How much things have changed ....

[fairgambit]

Reading thru the various threads tboyer bloviates in I notice he talks about Joe's last twenty years of coaching, roughly 1990 thru 2011 as if this is "one period" of time, and that Joe never changed, that things were "static". Very misleading.

Everyone knows the true demarcation line for Joe was '00. Penn State in the '99 season was the consensus preseason No. 1 ranked team in the Country, and held that No. 1 spot until a late season collapse occurred. The players, the coaches, the fanbase, we were all devastated, I remember it well. I don't think Joe ever recovered from it.

So what happened after that fateful '99 season? Jerry Sandusky (DCoordinator) retired, soon to be followed by Fran Gantner (OCoordinator). It appeared that Joe got old overnight, stopped taking risks, lost "the fire in the belly".

Change after change soon followed, in recruiting Penn State stopped recruiting the entire Southeast part of the Country. He then put his son, Jay, in charge of recruiting Ohio, and then pretty much stopped recruiting there, both head scratchers?

Wouldn't initially give Tom Bradley the title of "DCoordinator" until Bradley forced the issue by threatening to leave. He then forced a "zone" defense down Bradley's throat that was always picked apart by the better teams on the schedule.

On offense, instead of a promoting a new OCoordinator Joe employed the famous "two headed monster" that his famous son, Jay, was promoted to.

What do all these decisions have in common? Joe stopped delegating authority, and took more control of every decision to be made. The problem with this? Joe was already and old man, and what do older people do? They stop taking risks, you see it in every day life (older people driving below the speed limit, and causing accidents), or coaching on the football field. We saw it in the defense, the offensive play calling, and in recruiting. Instead of going after the All-American player in Florida, Joe signed the low hanging fruit in Maryland (Larry Johnson). Fewer 4 star players in exchange for 3 star players. You dont beat OSU and Michigan if you dont match them player for player, and we didnt, and lost to them.

The only reason I, painstakenly, lay this out for everyone is because tboyer is being disingenuous when he talks about Joe's last 20 years of coaching. In the '90's Penn State won more games than OSU, a lot of people don't know that, but its true. 1980's and 90's recruiting was off the charts bold and aggressive.

It wasnt until that "hangover" season of '00 when Joe got old seemingly overnight, and stopped taking risks when things began to change, and not necessarily for the better. It is not fair to Joe Paterno conflating the brilliant "younger" Joe to the "older" Joe, not fair at all.

tboyer, you are a punk of the highest order, shame on you. Stop making disingenuous and misleading remarks about Joepa. You have an agenda, and should just STFU.

Interesting post. I agree with some points and not others. I will mention that you use 2000 as the "demarcation line", yet in the 5 seasons from 2005 through 2009, he won 51 games, including 4 of 5 bowl games, and tied for 2 Big Ten titles. I'm off to bed so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Mudge1026]

Interesting post. I agree with some points and not others. I will mention that you use 2000 as the "demarcation line", yet in the 5 seasons from 2005 through 2009, he won 51 games, including 4 of 5 bowl games, and tied for 2 Big Ten titles. I'm off to bed so I'll leave it at that.

I hear what you're saying, but let's put it this way, "We won in spite of Joe not because of Joe".

 

[BrianS]

Eh, what can you do. I merely tried to talk about the ways that the program is in better shape than it's been in about 20 years. Some people get offended, they don't want to hear that, they'd rather dwell on the 70s and tell stories about Jack Ham and Charlie Pittman and the grand experiment, whatever, well great, it was a great time for Penn State football but it was 50 freaking years ago. This might have been the thing that infuriated O'Brien after his 2nd season. People want to live in the past instead of be honest about the present.

Just 8 and 11 years ago, who won the B10 championship? It goes to show the program wasn't in too bad of shape just a few years ago.
I think you hit a nerve referencing Joe. You should have just complimented Franklin on "rebuilding" the program back up to national prominence where it had been for the last 50 years!

