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Holy hell - Ramos goes off

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I concur.

We all have our own ideas of what are good discussions, so-so discussions, poor discussions, and dumpster fire discussions. In general, the number of responses in a thread, and the number of views of the thread, are an indication of how interesting the community finds the topic/discussion. When threads become a mess, as this one has become, those figures provide misleading information.

I could lock the thread, but I really dislike doing that.

My simple request is that folks walk away from this thread, and not post any more responses. It has more than run its course.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good enough Tom - I'll respect your request....was just pointing out that there are two-sides to every story regardless of whether that comports with the biases of some on here or not.
 
I like squared circles

I prefer flat circles, like time.
giphy.gif
 
Explain what? I have never I believe begged u to leave if I did I'm sorry. I do converse with Penn State fans on our board however: we have so many of them that are trolls hard for me to keep it straight and sorry forget there names at this moment and to tired to go look them up.
I have done my best here to get along I know that a few years ago over the Long deal I maybe came across as a bad ass. Any of u people that know GOLDBANGER u can ask him what kind of fan I'm.
Lately only been posting here to stick up for Brands and I don't like what Tony did if he can't take getting beat that is his problem. Lets say Ruth and Taylor would meet in that finals I know for sure that the loser of the match would not use the excuse of who was or was not in his cornor. If u wish for me to leave I can gladly do that summer is here and be golfing everyday and next year will just stay away.

Stop that nonsense, you're always welcome her my friend! Met minnhawkeye in Oklahoma City a couple of years ago. Great guy, and so were the other Hawkeye fans at our hotel. See you in St Louis next year.

Now, this is my first comment on the Ramos situation. I think Tony felt betrayed, from what he says, by TB actively recruiting DD and from his perspective, favoring Dennis over him. After all, perception is reality and that I believe is Tony's.
 
Stop that nonsense, you're always welcome her my friend! Met minnhawkeye in Oklahoma City a couple of years ago. Great guy, and so were the other Hawkeye fans at our hotel. See you in St Louis next year.

Now, this is my first comment on the Ramos situation. I think Tony felt betrayed, from what he says, by TB actively recruiting DD and from his perspective, favoring Dennis over him. After all, perception is reality and that I believe is Tony's.
Agree with Goldbanger. Stick around Minnhawk, you're a good egg, as are MOST fans of ALL programs, Hawks, Nits, Pokes, hell even Cornell....

(maybe not so much Cornell)
 
I concur.

We all have our own ideas of what are good discussions, so-so discussions, poor discussions, and dumpster fire discussions. In general, the number of responses in a thread, and the number of views of the thread, are an indication of how interesting the community finds the topic/discussion. When threads become a mess, as this one has become, those figures provide misleading information.

I could lock the thread, but I really dislike doing that.

My simple request is that folks walk away from this thread, and not post any more responses. It has more than run its course.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like some people didn't respect your "enough already" request Tom - go figure! Amazed how often the biggest whiner is also the biggest offender yet again.
 
Just a unique situation, but I just listened to FRL and Willie basically said exactly what I was thinking. I can certainly see how this came about and it was probably a long time coming. Ramos is an "us against them" guy - no doubt about it. He also just had his dream crushed. By a guy in his club, who by all accounts is a very well liked guy who was teammates with Metcalf and Morningstar and is probably good friends with some other high profile Hawkeyes like Alger. There's probably not a lot of middle ground with Ramos there - anybody who is friends with or is coaching Dennis is probably on the other side of the fence to Ramos when it comes to Dennis being his top competition - in light of his loss. I can understand Ramos' feelings here, but do not agree with them.

I can't fault Tom Brands here at all, what is he going to do as the head of the entire program when he has to take a global view of the HWC. Much easier for Terry in his role to be the good guy in Ramos' eyes. The only thing you could say negatively about Tom is that he knows the personality of the athlete he is dealing with - maybe he could have been more proactive in diffusing the situation. But likely there was no solution that would have been satisfactory to Ramos and still been doing what was right as the head man of the club. And most likely, Brands knew this and made the right calls here.

Again, I can understand Ramos' feelings. Don't agree with them and he is wrong for "taking it outside the family." But then again, going by his history, I don't understand how Hawkeye fans would expect Ramos to keep it inhouse if he perceived any slight - real or imaginary - at all. That's just not his style.

I'd expect that sometime in the future with maturity and perspective, that Ramos will mend fences with Iowa and Brands. But I wouldn't expect it any time soon. The guy has just come up short of probably his life's goal. I think most fans and people in the wrestling community realize that more so than some message board posters. I'd expect that most Hawkeye fans know that what caused Ramos to be such a fan favorite is also the reason that they are dealing with this fallout right now.
 
