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I have read most all of the GJP. Travesty born of entitlement.

demlion

demlion

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Feb 4, 2004
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Remember how sometimes when you were a kid, you got in trouble at school, and you convinced yourself that maybe the principal would not call your Mom? Even though you started out pretty sure it would happen, you talked yourself into thinking it wouldn't?

The behavior of these "boys" is very reminiscent of an entitled child's wishful thinking.

What's more, for the moment I have to believe Bream was out of the loop. I also think that could change as we move forward. In the meantime, I think if I were running things Bream would be frantically looking for work on my advice. Every semester you live there, there is a decent chance that either a sexual assault or some hideous underage drinking incident will occur in the place in which you chose to live.

Yo, Timmy! Your judgment is very poor. Bad enough Piazza died at your address. I will be needing a little sharper judgment in my next head trainer. Get out.
 
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demlion said:
Remember how sometimes when you were a kid, you got in trouble at school, and you convinced yourself that maybe the principal would not call your Mom? Even though you started out pretty sure it would happen, you talked yourself into thinking it wouldn't?

The behavior of these "boys" is very reminiscent of an entitled child's wishful thinking.

What's more, for the moment I have to believe Bream was out of the loop. I also think that could change as we move forward. In the meantime, I think if I were running things Bream would be frantically looking for work on my advice. Every semester you live there, there is a decent chance that either a sexual assault or some hideous underage drinking incident will occur in the place in which you chose to live.

Yo, Timmy! Your judgment is very poor. Bad enough Piazza died at your address. I will be needing a little sharper judgment in my next head trainer. Get out.
Click to expand...

Was anyone who interacted with Piazza sober? Or were they all pretty drunk?
 
demlion said:
Remember how sometimes when you were a kid, you got in trouble at school, and you convinced yourself that maybe the principal would not call your Mom? Even though you started out pretty sure it would happen, you talked yourself into thinking it wouldn't?

The behavior of these "boys" is very reminiscent of an entitled child's wishful thinking.

What's more, for the moment I have to believe Bream was out of the loop. I also think that could change as we move forward. In the meantime, I think if I were running things Bream would be frantically looking for work on my advice. Every semester you live there, there is a decent chance that either a sexual assault or some hideous underage drinking incident will occur in the place in which you chose to live.

Yo, Timmy! Your judgment is very poor. Bad enough Piazza died at your address. I will be needing a little sharper judgment in my next head trainer. Get out.
Click to expand...

I feel like I missed the first episode of Mad Men and started in the middle of year two. Can you be more descriptive?
 
Obliviax said:
I feel like I missed the first episode of Mad Men and started in the middle of year two. Can you be more descriptive?
Click to expand...
I may be late to the party as well, but there are a number of mainstream news stories linked to my yahoo feed today with more detail than I have seen previously. Obviously, they are only one side of the story, but if true, the negligence that night/morning is clearly criminal, IMO.

The one I read is linked below.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/penn-state...-charged-connection-pledges/story?id=47226888
 
Obliviax said:
I feel like I missed the first episode of Mad Men and started in the middle of year two. Can you be more descriptive?
Click to expand...

They lied about and schemed around every single rule regarding both alcohol and hazing--blithely set up people in charge of breaking the rules, funneled money to them to do the forbidden purchases of alcohol to serve to underage people. Piazza gets hurt and the people who were in charge fairly openly decided as a group to not seek care for him. The wishful thinking part is well, we hope he is going to wake up with a bad hangover and won't we look smart if we have not ratted ourselves out?

Bad call. He woke up dead, and there's thousands of feet of video.

Put him in a car and take him to the hospital? Put a squad of guys to work destroying the evidence of all the rule breaking? I am troubled by the notion that they did NOTHING. They are not even very clever criminals. It is like their lives did not prepare them for the notion that there would be consequences if something really bad happened.

That said, I am not sure legally they are in near as much trouble as SPM says, since the thing that outrages everyone, that they did not call 911, is probably not a crime all by itself. Now, once you feed an underage guy a bunch of liquor, the duty to take charge of him starts to float in there, but generally speaking if you did not feed him drinks, your failure to take care of him makes you a coward, a Bad Samaritan, but not a criminal.
 
