How much things have changed ....

[tboyer]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they wore a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

 

[step.eng69]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they were a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

I'm game with you, as long our players are prepared for life after football. Then it's the win-win situation we are accustomed.

 

[Ceasar]

I will very respectfully disagree with your premise. PSU very rarely recruited players the caliber of Juice? How did JVP win 409 games? Ham, Reid, Smear, Onkotz, Kates, Kwalick, Fusina, Suhey, Clark, Millen, Blackledge, Jackson. Warner, McCloskey, Carter, McDuffie, Collins, Engram, Conlin, Hartings, Munchak, Farrell, Levi Brown, Donovan Smith, Quarless, McGloin, Roystet, Robinson, Hull, Mauti, Still, Urschel.... could go on and on.
Take a look at PSUs record in Joe's final 50-55 games. It's pretty good. Now, if the point is James Franklin, in his prime, is recruiting better than
PSU has in years, undeniably true. But from 2008-2011 Penn State was a very solid program and a lot of very good players came through Happy Valley.

 

[AWS1022]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they were a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

I agree with the offensive coaching being unlike any we've seen in the past. We've obviously had great talent on offense over the years, but other than '94, '05 and '08 we were hardly dynamic. But I disagree with the defensive coaching. Joe won 409 games largely due to great defenses year after year. The defense last year was not great and has a ways to go to be anywhere near many of the defenses of the past. We went from LBU to linebacker being one of our biggest areas of concern. I love the recruiting, but we need to get better on defense.

 

[fairgambit]

I will very respectfully disagree with your premise. PSU very rarely recruited players the caliber of Juice? How did JVP win 409 games? Ham, Reid, Smear, Onkotz, Kates, Kwalick, Fusina, Suhey, Clark, Millen, Blackledge, Jackson. Warner, McCloskey, Carter, McDuffie, Collins, Engram, Conlin, Hartings, Munchak, Farrell, Levi Brown, Donovan Smith, Quarless, McGloin, Roystet, Robinson, Hull, Mauti, Still, Urschel.... could go on and on.
Take a look at PSUs record in Joe's final 50-55 games. It's pretty good. Now, if the point is James Franklin, in his prime, is recruiting better than
PSU has in years, undeniably true. But from 2008-2011 Penn State was a very solid program and a lot of very good players came through Happy Valley.

Agree. You don't average 9 wins a year for 46 years with substandard coaching.

 

[Option Bob]

I will very respectfully disagree with your premise. PSU very rarely recruited players the caliber of Juice? How did JVP win 409 games? Ham, Reid, Smear, Onkotz, Kates, Kwalick, Fusina, Suhey, Clark, Millen, Blackledge, Jackson. Warner, McCloskey, Carter, McDuffie, Collins, Engram, Conlin, Hartings, Munchak, Farrell, Levi Brown, Donovan Smith, Quarless, McGloin, Roystet, Robinson, Hull, Mauti, Still, Urschel.... could go on and on.
Take a look at PSUs record in Joe's final 50-55 games. It's pretty good. Now, if the point is James Franklin, in his prime, is recruiting better than
PSU has in years, undeniably true. But from 2008-2011 Penn State was a very solid program and a lot of very good players came through Happy Valley.

I agree with you 100%, Ceasar. I am not sure how someone who claims to be a fan for 50 years can miss all the NFL OL that came through Penn State. Certainly, the talent level from 2000-2015 was vastly different from the talent levels from 1967-1999. Coaching, too. But to make statements that Penn State has never had talent like this before is, quite simply, absurd.

Perhaps I have been among James Franklin's most avid supporters. IMO, he just flat out "gets it" about all things Penn State Football. He is restoring the Lions to national prominence, and he is doing 1 thing previous regimes didn't (IMO) -- build an elite secondary.

But in those first 30 years or so, Penn State wasn't a national power despite having poor talent or poor coaches; it was a powerhouse because it had good talent and good coaches.