 

[Judge Smails]

[QUOTE="Mack_Daddy, post: 2905153, member] If Penn State finishes 9-4 this year after winning The B1G last year, Franklin is on the hot seat.
.[/QUOTE]

Come on. Franklin's extension is 95% done. He will be at Penn State for a very, very long time. One disappointing season, and they will happen, is not and will not effect his job security. This is Penn State, not some seedy SEC school.

Dumb and wrong.

 

[LaJolla Lion]

You know you can like both coaches people.

 

[denniskembala]

Since the inception of athletics at Penn State the student side and the athlete have both been stressed, there is nothing new. In the 30s and 40s Penn State almost de emphasized the athletic side because of the rampant cheating that was occurring at that time much like now. There's a great story about it on the Penn State site.

Boyer's weak attempt at trolling is a fail.

 

[Hotshoe]

All I'll say is many obviously don't understand the influence Joe had on the game of football. Ask Urban Meyer, he knows, and doesn't use the term Joebot. If you want to praise, then praise the current staff. There was zero need to degrade others with labeling, and it destroys one's position when you do.

 

[marshall23]

All I'll say is many obviously don't understand the influence Joe had on the game of football. Ask Urban Meyer, he knows, and doesn't use the term Joebot. If you want to praise, then praise the current staff. There was zero need to degrade others with labeling, and it destroys ones position when you do.

Someone takes a shot at Joe and the usual slimy snakes come out of their den. Including the "dark years" from 99 on Joe was 102 and 56 and 4 and 3 in bowls. The reality is that no one can prove that someone else could have done better. Programs do have ebb and flow. Alabama had some issues between Bear and Saban. That's history and its all part of JVP's tenure at PSU. Let's see what the next 10 or 11 years bring.

 

[Omar81]

You could easily have made your points about Franklin and what's happening at PSU now without demeaning the past, but for reasons known only to you you took cheap (and idiotic) shots at that storied past. That is on you. Calling out "Joebots" (an obnoxious and offensive term) dug the hole deeper, and you continue to dig because apparently you can't help yourself. I love what Franklin is doing -- but what he is doing is a continuation of what Joe created: Success with Honor, preparing young people for life while also having success on the football field. If you can't see that he is following Joe's lead, then you are beyond pathetic.

Wow, I'm really going to get in trouble now. People always trot out the bowl record. Paterno's bowl record is unmatched because he went to more second tier bowls than anybody else. He went to 14 bowls during his time in the Big Ten. 10 of those bowls were Orlando, Tampa and San Antonio, where he was usually matched against the 3rd or fourth place team in the SEC. It was awesome for Penn State fans because it got to the point where they could buy their airline tickets to Orlando six months ahead of time and save money.

During that same time PSU went to two Rose Bowls, which is one more than Northwestern and Purdue and Illinois. Wisconsin went to six Rose Bowls during PSU's time in the B10 (and usually with a lot less talent than Paterno had) but nobody calls Alvarez and Bielema a legend.

Yeah, PSU really wacked Tennessee, and I enjoyed those games immensely, but it was when Tennesee wasn't the SEC champ. He also beat Auburn in the mud -- another satisfying game - when Auburn wasn't the SEC champ. Joe's record against actual conference champs -- PAC-10 or SEC -- isn't so great.

I know it's emotional for people but people should appreciate the record for what it is and not try to inflate it into something it wasn't.

What Franklin is doing is good. It's not disrespectful to Paterno in any way. But it does have the potential to be better. To me that's exciting and a good thing.

 

[PSU Soupy]

Sorry, talking about "state of the art" coaching when you give up 31+ pts in five different games is just ridiculous. Losing games when you score 39 pts & 49 pts is just plain pathetic.

That is why Saban is such a bad coach when Alabama give us 35 and 40 in the last two championship games........

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

We were lucky to have Joe. We are lucky to have Franklin.

To say that Joe didn't lose a step from 2000 onward is false. To say that Franklin can't coach and is a used car salesman is false.

To rationalize Jay as an OC or the 2-headed monster OC as a good idea is ridiculous. To overlook the ridicousness of John Donovan at OC is equally ridiculous.