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Just a unique situation, but I just listened to FRL and Willie basically said exactly what I was thinking. I can certainly see how this came about and it was probably a long time coming. Ramos is an "us against them" guy - no doubt about it. He also just had his dream crushed. By a guy in his club, who by all accounts is a very well liked guy who was teammates with Metcalf and Morningstar and is probably good friends with some other high profile Hawkeyes like Alger. There's probably not a lot of middle ground with Ramos there - anybody who is friends with or is coaching Dennis is probably on the other side of the fence to Ramos when it comes to Dennis being his top competition - in light of his loss. I can understand Ramos' feelings here, but do not agree with them.

I can't fault Tom Brands here at all, what is he going to do as the head of the entire program when he has to take a global view of the HWC. Much easier for Terry in his role to be the good guy in Ramos' eyes. The only thing you could say negatively about Tom is that he knows the personality of the athlete he is dealing with - maybe he could have been more proactive in diffusing the situation. But likely there was no solution that would have been satisfactory to Ramos and still been doing what was right as the head man of the club. And most likely, Brands knew this and made the right calls here.

Again, I can understand Ramos' feelings. Don't agree with them and he is wrong for "taking it outside the family." But then again, going by his history, I don't understand how Hawkeye fans would expect Ramos to keep it inhouse if he perceived any slight - real or imaginary - at all. That's just not his style.

I'd expect that sometime in the future with maturity and perspective, that Ramos will mend fences with Iowa and Brands. But I wouldn't expect it any time soon. The guy has just come up short of probably his life's goal. I think most fans and people in the wrestling community realize that more so than some message board posters. I'd expect that most Hawkeye fans know that what caused Ramos to be such a fan favorite is also the reason that they are dealing with this fallout right now.

Story goes deeper than that as apparently NBC Sports reported during their broadcast that:

VT was inches away from adding Dan Dennis as the third hire last summer. Dennis was ready to come with Zadick and St. John and compete, and Iowa countered with a better offer to keep him home.

Ramos also referenced this in his post-match press conference comments:

“It’s just things like that that shouldn’t be handled like that in that situation. Dennis was on his way out of here to go to Virginia Tech and Tom bent over backwards to bring him back. Why would you do that to your top athlete who is No. 1 on the ladder right now, put him in that situation?”

Ramos was clearly angered and frustrated at what was given to DD to get him to stay relative to his own package as the #1 guy. THIS ARTICLE from Black Heart Gold Pants also talks about the VaTech connection, and the role it may have played, at the bottom of the article. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if VaTech wasn't the party that came back after Ramos after failing to get DD on TB's counter-offer to DD and this is the opportunity that Ramos is referring to that he forewent due to promises and commitments made when he went to tell TB he was leaving....
 
That's because you clearly misunderstand what he was UPSET about - he was not upset about DD training with HWC, just as he wasn't upset about Matt McDonough being a member of the HWC at the same time he was prior to MM getting injured. What clearly upset him was the overall treatment and compensation that DD was receiving as an EMPLOYEE of HWC RELATIVE to himself considering that he was the two-time defending US World Team Rep (via tournament wins) and the longstanding #1 Ranked US Wrestler at 57kg. Ramos has stated that his beef with Tom Brands is that he had BETTER OFFERS relative to what he was getting from HWC at the time and he was prepared to leave HWC which is why he went to Tom Brands (which is what you are SUPPOSED TO DO IN THAT SITUATION!). Ramos, for whatever reason, and reasons known only to HE & TB, felt that he was misled by representations that TB made when he talked him out of LEAVING HWC for greener pastures and pursuing an opportunity that had been presented to him at the time. To the extent that TB talked him out of leaving and that has cost he and his family a lot of $$$ both in terms of current comp and long-term comp, he potentially has a very legit beef.

Actually, Tony has said that he didn't think it was appropriate for Dennis to be training at the HWC while he was if he was competing at the same weight. So yes, that is certainly part of his problem. He reiterated it yesterday on a radio show as well, that iron does not sharpen iron and that he didn't like that he was training with a guy he had to compete against.
 
Actually, Tony has said that he didn't think it was appropriate for Dennis to be training at the HWC while he was if he was competing at the same weight. So yes, that is certainly part of his problem. He reiterated it yesterday on a radio show as well, that iron does not sharpen iron and that he didn't like that he was training with a guy he had to compete against.