 

[fairgambit]

I agree with you 100%, Ceasar. I am not sure how someone who claims to be a fan for 50 years can miss all the NFL OL that came through Penn State. Certainly, the talent level from 2000-2015 was vastly different from the talent levels from 1967-1999. Coaching, too. But to make statements that Penn State has never had talent like this before is, quite simply, absurd.

Perhaps I have been among James Franklin's most avid supporters. IMO, he just flat out "gets it" about all things Penn State Football. He is restoring the Lions to national prominence, and he is doing 1 thing previous regimes didn't (IMO) -- build an elite secondary.

But in those first 30 years or so, Penn State wasn't a national power despite having poor talent or poor coaches; it was a powerhouse because it had good talent and good coaches.

Over 360 Penn State players signed NFL contracts during Joe's tenure. I often heard comments on draft day that "Penn State players come out ready for the NFL." They did not develop on their own. It was coaching.

 

[tboyer]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

 

[tboyer]

I agree with the offensive coaching being unlike any we've seen in the past. We've obviously had great talent on offense over the years, but other than '94, '05 and '08 we were hardly dynamic. But I disagree with the defensive coaching. Joe won 409 games largely due to great defenses year after year. The defense last year was not great and has a ways to go to be anywhere near many of the defenses of the past. We went from LBU to linebacker being one of our biggest areas of concern. I love the recruiting, but we need to get better on defense.

I think the defensive position coaching is state of the art. But -- and this has been discussed on this board -- its an area where the talent on the roster, and esp. the depth, is not up to what PSU had when Vanderlinden and Johnson were here. It has taken longer to stock first rate DL and LB, but they are getting them now, and each year we'll see more of them in the rotation. Just one player for example -- Manny Bowen. Very good recruit. In the middle of all the craziness last year, he was made a starter very early and by the end of the season he really had a handle on it. That's good coaching.

 

[Obliviax]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

Two things: things are different. Cable TV and high speed internet have changed everything. College football is no different. Joe won back when the paradigm was different but he also won against teams like Miami, Tenn, and the rest of the elite teams at the time. His bowl record is unmatched. What CJF did last year and this year is fantastic, but its just different.

Second, last year was one year. The year before, we had an AWFUL offensive coordinator and got lucky we got on the the best true freshmen the nation. Without Barkley, we'd have been around .500. The sanctions were a big part of that as well. But CJF has to sustain. Will he or won't he? IDK, that's why you play the games. But lets not get carried away....yet.

 

[BobPSU92]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

If you respect Penn State, Penn Staters, and Joe Paterno, please don't call people Joebots.

 

[Ceasar]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

I agree with you that what is happening now is special. My objection was the comment that PSU had "rarely" recruited players the caliber of Juice Scruggs. PSU recruited many highly regarded players in Joe's last 5-10 years. That's not worshipping Joe or being a Joebot. It's a fact. Some of those recruits turned out very well - Hull, Poz, Levi Brown, Wisniewski, Quarless, Mauti, Lowrey, Hali, and many more. Others, like Logan-El and Chris Bell, didn't turn out real well.
In the 70's and 80's and even much of the 90s recruiting was not as "refined". There were no 7 on 7's and Elite 11's and "openings" so we didn't hype kids the way we do now. But that does not mean those kids who PSU recruited were not pretty good.
All that said, yes, Franklin is killing it and it reminds me of the way Joe killed it all the way through circa 1999 (when we went into November challenging for a MNC). No reason we can't applaud both the past and present. That is what other big time programs do.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Sorry, talking about "state of the art" coaching when you give up 31+ pts in five different games is just ridiculous. Losing games when you score 39 pts & 49 pts is just plain pathetic.

 

[fairgambit]

If you respect Penn State, Penn Staters, and Joe Paterno, please don't call people Joebots.

I agree. I find the term offensive. To be honest, it pisses me off.