It's just fine to love & appreciate both coaches. It's also fine to call out some shortcomings of them too.

 

[marshall23]

We were lucky to have Joe. We are lucky to have Franklin.

To say that Joe didn't lose a step from 2000 onward is false. To say that Franklin can't coach and is a used car salesman is false.

To rationalize Jay as an OC or the 2-headed monster OC as a good idea is ridiculous. To overlook the ridicousness of John Donovan at OC is equally ridiculous.

It's just fine to love & appreciate both coaches. It's also fine to call out some shortcomings of them too.

I could agree as long as we all acknowledge that JVP and JF go(went) to bed at night and as they sleep they forget more about coaching than we will ever know. That's why we are posting and they are cashing(cashed) multi million dollar checks.

 

[bdgan]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they wore a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

Regarding facilities... Beaver Stadium needs some work but it has always been one of the top venues in the nation. Holuba Hall was one of the best practice facilities in the country when it was built. Same with the Lasch building. I don't think PSU has ever lagged when it comes to facilities except for the fact that some parts started to get old about 10 years ago and needed refurbishment (especially technology).

Regarding recruiting... Opponents definitely used Joe's age against him and his inability to travel really hurt. The offset was Joe's (and PSU's) reputation. PSU was probably going to have a top 5 class in 2012 until the JS mess ruined everything.

 

[bdgan]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

Most people agree that what's happening now is special. But it's not top 5 special and it's not as though PSU hasn't been pretty special in the past. Remember, PSU won B1G titles in 2005 & 2008. Many will agree that Joe stayed too long and Jay didn't belong in his position but we had many excellent assistant coaches like Bradley, LJ, etc.

There's no doubt that Franklin has brought new and much needed energy to the program. I like that he's still focused on academics. I don't like what seems to be over recruiting (we'll see how that goes). I like that facilities are being modernized to keep up with other elite teams but those facilities were once elite until they aged.

The bottom line is wins and losses. PSU in the past was a perennial top 20 team except for the dark years (2000-2004). Let's see how the team does going forward. I agree it's looking pretty good.

 

[maxxedout]

This is actually a refreshing thread and a good read. This conversation needs to happen for us to fully understand joe's legacy and the direction of the program.

 

[Mack_Daddy]

[QUOTE="Mack_Daddy, post: 2905153, member] If Penn State finishes 9-4 this year after winning The B1G last year, Franklin is on the hot seat.
.

Come on. Franklin's extension is 95% done. He will be at Penn State for a very, very long time. One disappointing season, and they will happen, is not and will not effect his job security. This is Penn State, not some seedy SEC school.

Dumb and wrong.[/QUOTE]

You OBVIOUSLY haven't been following Penn State since Nov 2011.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Most people agree that what's happening now is special. But it's not top 5 special and it's not as though PSU hasn't been pretty special in the past. Remember, PSU won B1G titles in 2005 & 2008. Many will agree that Joe stayed too long and Jay didn't belong in his position but we had many excellent assistant coaches like Bradley, LJ, etc.

There's no doubt that Franklin has brought new and much needed energy to the program. I like that he's still focused on academics. I don't like what seems to be over recruiting (we'll see how that goes). I like that facilities are being modernized to keep up with other elite teams but those facilities were once elite until they aged.

The bottom line is wins and losses. PSU in the past was a perennial top 20 team except for the dark years (2000-2004). Let's see how the team does going forward. I agree it's looking pretty good.

I like the post. What do you mean by over recruiting? Surely you want to bring in the very best talent possible, no?

 

[DonP74]

Agree.
Most people consider the Rose, Orange, Cotton, Sugar and Fiesta, major bowls. Joe was was 13-4 in those. He is the only coach to win all 5.

An incredible accomplishment. Please remember he won the Orange, Cotton, Sugar and Fiesta is roughly a 14 year span. He won the Rose the first time he got the team into it. What were the other 128 teams winning in a 15 year span?