You may not be a fan of Charles Schultz like I am. But in case you wanted to know in 2017 charlie Brown still misses kicking the football when lucy is holding it. The same concept can be applied when trying to discuss something with Bushwood/Franklin.
 
Askren calling Ramos a "crybaby" is out of line.

Agree with that - way out of line.
Actually, Tony has said that he didn't think it was appropriate for Dennis to be training at the HWC while he was if he was competing at the same weight. So yes, that is certainly part of his problem. He reiterated it yesterday on a radio show as well, that iron does not sharpen iron and that he didn't like that he was training with a guy he had to compete against.

I think you're misinterpreting his comments and meaning to some degree -- Ramos already stated that he had no problem with Matt McDonough competing at the same weight class, but what really upset Ramos was that VaTech had apparently agreed to pay DD #1 type money to get him to go to VaTech's Freestyle Club as #1 man at 57kg when Zadeck and St. John went there, but TB made a counter-offer to DD that he couldn't refuse to bring him back in the HWC fold at HWC such that Ramos may not have been being compensated as the #1 guy at HWC after this event - here is the exact quote from Ramos at the post-match PC:

“It’s just things like that that shouldn’t be handled like that in that situation. Dennis was on his way out of here to go to Virginia Tech and Tom bent over backwards to bring him back. Why would you do that to your top athlete who is No. 1 on the ladder right now, put him in that situation?”

I believe what TR is saying is that he did not believe DD should have been given a package that equated to #1 man at 57kg.....he should have been allowed to leave with Zadeck and St. John and let VaTech pay him as their #1 man. I believe that is what TR is saying when he says DD should not have even been there (e.g., there is no way HWC should have offered DD what they did to stay ["Tom Brands bent over backwards to bring him back"] when they already had the nations #1 Ranked wrestler at the weight class on their roster.).
 
I find it interesting in the yarygin interviews with Dennis, he says that there is no spite in the room and also had been out to Colorado Springs (not sure what year) invited by Tony to be his training partner. In addition, after Tony made his first world team, he was all about the HWC getting more guys in the room and having multiple guys at every weight.
 
It's often been said here that when guys are training together, the gap can close pretty quickly because wrestlers become familiar with each other. I can see it being a fine line between wanting to train with the best guys out there and not wanting someone you compete against learning your style and tendencies that will help them during competition. Tony certainly should have used a less public forum to air is greivances but I can certainly see why he had a problem with the way things shook out there.
 
thinking. I can certainly see how this came about and it was probably a long time coming. Ramos is an "us against them" guy - no doubt about it. He also just had his dream crushed. By a guy in his club, who by all accounts is a very well liked guy who was teammates with Metcalf and Morningstar and is probably good friends with some other high profile Hawkeyes like Alger. There's probably not a lot of middle ground with Ramos there - anybody who is friends with or is coaching Dennis is probably on the other side of the fence to Ramos when it comes to Dennis being his top competition - in light of his loss. I can understand Ramos' feelings here, but do not agree with them.

I can't fault Tom Brands here at all, what is he going to do as the head of the entire program when he has to take a global view of the HWC. Much easier for Terry in his role to be the good guy in Ramos' eyes. The only thing you could say negatively about Tom is that he knows the personality of the athlete he is dealing with - maybe he could have been more proactive in diffusing the situation. But likely there was no solution that would have been satisfactory to Ramos and still been doing what was right as the head man of the club. And most likely, Brands knew this and made the right calls here.

Again, I can understand Ramos' feelings. Don't agree with them and he is wrong for "taking it outside the family." But then again, going by his history, I don't understand how Hawkeye fans would expect Ramos to keep it inhouse if he perceived any slight - real or imaginary - at all. That's just not his style.

The better takes I've read on this don't start from the assumption that if Guy A is right, Guy B is wrong. Both could be right about a few things and in the wrong elsewhere, simultaneously even. Only headline writers need a winner vs loser narrative.

I agree that Tom is generally justified in running the program in the way that he did; Ramos doesn't have an exclusive right to the room at the weight, and I think DD leaving and returning, in comparison to McDonough, is a distinction without a difference. Ramos was probably naive in thinking that he had a right to such exclusivity, regardless of what he was told. Airing his complaints publicly is further indication of naivete, because otherwise he'd have known it would play out poorly for him (it definitely has).

That said, if you credit Ramos' statements as sincere, which I do, Tom seems to have done a bad job of communicating expectations. Maybe they thought they'd never have to confront the implications of a DD Ramos match, much less in the finals; if so, they gambled when they should have been clear about how that match would play out in advance. Maybe part of that calculation was misplaced reliance on Ramos' maturity. Tough to speculate.