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demlion said:
I want to say it was because his relationship broke up and he just needed a place.
Click to expand...
That's my understanding. From an article, "He moved into the house after separating from his wife, sources have said." I think he was in PSU Beta Theta Pi as an undergrad. Could be wrong.
 
Yep.

The thinking basically is: "I'll cross my fingers. Maybe this will go away on its own, without requiring action by me."

That's not a good strategy in life.
 
michnittlion said:
Yep.

The thinking basically is: "I'll cross my fingers. Maybe this will go away on its own, without requiring action by me."

That's not a good strategy in life.
Click to expand...

Agree. I can just imagine parents of frat members all over the USA calling their sons to chat about this. Its hard to learn "Daddy can't fix this" when you are already 21 years old.
 
mn78psu83 said:
That's my understanding. From an article, "He moved into the house after separating from his wife, sources have said." I think he was in PSU Beta Theta Pi as an undergrad. Could be wrong.
Click to expand...
don't they pay this guy enough to get an apartment somewhere? Very bizarre that he would chose to live with a bunch of college kids.
 
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mn78psu83 said:
That's my understanding. From an article, "He moved into the house after separating from his wife, sources have said." I think he was in PSU Beta Theta Pi as an undergrad. Could be wrong.
Click to expand...

That is what I thought without even reading it. Recently separated/divorced and wanted a cheap place to crash in the interim.

Ugly situation all around, feel bad for everybody involved.
 
Of course they made terrible decisions and showed poor character. You would expect more of college seniors.

But I think it should not be forgotten that they were AFRAID to call 911 because they knew everybody would be arrested and it would probably be the end of the fraternity. They made a gamble, a horrible, horrible gamble, that the kid would be okay and they could dodge the bullet.

But they only made that gamble because the legal repercussions of calling 911 would have been crushing. They knew the fraternity would be banned, they knew kids would get charged with providing alcohol and hazing, they knew a number of kids futures would be ruined with a criminal record.

Nobody is talking about how the harsh legal environment surrounding underage drinking played a role in this young man's death. If there was a way the frat could have called 911 without triggering a giant criminal investigation, they would have called 911 -- he obviously needed help. I don't know why they didn't at least try to get him into a taxi and take him to the emergency room.
 
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mn78psu83 said:
I'm 56 - believe that is Tim Bream's age too. I can't imagine living in a frat.
Click to expand...
Truly bizarre. I mean, I'm sure somewhere in the state college area he could find a cheap place, or live in someone's spare room for a month or so.
 
mn78psu83 said:
I'm 56 - believe that is Tim Bream's age too. I can't imagine living in a frat.
Click to expand...

It's a very big house. I'm sure everybody knows where it is. If Bream was sleeping at a different end of the building, he wouldn't even have the slightest idea what is going on. Plus if he's staying there he's used to a certain noise level.

It's sad that the brothers didn't seek him out. But the truth is he probably wasn't really an adviser, that was probably just a title someone gave him so they could give him a place to crash while he was sorting out his marriage/life.
 
tboyer said:
It's sad that the brothers didn't seek him out. But the truth is he probably wasn't really an adviser, that was probably just a title someone gave him so they could give him a place to crash while he was sorting out his marriage/life.
Click to expand...

It is sad that they did not seek him out in light of his professional expertise.
 
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tboyer said:
Of course they made terrible decisions and showed poor character. You would expect more of college seniors.

But I think it should not be forgotten that they were AFRAID to call 911 because they knew everybody would be arrested and it would probably be the end of the fraternity. They made a gamble, a horrible, horrible gamble, that the kid would be okay and they could dodge the bullet.

But they only made that gamble because the legal repercussions of calling 911 would have been crushing. They knew the fraternity would be banned, they knew kids would get charged with providing alcohol and hazing, they knew a number of kids futures would be ruined with a criminal record.

Nobody is talking about how the harsh legal environment surrounding underage drinking played a role in this young man's death. If there was a way the frat could have called 911 without triggering a giant criminal investigation, they would have called 911 -- he obviously needed help. I don't know why they didn't at least try to get him to the emergency room.
Click to expand...
I presume you're talking about the sort of "no questions asked" law they have wrt those who find their roommate OD'd in their apartment bathroom. Would be interesting to know if there is such a rule wrt underage drinking in SC. But at some level that is just creating a NEW situation in which there are no consequences for breaking the rules. This is not something you should be learning for the first time when you are 21, 22 years old.
 