 

[jimarnp]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they wore a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

Completely agree......but not shocked. --- Met and spoke with Franklin several times 2-3 years ago while he was recruiting an athlete . The athlete's family and I were talking with him about the whole experience.........including academics, expectations, and goals. One of his goals/ gaurentee s was " in three to four years, we will be on par with with Alabama"......and went on relating that Alabama will eventually want to be us. He was THAT confident and that focused. -----This guy is on a mission, and I'm glad we have him.

 

[Option Bob]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

Unless you are referring to someone I have on "ignore," I guess you are referencing my post above in response to Ceasar. It is unnecessary and unseemly to label me (or any others who still hold Joe Paterno in high esteem) a "Joebot, a term Dave Jones coined to slam those who respect(ed) the man. Such pettiness should be below you.


He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

I have never "worshipped" Joe Paterno or any other human being. Such labeling is, once again, a slur at those who respect(ed) Joe. I doubt anyone worshipped Paterno as a deity. But millions of people have great admiration for great human beings, and Joe was a great human being ... no one likely thought of him as a god. Your reference to the so-called "cult" is straight out of Jones and Pitt fans. Continuing to fight injustice is anything but cultish.


But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

You apparently glossed over my remarks separating 1967-99 from 2000-2015. Reread them and then you can talk about honesty.


Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

You claim to be a PSU fan for 50 years, yet you make the totally wrong assertion that Penn State had "no scholarship limits" in the 70s. Goodness gracious. Penn State, along with Pitt, WVa, and other "East Indies" agreed to a limit of scholarships per year, broken by Pitt's Johnny Majors in 1973. Paterno never signed huge classes the way SEC and SWC schools did, often reaching 50 scholarships per year. Read Ridge Riley's book about Joe for more details of this agreement.


You say there were only "6 or 8 really state of the art [sic] programs in the whole country then ...." Texas, Arkansas, OU, Nebraska, Alabama, LSU, Tennessee, Florida, Notre Dame, USC, Ohio State ... I'll stop here since I can't bring myself to type M-i-c- ... and I've already passed 8.


In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.


You are actually trying to tell us genuine Penn State fans that Penn State "overall ... was never going to threaten Michigan and Ohio State"? Seriously? Look at Penn State's entrance into Big Ten games. Penn State nearly dominated the league until Dick Honig and Crew stepped in to save the wolverines. And you're asserting that guys like Cooper and Moeller were better coaches than Joe Paterno in the early 90s? There is simply no way to debate nonsense.


I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.


Boy, I'm sure glad you weren't negative. Had you been, you might have given the Pitt trolls a run for their money.


But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

Well, I am not a poster on a level with many on here, but I have a history of defending James Franklin and of praising his restoration of the Lion program. But I am definitely not naive enough to say that what is happening was never "seen in the Big Ten era." I think those 1993-96 teams were sensational, loaded with talent, and as good as any other program in the country. Perhaps you have forgotten the routs of Tennessee, Oregon, Auburn, and Texas in major bowls in PSU's first 4 seasons in the Big Ten. Or don't you count the "good years" as part of your "Big Ten era"?


I normally don't get this riled up, but those "Joebot" and "cult" comments set me off.

 

[fairgambit]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

I don't understand why it is necessary to demean the success of the past in order to appreciate the success of the present. It's OK to enjoy both.

 

[BobPSU92]

I agree. I find the term offensive. To be honest, it pisses me off.

I'm right there with you. People who use the term obviously don't have a handle on who We Are or what we believe.

 

[BobPSU92]

I don't understand why it is necessary to demean the success of the past in order to appreciate the success of the present. It's OK to enjoy both.

Of course. It's like we couldn't like Joe and O'Brien. Duh.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Glad to see Vic Surma has joined the board. Thanks for your intelligent input there Vic.

By the way, how's your brother? Give him my regards.