I've never been a Ramos fan (and Dennis was clearly going to be a tougher out for opponents in Rio) but I do feel for him because I'm not sure he deserves the degree of derision he's brought on himself. Ultimately, I think this is mostly about blame shifting a huge loss; a loss greatly compounded by the CHA fans cheering for his opponent, someone Ramos looked at as an outsider and prodigal son, rightly or wrongly.
 
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The better takes I've read on this don't start from the assumption that if Guy A is right, Guy B is wrong. Both could be right about a few things and in the wrong elsewhere, simultaneously even. Only headline writers need a winner vs loser narrative.

I agree that Tom is generally justified in running the program in the way that he did; Ramos doesn't have an exclusive right to the room at the weight, and I don't think DD leaving and returning, in comparison to McDonough, is a distinction without a difference. Ramos was probably naive in thinking that he had a right to such exclusivity, regardless of what he was told. Airing his complaints publicly is further indication of naivete, because otherwise he'd have known it would play out poorly for him (it definitely has).

That said, if you credit Ramos' statements as sincere, which I do, Tom seems to have done a bad job of communicating expectations. Maybe they thought they'd never have to confront the implications of a DD Ramos match, much less in the finals; if so, they gambled when they should have been clear about how that match would play out in advance. Maybe part of that calculation was misplaced reliance on Ramos' maturity. Tough to speculate.

I've never been a Ramos fan (and Dennis was clearly going to be a tougher out for opponents in Rio) but I do feel for him because I'm not sure he deserves the degree of derision he's brought on himself. Ultimately, I think this is mostly about blame shifting a huge loss; a loss greatly compounded by the CHA fans cheering for his opponent, someone Ramos looked at as an outsider and prodigal son, rightly or wrongly.

Good post. One thing I'm not sure on (as I stated in my post) is that Brands did a poor job being proactive with the situation, poor job communicating or it was a miscalculation. An alternative theory is that Brands knew that Ramos was becoming unhappy, but also knew what he was dealing with and what it would take to make him happy. And he made the proper calculation in terms of running his club, but one that took this turn because of the final results.
 
Nobody hates anything like I hate Dake.

Jesus, isn't "hate" such an ugly word? I mean, I root against Penn State just on general principle but I sure don't hate you guys. I even pull for a Penn State guy on rare occasions. And to hate Dake? Come on, Dude...
 
Tom , all of these post about ramos , you think he is a PSU wrestler. Tom , we might have to check the roster ha ha.
 
After this I think only Terry hasn't spoken out on the subject.

I remain in the Tom, M* and 110% w Dan dennis.

https://blab.im/tony-hager-potentially-dangerous-at-8pm-with-special-guest-ryan-morningstar

Interesting characterization by Morningstar of why Dennis came to HWC - he says it really wasn't that he was recruited, but rather that - He just had a burning desire to be there.....was completely committed to the kids and to the HWC.....he just had a real desire to be there? - Weird that, but that doesn't line up at all with multiple CREDIBLE reports including from NBC Sports (and Ramos mentioned it in his post-match PC) that Dennis had come to an agreement to with VaTech to go wrestle for their Free Club along with Zedick and St. John AND only Tom Brands making him a counter-offer that was so attractive it was an affront to the longstanding #1 57kg guy at HWC (and the nation for that matter) kept Dennis in the fold at HWC. Morningstar's Pollyanna characterization (mischaracterization likely a better description) is probably a good example of the disingenuousness that so upset Ramos, because it really does not line-up with the facts of the situation that really sparked Ramos' anger regarding the treatment Dennis received from the HWC relative to his own package and treatment.

NBC said the following during their telecast:

VT was inches away from adding Dan Dennis as the third hire last summer. Dennis was ready to come with Zadick and St. John and compete, and Iowa countered with a better offer to keep him home.

Ramos also referenced this in his post-match press conference comments:

“It’s just things like that that shouldn’t be handled like that in that situation. Dennis was on his way out of here to go to Virginia Tech and Tom bent over backwards to bring him back. Why would you do that to your top athlete who is No. 1 on the ladder right now, put him in that situation?”

Somehow Morningstar forgot to mention this when he was talking about Dennis not being recruited to HWC as much as...... just having a strong desire to be at HWC....wanting to help the kids there......and just having a real love for the Hawkeyes and HWC......and nowhere else he wanted to be..... Somehow his comments sound not only a bit pollyanna, but a bit overly self-serving relative to Ramos' view of the situation in regards to HWC giving DD a sweetheart counteroffer to keep him from taking the VaTech deal he had apparently agreed to..
 