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acg116 said:
Truly bizarre. I mean, I'm sure somewhere in the state college area he could find a cheap place, or live in someone's spare room for a month or so.
Click to expand...

I don't find that part bizarre at least on the surface. He needed a place to crash temporarily, they had a free room, he was an alumnus of the frat. It's a good location, the rent's cheap.
 
demlion said:
Agree. I can just imagine parents of frat members all over the USA calling their sons to chat about this. Its hard to learn "Daddy can't fix this" when you are already 21 years old.
Click to expand...
Larry: For your information, that Chapter of Beta Theta Pi features alums who are doctors, lawyers, founders of high tech companies, an astronaut, and a U.S. Congressman. They are part of the "culture of entitlement" with which you, despite your non membership and non involvement, are apparently so familiar.

Using this tragedy to repeatedly vent your spleen about fraternities and spout wild stereotypes about their members (e.g. "frat members all over the USA" don't understand that "Daddy can't fix this"), is not a good look for you. Living in West Virginia, you should have a clear understanding of how inaccurate stereotypes can be.
 
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mn78psu83 said:
It is sad that they did not seek him out in light of his professional expertise.
Click to expand...

I guess will find out but I would guess he wasn't really an adviser, he was just a guy lodging there for a few months, they didn't really know him so they didn't trust him -- or they thought they would just get him in trouble if they involved him. (And they very well might have been true If he had been brought in, even if his judgment was impeccable, people might have blamed him for not preventing the alcohol use and he would have lost his job at PSU.)
 
tboyer said:
Of course they made terrible decisions and showed poor character. You would expect more of college seniors.

But I think it should not be forgotten that they were AFRAID to call 911 because they knew everybody would be arrested and it would probably be the end of the fraternity. They made a gamble, a horrible, horrible gamble, that the kid would be okay and they could dodge the bullet.

But they only made that gamble because the legal repercussions of calling 911 would have been crushing. They knew the fraternity would be banned, they knew kids would get charged with providing alcohol and hazing, they knew a number of kids futures would be ruined with a criminal record.

Nobody is talking about how the harsh legal environment surrounding underage drinking played a role in this young man's death. If there was a way the frat could have called 911 without triggering a giant criminal investigation, they would have called 911 -- he obviously needed help. I don't know why they didn't at least try to get him into a taxi and take him to the emergency room.
Click to expand...

True --- but these kids KNEW they weren't supposed to be forcing pledges to drink alcohol. That's trouble in itself!

I have no issue with hazing/initiation rites in general. But there are two rules that MUST be followed absolutely and without exception. IMO, national fraternity organizations need to take a zero tolerance rule as regards these:

(1) Never force a brother/pledge to drink (obviously broken by this PSU frat).

(2) Never lay a finger physically upon a brother/pledge.
 
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LafayetteBear said:
Larry: For your information, that Chapter of Beta Theta Pi features alums who are doctors, lawyers, founders of high tech companies, an astronaut, and a U.S. Congressman. They are part of the "culture of entitlement" with which you, despite your non membership and non involvement, are apparently so familiar.

Using this tragedy to repeatedly vent your spleen about fraternities and spout wild stereotypes about their members (e.g. "frat members all over the USA" don't understand that "Daddy can't fix this"), is not a good look for you. Living in West Virginia, you should have a clear understanding of how inaccurate stereotypes can be.
Click to expand...

Of course Beta Theta Pi has plenty of distinguished alums. As does every fraternity/sorority.

I wouldn't have used the word "entitled" (that's a bit of a loaded word) --- but demlion is exactly correct when he used the phrase "wishful thinking." We can also add the word reckless in there. It was reckless and wishful thinking.

Sometimes you can get away with reckless and wishful thinking - things sort themselves out regardless. This time it didn't.

If you're willing to take the risk - you better be prepared for the consequences if you lose the dice roll.
 
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demlion said:
I presume you're talking about the sort of "no questions asked" law they have wrt those who find their roommate OD'd in their apartment bathroom. Would be interesting to know if there is such a rule wrt underage drinking in SC. But at some level that is just creating a NEW situation in which there are no consequences for breaking the rules. This is not something you should be learning for the first time when you are 21, 22 years old.
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't know the answer. But it is true this kid died at least in part because calling 911 would have brought alcohol citations and alcohol citations mean crushing, lifetime consequences for these kids these days. And it certainly would have been the end of the frat.

