely honest with his wrestler.
I never saw the match live - only saw score updates on this site, so I have no idea who was in whose corner! BTW dingbat, it is not my "conspiracy theory" - it is what Ramos represented at the post-match Press Conference, last time I checked he wrestled for both Iowa, HWC and the Brands Brother's.....so much for you trying to absurdly claim it's something I made up - you HR freaks are too much sometimes. BTW, Ramos did not say "the Brands" lied to him - in fact he said the diametric opposite about Terry Brands, said he could confirm many of his statements - his primary claim was that Tom Brands intentionally misled him right after he had brought DD back to the HWC and he [Ramos] asked him a bunch of questions regarding his own status with HWC and that he was thinking of a career change [e.g., leaving HWC]. Ramos claims he was all but out the door and Tom Brands told him things to get him to stay that he did not honor or answers that were clearly not and did not line-up with subsequent actions. I have no idea, how Tom Brands answered the questions that Ramos asked when he was thinking about leaving, but guess what, neither do you!
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Agree with last part. But while Iowa's got an assembly line of lightweights producing at high levels, I think they need to focus more on the 6-7 other weights - comparative weakness there is what's killing them. They focused on recruiting blue chip guys recently but who are the mid-upper weight coaches/athletes to groom them and counteract their rivals? Even if, say, our combo of Suriano, Cortez, and future lightweight recruits from our footprint keeps up with their lightweight crew or even lags behind, they won't stand a chance as long as we keep up stocking a murderer's row between 157-197.
I'd love to have Lee here and it would sting not to land the #1 guy from our state at a need weight (assuming Nick moves up), but Pa and the rest of our main recruiting grounds are going to keep pumping out solid/excellent guys regardless. It's like the Axis powers being worn down in WWII by the allies. Once we retrofitted our auto plants to produce military vehicles and Henry Kaiser got his shipyards going, we overwhelmed them in sheer numbers.
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