 

[Judge Smails]

Come on. Franklin's extension is 95% done. He will be at Penn State for a very, very long time. One disappointing season, and they will happen, is not and will not effect his job security. This is Penn State, not some seedy SEC school.

Dumb and wrong.

You OBVIOUSLY haven't been following Penn State since Nov 2011.[/QUOTE]

He's about to sign an extension, minimum $5 mil a year for 5 years. His current deal runs til 2019 @ $4.5 mil a year.

So he goes 9-4 this year, while pulling in a Top 10 recruiting class, and Penn State eats about $35 million to fire him?

Dumb and wrong.

 

[PSUMATT85]

You bored tonight, @tboyer? Playing a little Jekyll and Hyde.

C'Mon, give the OP a break. He just got caught up in the excitement because PSU has never recruited a 4 star guard before.......

 

[bdgan]

I like the post. What do you mean by over recruiting? Surely you want to bring in the very best talent possible, no?

We always accused other schools of "processing" players. When Joe was coach I think that was pretty much limited to 5th year kids that weren't likely to see meaningful PT. I think that has changed.

I know that scholarships are only guaranteed for 1 year but I think they should be guaranteed for 4 years unless the kid breaks team rules.

 

[ClarkstonMark]

I like the post. What do you mean by over recruiting? Surely you want to bring in the very best talent possible, no?

Yes, but we are clearly recruiting over kids, and some kids will be processed after this season. The numbers don't lie. I'm fine with it btw, but it is what it is.

 

[artsandletters]

Eh, what can you do. I merely tried to talk about the ways that the program is in better shape than it's been in about 20 years. Some people get offended, they don't want to hear that, they'd rather dwell on the 70s and tell stories about Jack Ham and Charlie Pittman and the grand experiment, whatever, well great, it was a great time for Penn State football but it was 50 freaking years ago. This might have been the thing that infuriated O'Brien after his 2nd season. People want to live in the past instead of be honest about the present.

I'm thrilled because the PSU program is alive again in a way it hasn't been for a very long time. I think we can appreciate Paterno for everything he accomplished and at the same time be very frank about the many ways that the program declined, from physical conditioning to position coaching to scheme to players' off the field behavior. The giant was sleeping and it's now waking up, and waking it up takes a tremendous amount of effort and I appreciate Franklin's effort.

In fact the only way you find out how much it had declined is when new coaches come in with 2017 best practices and a ton of energy and start rebuilding. Again, I think the fixation on Joe as the best coach of any sport ever, it's tiresome. It's almost as tiresome as the obsession with the Pitt non-rivalry.

There are better things to talk about. He was a great football coach and a really excellent human being in every way. But he was not a legend, not a god, not a bronze statue, he was a football coach. If that makes me Davey Jones or any of the other various names you want to call me, so be it.

Who cares what O'Brien thought or what infuriated him. He had a cup of coffee at PSU. The coffee was tough to swallow, he had the opportunity he was waiting for, and he left. He did a great job of holding the program together with the help of Mauti, Zordich and others. Other than that, I'm not interested in what infuriated O'Brien (as told to the weasel Jones).

 

[marshall23]

Who cares what O'Brien thought or what infuriated him. He had a cup of coffee at PSU. The coffee was tough to swallow, he had the opportunity he was waiting for, and he left. He did a great job of holding the program together with the help of Mauti, Zordich and others. Other than that, I'm not interested in what infuriated O'Brien (as told to the weasel Jones).

BOB and BOT used one another and deserved one another.

 

[Victor E. Bell]

Once more, all together:

They could have pink-slipped him if they had the balls. Nobody did. They can f-off. All this Paterno selfishness is hilarious. They wanted him here for reasons good or bad, for reasons we may never know. They kept him here. The BOT and the AD can wear it. Not me.

 

[Coultr77]

I am 35 and have never seen PSU play in a national championship game

 

[bdgan]

I am 35 and have never seen PSU play in a national championship game

If you started watching when you were 18 that means 17 years. There have probably been about 10 different national champions during that time and PSU was hindered by sanctions for abut 5 of those years. The good news is that PSU has won 3 B1G titles in the past dozen years in spite of those sanctions.