I don't think an underage drinking violation or providing alcohol to minors should be a lifetime punishment, but in our society these days it is. Just about everybody drinks, 60% drink regularly -- but if they get caught, they can throw their career dreams out the window in many cases. It's a strange situation.

In fact it could be argued that the legal consequences are not really that much more severe than they would have been had the kid been hospitalized and lived. It still would have been a scandal, criminal charges against the brothers, the chapter banned, a number of young lives ruined. In a way the brothers were just playing the odds and weighing the potential outcomes, and that is why they made the awful decision to not seek help.
 
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Sadly, there is nothing new happening at the fraternities. Hell, serious, dangerous drinking occurred in the 60's. I remember grain alcohol parties: 190 proof mixed with Donald Duck juice in shiny garbage cans; a slide down the stairway instead of the steps for the night. I remember tripping over and stepping over people that were passed out. This is just one party. Now I look back and think OMG, I never thought to care for any of those passed out. How about going through 20+ kegs at a party? No problem.
 
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LafayetteBear said:
Larry: For your information, that Chapter of Beta Theta Pi features alums who are doctors, lawyers, founders of high tech companies, an astronaut, and a U.S. Congressman. They are part of the "culture of entitlement" with which you, despite your non membership and non involvement, are apparently so familiar.

Using this tragedy to repeatedly vent your spleen about fraternities and spout wild stereotypes about their members (e.g. "frat members all over the USA" don't understand that "Daddy can't fix this"), is not a good look for you. Living in West Virginia, you should have a clear understanding of how inaccurate stereotypes can be.
Click to expand...

Sorry you are butthurt, but entitled is as entitled does. As for kids all over the USA, I was with a bunch of my friends from PSU this weekend. Two of them have kids in frats, one in NC, one in PA. BOTH OF THEM were having the very chat I am talking about with their own kids just this weekend. Then I get back here today and a local radio guy says he wants me to come on his show to talk about this because HIS kid is president of HIS frat at Shippensburg or someplace.

"Doctors, lawyers, founders of high tech companies, an astronaut, and a U.S. Congressman"????

LOL! Did you go out of your way to pick groups that are known and resented because of the members' sense of entitlement?
 
olelion said:
Sadly, there is nothing new happening at the fraternities. Hell, serious, dangerous drinking occurred in the 60's. I remember grain alcohol parties: 190 proof mixed with Donald Duck juice in shiny garbage cans; a slide down the stairway instead of the steps for the night. I remember tripping over and stepping over people that were passed out. This is just one party. Now I look back and think OMG, I never thought to care for any of those passed out. How about going through 20+ kegs at a party? No problem.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I wonder where it even comes from.

We go to Italy a lot. They essentially don't even HAVE laws regarding alcohol. In most jurisdictions basically no such thing as a liquor license. Anybody can sell anything at any time to anyone. Technically the drinking age is 16 but nobody even asks for ID. Kids are introduced to watered-down wine when they are very young. There's no open container laws, you can buy wine (or liquor) and just hang out in public squares and as long as you don't act badly, nobody will bother you.

But in all the times I've been to Italy -- and we've been to a lot of big university towns -- I can't even remember seeing a single drunk student. People behave themselves. It's not unusual to see four people in Italy share a single bottle of wine for dinner, and when they leave there is still wine in the glasses. I can picture students in Florence congregating near Santa Croce, overflowing out of a bar with glasses of wine and just sitting on the steps of the church on a warm evening and just chilling (and clearly not worried about being arrested). It is about as different from American college students as you could imagine.

It's all culture. It's not law.

I think in the U.S. with drugs and alcohol both we have made it all about law. Somehow people got the idea that police and courts and harsh laws would solve the problem.

What would solve the problem is culture. When the nation really sets its mind to changing culture it can do it -- it's hard but it can be done, it takes political consensus. The government campaign to discourage smoking has been a huge success -- not a total success obviously but smoking is not cool in many quarters.

What it would take to persuade people in the U.S., especially young people, that being drunk is not cool?
 
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acg116 said:
don't they pay this guy enough to get an apartment somewhere? Very bizarre that he would chose to live with a bunch of college kids.
Click to expand...
From what I read, he was their "advisor." And from what I read, he was not notified there was a problem--not sure where he was when these events were happening.
 
