I have read most all of the GJP. Travesty born of entitlement.

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Yep.

The thinking basically is: "I'll cross my fingers. Maybe this will go away on its own, without requiring action by me."

That's not a good strategy in life.

I'm still not sure where stupidity ends and entitlement begins. I don't know that any sort of privilege played a role here; seems like the result of a bunch of drunk, stupid, scared kids that could happen anywhere, to include some 'in the woods' rager with kids getting lit on PBR and homemade hooch.

That's not to say there isn't any culpability - the courts will decide that.

 

[demlion]

It already is.

But I'm "biased" because I think having psu slammed over this is not worth the candle.

Barron had a task force. Beta was on it. Can't make it up.

 

[Obliviax]

I'm still not sure where stupidity ends and entitlement begins. I don't know that any sort of privilege played a role here; seems like the result of a bunch of drunk, stupid, scared kids that could happen anywhere, to include some 'in the woods' rager with kids getting lit on PBR and homemade hooch.

That's not to say there isn't any culpability - the courts will decide that.

I totally agree. College is that tipping point where a kid becomes an adult. You give them some rope and hope that they know how to use it (like their first driver's license). You hope and pray at 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 that they have enough common sense. To do much more is to be a "helicopter parent" and overly "entitle" kids to a make-believe, constructed life where they will end up having to deal with reality at some point down the road.

I am no fan of "greek life". But one would hope that Greek life is additive and not detractive to maturing young students. But if Frats go away, its not going to make a lot of difference in the world.

Unfortunately, young kids are learning a hard lesson in what it is to be an adult, to be defensive and that there are consequences to actions. A kid died. That cannot be denied or over looked. Hopefully, other kids are watching and it provides a cautionary tale.

 

[lurkerlion]

But I'm "biased" because I think having psu slammed over this is not worth the candle.

Barron had a task force. Beta was on it. Can't make it up.

Excuse me, but you just reinforced the previous criticisms. All I asked was that you admit your previous "bias" and then state your case. Your previous bias is well documented. I admit I have a "bias" because I was in a fraternity. However, I can't believe the kids in Beta were that stupid, privileged, lacking in fundamental humanity, drunk (if allegations are true, then pick one or all of the above).

All you have to do is admit that you never liked fraternities. It won't hurt and people will actually be more likely to believe what you say.

OR, are you guilty of being a "denier" of fact like some privileged frat kid.

 

[bjf1991]

Before I start, I will say I am a former Greek at PSU but I'm not here to defend the system. What frustrates me in all this is here we go again with a bunch of parties attempting to not let a good crisis go to waste. First, we have a DA up for reelection making political theater of the charges and the presentment. Using the victims family as tools. The presentment paints huge generalities of the Greek system based on the testimony of a few non-Betas. Then we have Barron and Sims using this to hammer the Greek letter system again using generalities. Barron's speach last week already had these guys convicted and heading to jail. Also, we have some in the community and on here taking the chance to hit the Greeks for their own reasons.

Apparently we didn't learn a damn thing from the Sandusky event. The presentment is a one sided document. Can we please let the legal system play out? I share the same disgust as many of you from reading the presentment. If it is true, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But let's hear their side first.

As for Tim Bream, I think the university is in on this protecting him. DA Miller when asked if he was charged refused to even use his name. Then she said under PA law, even if he knew about it, he was under no obligation to do anything. Huh? How much has PSU donated to her campaign? I have known Tim since we were students in the same major. While we have run into each other over the years, we are not friends. I find it very odd he had no idea that drinking was occuring in the house and not just this event. If he was the chapter advisor, will Beta take action against him for having no knowledge of all the drinking going on for years at the chapter house? Will this be another PSU black eye?

My bottom line is that a young man has died. If accurate, the term brotherhood means nothing at Beta Theta Pi. No one gave a shit about anybody but themselves. They sat by and watched a young man die.
Unfortunately, the Greek system will be painted with a broad brush as all bad because of this.

As for the Greek system, does it needs cleaned up, yes. Is it going to be fixed from some top down edicts from Sims and Barron, no. There needs to be real communication and willingness to cooperate by both parties. Penn State will be a lesser place without its Greek system but it needs help. I hope it will survive.

I hope Tim Piazzas family can find peace in all of this. As I watched my son graduate from med school last week, I thought of his family. They will never see the dreams they had for their son come true. They will never share in his life and successes in the future. I can't possibly imagine the strength they need to just get through each day knowing if it were not for his senseless death he would be here for them.

As a State College native, a PSU alum, a Greek, the great grandson of a former fraternity house mother I'm just sick. I hate to see another event tearing my school and hometown apart. It just sucks that we can no longer come together as a community and solve problems. But rather everyone picks their side and refuses to listen to the other.

The University's actions to date have all been about "protecting"....without question.

What folks - most of whom are paying ZERO attention to the history of this situation - are failing to see (though it is obvious to a blind man) is that the folks being protected are these guys (and this should have been obvious from day 1):

Go back and review the "restart" of Beta (back in 2009?)
Go back and look at the pontifications wrt assessing the "Greek" issues (back in 2014?)
Go back and look at what these folks (and others) SAID they were going to do......and look at what they did.