If your point is that PSU isn't at the same level as Alabama or O$U you are correct. Nor are any other B1G teams.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Wrong!

I agree that Joe stayed too long. I agree that Joe's age was used against him when recruiting. I agree that his illnesses didn't look good. But I completely disagree that kids came to PSU in spite of Joe. A lot of players wanted to play for a legend and the program he built. A lot of parents wanted their kids to play for a coach that believed in success with honor.

Are you implying that Paterno was/is the only coach who believed in "success with honor"?
And why are so many top players signing with PSU now that we no longer have a "legend"
as coach?

 

[bdgan]

Are you implying that Paterno was/is the only coach who believed in "success with honor"?
And why are so many top players signing with PSU now that we no longer have a "legend"
as coach?

I am implying that Paterno ran his program with more integrity and more care for his players beyond football than a vast majority of D1 coaches.

Top players are currently signing with PSU because of the tradition started by Joe, because of great facilities, because of an incredible fan base, and because they believe in coach Franklin and his staff.

 

[indynittany]

...People want to live in the past instead of be honest about the present.....

No, they want to live in the present, but be honest about the past.

 

[SR108]

I'm game with you, as long our players are prepared for life after football. Then it's the win-win situation we are accustomed.

I have no worries in this area at this point. Franklin has been suspending players when needed and he is not afraid to do at any time, with no regard to the importance of what games they miss. I also like the fact that as much as possible, he keeps such situations private. To him it is a family matter that is nobody outside the family's business. So far his players go to class and stay out of trouble or they have faced appropriate consequences.

 

[dbsteel]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

Bingo.

 

[Osprey Lion]

I am implying that Paterno ran his program with more integrity and more care for his players beyond football than a vast majority of D1 coaches.

Top players are currently signing with PSU because of the tradition started by Joe, because of great facilities, because of an incredible fan base, and because they believe in coach Franklin and his staff.

So PSU didn't have "tradition" prior to Paterno?

 

[bdgan]

So PSU didn't have "tradition" prior to Paterno?

Now you're just acting stupid!

 

[kgilbert78]

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

See what I bolded. I think this is the key. We'll know how special in a few years. I hope it will be. But it's not a sure thing.

 

[BBrown]

Sorry Charlie. I'm not here to entertain you with arguments, logical or otherwise.

Your post SUCKED and you are getting KILLED for it.

If you want to get praised and have people agree with you, take it to the Pitt board. They love to talk diarrhea all day long over there.

LOL, somebody better call an ambulance cause Corabi94 just got burned. Well Done Fox.

 

[BBrown]

Once more, all together:

They could have pink-slipped him if they had the balls. Nobody did. They can f-off. All this Paterno selfishness is hilarious. They wanted him here for reasons good or bad, for reasons we may never know. They kept him here. The BOT and the AD can wear it. Not me.

+1000.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Now you're just acting stupid!

So many here act like PSU didn't exist prior to Paterno. He took over a solid program in a talent
rich state with a beautiful campus and a new stadium. He accomplished much but lets not
pretend he wasn't dealt a very good hand.

 

[kgilbert78]

We always accused other schools of "processing" players. When Joe was coach I think that was pretty much limited to 5th year kids that weren't likely to see meaningful PT. I think that has changed.

I know that scholarships are only guaranteed for 1 year but I think they should be guaranteed for 4 years unless the kid breaks team rules.

I thought the Big Ten has done this recently....

 

[BBrown]

So many here act like PSU didn't exist prior to Paterno. He took over a solid program in a talent
rich state with a beautiful campus and a new stadium. He accomplished much but lets not
pretend he wasn't dealt a very good hand.

Well, Rip was 5-5 in his final season. Many today would claim that is not a "solid" program and seeing as how you and your other BOT buddy think Joes final years were a failure then I'm guessing you would be one of them.
And what was the "New" stadium?