 

[tboyer]

His bowl record is unmatched

Wow, I'm really going to get in trouble now. People always trot out the bowl record. Paterno's bowl record is unmatched because he went to more second tier bowls than anybody else. He went to 14 bowls during his time in the Big Ten. 10 of those bowls were Orlando, Tampa and San Antonio, where he was usually matched against the 3rd or fourth place team in the SEC. It was awesome for Penn State fans because it got to the point where they could buy their airline tickets to Orlando six months ahead of time and save money.

During that same time PSU went to two Rose Bowls, which is one more than Northwestern and Purdue and Illinois. Wisconsin went to six Rose Bowls during PSU's time in the B10 (and usually with a lot less talent than Paterno had) but nobody calls Alvarez and Bielema a legend.

Yeah, PSU really wacked Tennessee, and I enjoyed those games immensely, but it was when Tennesee wasn't the SEC champ. He also beat Auburn in the mud -- another satisfying game - when Auburn wasn't the SEC champ. Joe's record against actual conference champs -- PAC-10 or SEC -- isn't so great.

I know it's emotional for people but people should appreciate the record for what it is and not try to inflate it into something it wasn't.

What Franklin is doing is good. It's not disrespectful to Paterno in any way. But it does have the potential to be better. To me that's exciting and a good thing.

 

[marshall23]

I recently purchased a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I love it. Driving my new Jeep is more enjoyable than the 2014 Grand Cherokee that had 54000 miles on it when I traded in. The 2014 Jeep, when new, was more enjoyable to drive than the Acura TSX I traded in to get the jeep. The Acura, may have been the most exciting car I ever drove off the lot..................
You play to win the game....and NO ONE ever won more than JVP.
I am so thankful to have James Franklin as our coach. I would not trade him for any current coach in the nation.
James has a long way to go before any sane person begins to compare his career to JVP.

 

[marshall23]

Wow, I'm really going to get in trouble now. People always trot out the bowl record. Paterno's bowl record is unmatched because he went to more second tier bowls than anybody else. He went to 14 bowls during his time in the Big Ten. 10 of those bowls were Orlando, Tampa and San Antonio, where he was usually matched against the 3rd or fourth place team in the SEC. It was awesome for Penn State fans because it go to the point where they could buy their airline tickets to Orlando six months ahead of time and save money.

During that same time PSU went to two Rose Bowls, which is one more than Northwestern and Purdue and Illinois. Wisconsin went to six Rose Bowls during PSU's time in the B10 (and usually with a lot less talent than Paterno had) but nobody calls Alvarez and Bielema a legend.

Yeah, PSU really wacked Tennessee, and I enjoyed those games immensely, but it was when Tennesee wasn't the SEC champ. He also beat Auburn in the mud -- another satisfying game - when Auburn wasn't the SEC champ. Joe's record against actual conference champs -- PAC-10 or SEC -- isn't so great.

I know it's emotional for people but people should appreciate the record for what it is and not try to inflate it into something it wasn't.

What Franklin is doing is good. It's not disrespectful to Paterno in any way. But it does have the potential to be better. To me that's exciting and a good thing.

Yes and every child born in the United States has the potential to be president.
I'll wait a few more years and we'll compare JF's first 10 years to Joe"s first 10 years.

 

[Madsol]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

Wow, you really are a condescending little prick aren't you? Screw you. Have a nice night.

 

[marshall23]

I don't understand why it is necessary to demean the success of the past in order to appreciate the success of the present. It's OK to enjoy both.

Agreed and its a fool's task. Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson or Ali? Champions. Period. Champions.

 

[Ceasar]

Wow, I'm really going to get in trouble now. People always trot out the bowl record. Paterno's bowl record is unmatched because he went to more second tier bowls than anybody else. He went to 14 bowls during his time in the Big Ten. 10 of those bowls were Orlando, Tampa and San Antonio, where he was usually matched against the 3rd or fourth place team in the SEC. It was awesome for Penn State fans because it got to the point where they could buy their airline tickets to Orlando six months ahead of time and save money.