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I agree with the idea that the puritanical approach to alcohol in this country has probably contributed to the drinking culture among young people. Alcohol become demonized at the time of Prohibition and hasn't ever recovered. For that I guess we can all thank the WCTU.

The comparison to Italian culture is spot on, no doubt.
 
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demlion said:
Sorry you are butthurt, but entitled is as entitled does. As for kids all over the USA, I was with a bunch of my friends from PSU this weekend. Two of them have kids in frats, one in NC, one in PA. BOTH OF THEM were having the very chat I am talking about with their own kids just this weekend. Then I get back here today and a local radio guy says he wants me to come on his show to talk about this because HIS kid is president of HIS frat at Shippensburg or someplace.

"Doctors, lawyers, founders of high tech companies, an astronaut, and a U.S. Congressman"????

LOL! Did you go out of your way to pick groups that are known and resented because of the members' sense of entitlement?
Click to expand...
First, I am not "butthurt" about anything you might manage to post on these Boards. The point was that you obviously nurse a sense of anger towards fraternities in general, and attempt to assuage it by neatly stereotyping everyone who was ever a member of a fraternity as an "entitled brat." That is laughable. As I noted, some of those brats have enjoyed quite successful careers.

You just posted last week about sittin' on your back porch back thar in West Virginny, takin' pot shots at varmints. Were you sippin' on a jug of shine while doing so?

See how that stereotype thing works, Mountaineer?
 
demlion said:
Remember how sometimes when you were a kid, you got in trouble at school, and you convinced yourself that maybe the principal would not call your Mom? Even though you started out pretty sure it would happen, you talked yourself into thinking it wouldn't?

The behavior of these "boys" is very reminiscent of an entitled child's wishful thinking.

What's more, for the moment I have to believe Bream was out of the loop. I also think that could change as we move forward. In the meantime, I think if I were running things Bream would be frantically looking for work on my advice. Every semester you live there, there is a decent chance that either a sexual assault or some hideous underage drinking incident will occur in the place in which you chose to live.

Yo, Timmy! Your judgment is very poor. Bad enough Piazza died at your address. I will be needing a little sharper judgment in my next head trainer. Get out.
Click to expand...

How'd you feel after reading the GJP on Sandusky?
 
tboyer said:
Yeah, I wonder where it even comes from.

We go to Italy a lot. They essentially don't even HAVE laws regarding alcohol. In most jurisdictions basically no such thing as a liquor license. Anybody can sell anything at any time to anyone. Technically the drinking age is 16 but nobody even asks for ID. Kids are introduced to watered-down wine when they are very young. There's no open container laws, you can buy wine (or liquor) and just hang out in public squares and as long as you don't act badly, nobody will bother you.

But in all the times I've been to Italy -- and we've been to a lot of big university towns -- I can't even remember seeing a single drunk student. People behave themselves. It's not unusual to see four people in Italy share a single bottle of wine for dinner, and when they leave there is still wine in the glasses. I can picture students in Florence congregating near Santa Croce, overflowing out of a bar with glasses of wine and just sitting on the steps of the church on a warm evening and just chilling (and clearly not worried about being arrested). It is about as different from American college students as you could imagine.

It's all culture. It's not law.

I think in the U.S. with drugs and alcohol both we have made it all about law. Somehow people got the idea that police and courts and harsh laws would solve the problem.

What would solve the problem is culture. When the nation really sets its mind to changing culture it can do it -- it's hard but it can be done, it takes political consensus. The government campaign to discourage smoking has been a huge success -- not a total success obviously but smoking is not cool in many quarters.

What it would take to persuade people in the U.S., especially young people, that being drunk is not cool?
Click to expand...

I, too, frequent Italy often. I, too, have noticed what you noticed.

I do believe it is cultural. Our society wants things HARD and FAST. It's ingrained in us early.

I still go out and about. I watch so many 20 somethings get obliterated doing shots. It baffles my mindividual.

When I was 20 something, I don't recall consumption like I see today. And, when I bump into people that know me, they wanna do a shot.

I am usually drinking wine (only because it prevents me from getting drunk and driving home drunk). And, I tell them, "I don't do shots."

They look at me like I just said "I'm a communist." "YOU DON'T DO SHOTS?!?" They ask. I tell them no.

It's amazing, actually.

 
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