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Says this:

Good enough Tom - I'll respect your request....was just pointing out that there are two-sides to every story regardless of whether that comports with the biases of some on here or not.

Then this:
Looks like some people didn't respect your "enough already" request Tom - go figure! Amazed how often the biggest whiner is also the biggest offender yet again.

Then continues to drone on. I promise I'm done singling you out, but the amount of time you have dedicated writing on this Ramos subject has to be incredible.


After this I think only Terry hasn't spoken out on the subject.

I remain in the Tom, M* and 110% w Dan dennis.

https://blab.im/tony-hager-potentially-dangerous-at-8pm-with-special-guest-ryan-morningstar

But I as far as this Dunk I thought so far the Iowa coaching staff has come across very well. I liked when he said if Ramos needs to throw him under the bus he would jump on that grenade for him. You get the sense that he really cares about his friend.
 
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Retweeting is weak sauce and easy.

If tony gives his money, his family gives money or if he goes out and has a car wash with proceeds to DD family now that says something to me.

Otherwise this is PR nothing more.
 
Retweeting is weak sauce and easy.

If tony gives his money, his family gives money or if he goes out and has a car wash with proceeds to DD family now that says something to me.

Otherwise this is PR nothing more.
The easiest thing to have done is nothing. None of us knows if Tony did contribute. In fact if he had given money and broadcast that fact, that would have been highly self serving.
 
Retweeting is weak sauce and easy.

If tony gives his money, his family gives money or if he goes out and has a car wash with proceeds to DD family now that says something to me.

Otherwise this is PR nothing more.
Mike Evans is not impressed either.
 
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I have never liked the attitude and arrogance of Ramos

However

IF they offered more to dennis to come into HWC than Ramos was getting
IF Ramos has to stay due to contractual obligations (Can someone tell me if this is the case?)
IF someone was in Dennis Corner during the Finals match that told Ramos would not be

Then I am on the Ramos Side

Ramos has been wrestling with McDonough for years...That is Iron Sharpening Iron.....Bringing in another top guy at your spot that you never really rolled around with (ex hawkeye or not) can easily have a different effect...Iron getting familiar with Iron.

Edit: I still think Ramos Handled it all wrong
 
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The easiest thing to have done is nothing. None of us knows if Tony did contribute. In fact if he had given money and broadcast that fact, that would have been highly self serving.

I disagree doing nothing would be really hard for TR if this last 72 hrs is insight into who he is. Whether it is front double bis stomping around the mat or a 5 minute trashing of your coaches or a subsequent radio interview were there is no indication of walking it back......it says to me this is and was always about tony.

We can agree to disagree. I'm ok with that.
 
penn state forum and there are 6 pages of the same thing. Almost appears as gossip. How does everyone have the time on their hands to 'care' so much for this....
 
penn state forum and there are 6 pages of the same thing. Almost appears as gossip. How does everyone have the time on their hands to 'care' so much for this....
Ramos couldn't beat AJ Schopp if they wrestled 100 times.
 
I have never liked the attitude and arrogance of Ramos

However

IF they offered more to dennis to come into HWC than Ramos was getting
IF Ramos has to stay due to contractual obligations (Can someone tell me if this is the case?)
IF someone was in Dennis Corner during the Finals match that told Ramos would not be

Then I am on the Ramos Side

Ramos has been wrestling with McDonough for years...That is Iron Sharpening Iron.....Bringing in another top guy at your spot that you never really rolled around with (ex hawkeye or not) can easily have a different effect...Iron getting familiar with Iron.

Edit: I still think Ramos Handled it all wrong

Ramos had been wrestling Dennis for years. DD was in the Iowa room from 2006-2013. Dennis said it in his post interview...he's wrestled Tony 100s of times.
 
Good gosh, the thread that will not die quietly.

Below is what I posted on Tuesday:

My simple request is that folks walk away from this thread, and not post any more responses. It has more than run its course.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
penn state forum and there are 6 pages of the same thing. Almost appears as gossip. How does everyone have the time on their hands to 'care' so much for this....
Good gosh, the thread that will not die quietly.

Below is what I posted on Tuesday:

My simple request is that folks walk away from this thread, and not post any more responses. It has more than run its course.

ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tom - I ask a pertinent question:

Are we going to do Stonehenge next tour?
 
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