During that same time PSU went to two Rose Bowls, which is one more than Northwestern and Purdue and Illinois. Wisconsin went to six Rose Bowls during PSU's time in the B10 (and usually with a lot less talent than Paterno had) but nobody calls Alvarez and Bielema a legend.

Yeah, PSU really wacked Tennessee, and I enjoyed those games immensely, but it was when Tennesee wasn't the SEC champ. He also beat Auburn in the mud -- another satisfying game - when Auburn wasn't the SEC champ. Joe's record against actual conference champs -- PAC-10 or SEC -- isn't so great.

I know it's emotional for people but people should appreciate the record for what it is and not try to inflate it into something it wasn't.

What Franklin is doing is good. It's not disrespectful to Paterno in any way. But it does have the potential to be better. To me that's exciting and a good thing.

You seem to only want to focus on Joe age 70-80+. Joe won multiple Orange Bowls over Big 12 champs; Cotton Bowls over SWC champs; Fuesta Bowls over ND, TX, USC, Rose Bowl over PAC 10 champ. So he did win bowl games other than the Outback or Citrus Bowls. Throw out every bowl other than Fiesta, Orange, Sugar and Cotton and see what Joe's record was.

 

[Mack_Daddy]

Juice Scruggs got me thinking this morning about the PSU program and how different it is from the PSU program I followed for the better part of 50 years.

Recruiting, coaching, training, facilities, leadership -- every single part of it is state of the art now. Every unit on the team is coached by experienced people who know what they're doing -- no more promoting grad students whose only credential is they wore a PSU uniform, no more PSU lifers whose best days are decades behind them. No more coaches' sons.

What happened with the OL last year -- looking back, it was really incredible how fast Limegrover developed some good athletes into real Big Ten quality guards and tackles. Mahon, McGovern, Bates, Wright, Gonzo -- it wasn't just 1 or 2 developing -- they ALL developed. It's one of the most amazing feats of position coaching I've ever seen.

Offensive coaching -- we saw in 2012 what happens when good offensive coaching is applied to some quality players like ARob, Kyle Carter and of course Hack. All of a sudden Big Ten defenses end up with their players in the wrong place, and receivers are wide open, and it looks easy. It's coaching. With Moorhead on board the offensive scheme is state of the art again.

Defensive coaching -- not as much of a transformation because PSU defensive coaching -- at least the front seven, with Vanderlinden and Johnson -- already was state of the art. But now, year by year, the talent and depth level on is going to rise -- and, at least in the secondary, it is going to be a higher talent level than we've ever seen before at PSU.

But anyway back to my point. I was wondering if this would be another one of those Penn State seasons that begins with sky high expectations and ends up 9-4 -- and the Outback Bowl.

But I looked at Juice Scruggs -- the kind of player Penn State rarely was able to recruit before -- and I think not. It looks to me like the whole program is reaching a new base level. The expectations are higher from players and coaches. They really do want to challenge Michigan and Ohio State. If the Big Ten lets them, they will.

What is your point?

Are you implying that the cfb landscape is the same now as it was, say, in 1993? 1968?

Coach Franklin won't last UNLESS he's a winner on the field. What would happen if he has one winning season in five years (e.g., Paterno 2000-2004)? If Penn State finishes 9-4 this year after winning The B1G last year, Franklin is on the hot seat.

All you did was share how Penn State is no longer a COLLEGE football team, but a college FOOTBALL team - no different than all the other Tom, Dick and Harry's of cfb.

I've always been a proponent of hiring the best guy for a job, too. But, name one corporation that does that. Name one? Hollywood? Nope. The United States Government? Nope. There aren't any.

 

[fairgambit]

You seem to only want to focus on Joe age 70-80+. Joe won multiple Orange Bowls over Big 12 champs; Cotton Bowls over SWC champs; Fuesta Bowls over ND, TX, USC, Rose Bowl over PAC 10 champ. So he did win bowl games other than the Outback or Citrus Bowls. Throw out every bowl other than Fiesta, Orange, Sugar and Cotton and see what Joe's record was.

Agree.
Most people consider the Rose, Orange, Cotton, Sugar and Fiesta, major bowls. Joe was was 13-4 in those. He is the only coach to win all 5.

 

[marshall23]

Agree.
Most people consider the Rose, Orange, Cotton, Sugar and Fiesta, major bowls. Joe was was 13-4 in those. He is the only coach to win all 5.

Don't confuse him with the facts.
I'm done.....it never pays to engage in a pissing contest with a skunk.

 

[Madsol]

Done confuse him with the facts.
I'm done.....it never pays to engage in a pissing contest with a skunk.

I've read enough of tboyer's posts to know that he LOVES to show how smart he thinks he is. Tonight, he added douchebaggery to his repertoire. Tough combination to stomach.

 

[Bob78]

It's not just Penn State that changed and evolved, it is all of college football. All coaches with at least some degree of success approach things differently than they did even 10 to 15 years ago out of sheer necessity. Offensive strategies have evolved, defenses have adapted, and the distinction between the good teams and the bad teams is based in recruiting and coaching. Physical training has evolved, nutrition has, etc.

As to the cheap shot about Jay..... Lots of coaches have their sons on their staffs; a good number have co-Coords on either O or D. Go through any preseason mag and you'll see plenty of Co-Coords. Look into many staffs at all levels, and you'll see plenty of assistant coaches with the same last name as the HC. I think many PSU fans don't realize this because all they really follow is PSU. Follow all of college football, and the story is broader and different than one might think.

Putting where we are now by comparing it to Joe is a misplaced comparison. Did you compare Joe's PSU against Rip Engle's? Of course not.... the game was changing, and by the way, JVP was at the cutting edge of many of those changes. Paterno evolved with the game, and led some of the evolution. And let us not downplay that he had good-to-great seasons in his final stretch run. While he could not physically recruit in the last few seasons, but his staff recruited very well. Compare PSU to other programs through the final years of his tenure, not vs. where we are now. You're right - it was really good, even great, and superior in the most important way: Success With Honor. We were spoiled, and we were lucky as fans. Yes, he probably should have stepped away earlier, but we're lucky to have had him for the whole of his time.

We are lucky to have a Coach in Franklin who gets it, who has boundless energy and drive and a personality to support all that he wants and needs to accomplish in this age of college football. He has Ohio State and Michigan staring him in the face each season.... that's daunting, and he's doing great vs. that challenge. Compare us now to other programs now, we're ahead of most and it will be a constant struggle to keep that pace. I'm very happy to have CJF leading us into those challenges for a long, long time to come.

 

[Option Bob]

Don't confuse him with the facts.
I'm done.....it never pays to engage in a pissing contest with a skunk.

I'm with you, marshall 23. It does appear tboyer has been "Jonesed."

 

[fairgambit]

Don't confuse him with the facts.
I'm done.....it never pays to engage in a pissing contest with a skunk.

I'm done too. The guy wanted to praise Coach Franklin and that's fine, but to do it he found it necessary to degrade the successes of the past and that was despicable.

 

[marshall23]

RESPECT is NOT conditional. My Dad never went to college. Instead he learned all he needed to know in France, Belgium and Germany circa 1943-45. When he returned home he worked 60 hours a week to make his business a success. I was privileged to receive a college education thanks to his sacrifice and exemplary life. My sons (both now in their 30's) have already done more things and are earning salaries I never dreamed of. If one is fortunate in life, this is how things progress.
James Franklin is building on Joe Paterno's rock solid foundation. I can't imagine comparing them. They are part of the same family.

 

[fairgambit]

RESPECT is NOT conditional. My Dad never went to college. Instead he learned all he needed to know in France, Belgium and Germany circa 1943-45. When he returned home he worked 60 hours a week to make his business a success. I was privileged to receive a college education thanks to his sacrifice and exemplary life. My sons (both now in their 30's) have already done more things and are earning salaries I never dreamed of. If one is fortunate in life, this is how things progress.
James Franklin is building on Joe Paterno's rock solid foundation. I can't imagine comparing them. They are part of the same family.

Good post.

 

[tboyer]

Eh, what can you do. I merely tried to talk about the ways that the program is in better shape than it's been in about 20 years. Some people get offended, they don't want to hear that, they'd rather dwell on the 70s and tell stories about Jack Ham and Charlie Pittman and the grand experiment, whatever, well great, it was a great time for Penn State football but it was 50 freaking years ago. This might have been the thing that infuriated O'Brien after his 2nd season. People want to live in the past instead of be honest about the present.

I'm thrilled because the PSU program is alive again in a way it hasn't been for a very long time. I think we can appreciate Paterno for everything he accomplished and at the same time be very frank about the many ways that the program declined, from physical conditioning to position coaching to scheme to players' off the field behavior. The giant was sleeping and it's now waking up, and waking it up takes a tremendous amount of effort and I appreciate Franklin's effort.

In fact the only way you find out how much it had declined is when new coaches come in with 2017 best practices and a ton of energy and start rebuilding. Again, I think the fixation on Joe as the best coach of any sport ever, it's tiresome. It's almost as tiresome as the obsession with the Pitt non-rivalry.

There are better things to talk about. He was a great football coach and a really excellent human being in every way. But he was not a legend, not a god, not a bronze statue, he was a football coach. If that makes me Davey Jones or any of the other various names you want to call me, so be it.

 

[ChiTownLion]

You bored tonight, @tboyer? Playing a little Jekyll and Hyde.

 

[delcoLion]

Can't post about how good things are without bringing out the Joebots. Ok, I loved Joe. I met him when I was in the 4th grade in State College - at the time he was the hottest coach in college football, but he spent an afternoon with neighborhood kids running a little football clinic in Sunset Park right next to his house.

He was a wonderful coach and a wonderful human being. I worshipped Joe. Which I now know was wrong. Respect is good, but worship is unhealthy. It became a personality cult at PSU and still is.

But back to the program. Let's not deceive ourselves about the difference between the Paterno program the last 20 years and the way things are now. Let's be honest. It's a vast difference.

Recruiting -- yeah in the 70s Joe vacuumed up 75% of the best prospects in the Northeast. I get that. But there were only 6 or 8 really state of the art programs in the whole country then, and no scholarship limits. So let's not compare PSU today (or any team) to 1974.

In the Big Ten era, Joe had super recruiting success at times, at certain positions, and sometimes he had some overwhelming talent. But overall, the program was never going to seriously threaten MIchigan and Ohio State, and coaching-wise PSU didn't challenge Ohio State (Michigan's another story). Position coaching at PSU was good for some units, weak for other units, and the weakness is why PSU lost a lot of games to teams like NW and Iowa who really shouldn't have been beating PSU with the players Joe had.

I don't want to get negative. It was what it was, and it was really good. It was fine going to second-tier Orlando bowls almost every year.

But you people are deceiving yourself if you say what is happening now is nothing special. What's happening at Penn State now is something we have definitely not seen in the Big Ten era. I'm not saying PSU is going to go undefeated or anything -- this is still a work in process. It has several more years to play out before we really know where it's going. But all the signs are really really good. I guess that's saying the obvious.

It's great but I've seen it before around here.

V/r,
Joebot, AKA delcoLion

 

[fairgambit]

Eh, what can you do. I merely tried to talk about the ways that the program is in better shape than it's been in about 20 years. Some people get offended, they don't want to hear that, they'd rather dwell on the 70s and tell stories about Jack Ham and Charlie Pittman and the grand experiment, whatever, well great, it was a great time for Penn State football but it was 50 freaking years ago. This might have been the thing that infuriated O'Brien after his 2nd season. People want to live in the past instead of be honest about the present.

I'm thrilled because the PSU program is alive again in a way it hasn't been for a very long time. I think we can appreciate Paterno for everything he accomplished and at the same time be very frank about the many ways that the program declined, from physical conditioning to position coaching to scheme to players' off the field behavior. The giant was sleeping and it's now waking up, and waking it up takes a tremendous amount of effort and I appreciate Franklin's effort.

In fact the only way you find out how much it had declined is when new coaches come in with 2017 best practices and a ton of energy and start rebuilding. Again, I think the fixation on Joe as the best coach of any sport ever, it's tiresome. It's almost as tiresome as the obsession with the Pitt non-rivalry.

There are better things to talk about. He was a great football coach and a really excellent human being in every way. But he was not a legend, not a god, not a bronze statue, he was a football coach. If that makes me Davey Jones or any of the other various names you want to call me, so be it.

I was going to let this drop, but then I read this bit of wisdom. " But he was not a legend...."
There appears to be at least one, fairly respected, college football mind who disagrees with you.

 

[Mudge1026]

Reading thru the various threads tboyer bloviates in I notice he talks about Joe's last twenty years of coaching, roughly 1990 thru 2011 as if this is "one period" of time, and that Joe never changed, that things were "static". Very misleading.

Everyone knows the true demarcation line for Joe was '00. Penn State in the '99 season was the consensus preseason No. 1 ranked team in the Country, and held that No. 1 spot until a late season collapse occurred. The players, the coaches, the fanbase, we were all devastated, I remember it well. I don't think Joe ever recovered from it.

So what happened after that fateful '99 season? Jerry Sandusky (DCoordinator) retired, soon to be followed by Fran Gantner (OCoordinator). It appeared that Joe got old overnight, stopped taking risks, lost "the fire in the belly".

Change after change soon followed, in recruiting Penn State stopped recruiting the entire Southeast part of the Country. He then put his son, Jay, in charge of recruiting Ohio, and then pretty much stopped recruiting there, too, both head scratchers?

Wouldn't initially give Tom Bradley the title of "DCoordinator" until Bradley forced the issue by threatening to leave. He then forced a "zone" defense down Bradley's throat that was always picked apart by the better teams on the schedule.

On offense, instead of a promoting a new OCoordinator Joe employed the famous "two headed monster" that his famous son, Jay, was promoted to.

What do all these decisions have in common? Joe stopped delegating authority, and took more control of the decision making process. The problem with this? Joe was already and old man, and what do older people do? They stop taking risks, you see it in every day life (older people driving below the speed limit, and causing accidents), or coaching on the football field. We saw it by the way we played defense, in the offensive play calling, and in recruiting. Instead of going after the All-American player in Florida, Joe signed the low hanging fruit in Maryland (Larry Johnson). Fewer 4 star players in exchange for 3 star players. You dont beat OSU and Michigan if you dont match them player for player, and we didnt, and lost to them.

The only reason I, painstakenly, lay this out for everyone is because tboyer is being disingenuous when he talks about Joe's last 20 years of coaching. In the '90's Penn State won more games than OSU, a lot of people don't know that, but its true. 1980's and 90's recruiting was off the charts bold and aggressive.

It wasnt until that "hangover" season of '00 when Joe got old seemingly overnight, and stopped taking risks that things began to change, and not necessarily for the better. It is not fair to Joe Paterno conflating the brilliant "younger" Joe to the "older" Joe, not fair at all.

tboyer, you are a punk of the highest order, shame on you. Stop making disingenuous and misleading remarks about Joepa. You have an agenda, and should just STFU.