__________________


It is obvious why Piazza's parents made this initial statement about their son's death (link here: http://www.philly.com/philly/education/Frat-death-raises-questions-for-grieving-parents.html )

".....The Piazzas, who have hired Philadelphia attorney Tom Kline, are determined that everyone who had a hand in their son’s death is held accountable, and that includes Penn State.

The 46,000-student University Park campus since 2015 had a task force, headed by Damon Sims, vice president for student affairs, looking into reports of hazing, underage drinking, sexual assaults, and other problems within the fraternity system.

But the task force issued no report and the university took no public action on major issues until after the Piazzas’ son died.

“I believe if he had taken some meaningful actions,” Jim Piazza said of Sims, “our son would be alive.”

Sims in response said members of the task force, including students and local residents, could not agree on important issues, such as the size and frequency of parties.

“They already knew this stuff, but they didn’t act on it,” Piazza said."



_______________



And this doesn't even BEGIN to open the issues surrounding the restart of Beta - - - - under the leadership of then Schreyers' Dean Brady, Damon Sims and others.....and the willful ignorance all of them displayed wrt the clear and ongoing violations of what were SUPPOSED to be parameters of "model fraternity life".


______________



And now - here come Tom Kline and Ira Lubert.....and Tom says:

"Hey Ira, I need a check"

and Ira says:

"How much?"

And PSU buys their way out of their negligence.

And we are REALLY that stupid that we don't recognize this game?
Seriously?




Entitled? Frat boys?
Maybe.

But if so, they are learning at the feet of Masters - - - - - who make them look like rookies.


Anyway....it is what it is.

In the meantime, the MSM and the Social Media warriors can continue with their circle-jerk.

 

[demlion]

Excuse me, but you just reinforced the previous criticisms. All I asked was that you admit your previous "bias" and then state your case. Your previous bias is well documented. I admit I have a "bias" because I was in a fraternity. However, I can't believe the kids in Beta were that stupid, privileged, lacking in fundamental humanity, drunk (if allegations are true, then pick one or all of the above).

All you have to do is admit that you never liked fraternities. It won't hurt and people will actually be more likely to believe what you say.

OR, are you guilty of being a "denier" of fact like some privileged frat kid.

LOL. I can believe they were that stupid. We have to, now. But the University is not getting anything near what it ought to require in order to shoulder this burden. They ought to shuck the burden.

But let's be clear--I am not surprised that college students did this. The question is, after all these years of this stuff, why fraternities still have special access to the University administration. Still waiting to hear whether the IFC has booted any frats that the University did not boot first.

 

[demlion]

The University's actions to date have all been about "protecting"....without question.

What folks - most of whom are paying ZERO attention to the history of this situation - are failing to see (though it is obvious to a blind man) is that the folks being protected are these guys (and this should have been obvious from day 1):

Go back and review the "restart" of Beta (back in 2009?)
Go back and look at the pontifications wrt assessing the "Greek" issues (back in 2014?)
Go back and look at what these folks (and others) SAID they were going to do......and look at what they did.


It is obvious why Piazza's parents made this initial statement about their son's death:

http://www.philly.com/philly/education/Frat-death-raises-questions-for-grieving-parents.html

".....The Piazzas, who have hired Philadelphia attorney Tom Kline, are determined that everyone who had a hand in their son’s death is held accountable, and that includes Penn State.

The 46,000-student University Park campus since 2015 had a task force, headed by Damon Sims, vice president for student affairs, looking into reports of hazing, underage drinking, sexual assaults, and other problems within the fraternity system.

But the task force issued no report and the university took no public action on major issues until after the Piazzas’ son died.

“I believe if he had taken some meaningful actions,” Jim Piazza said of Sims, “our son would be alive.”

Sims in response said members of the task force, including students and local residents, could not agree on important issues, such as the size and frequency of parties.

“They already knew this stuff, but they didn’t act on it,” Piazza said."

And this doesn't even BEGIN to open the issues surrounding the restart of Beta - - - - under the leadership of then Schreyers' Dean Brady, Damon Sims and others.....and the willful ignorance all of them displayed wrt the clear and ongoing violations of what were SUPPOSED to be parameters of "model fraternity life".


And now - here come Tom Kline and Ira Lubert.....and Tom says:

"Hey Ira, I need a check"

and Ira says:

"How much"

And PSU buys their way out of their negligence.


Entitled? Frat boys?
Maybe.

But if so, they are learning at the feet of Masters - - - - - who make them look like rookies.


Anyway....it is what it is.

In the meantime, the MSM and the Social Media warriors can continue with their circle-jerk.

Watch out, Barry. It is becoming clear you have a bias against all Greek orgs.

 

[demlion]

Excuse me, but you just reinforced the previous criticisms. All I asked was that you admit your previous "bias" and then state your case. Your previous bias is well documented. I admit I have a "bias" because I was in a fraternity. However, I can't believe the kids in Beta were that stupid, privileged, lacking in fundamental humanity, drunk (if allegations are true, then pick one or all of the above).

All you have to do is admit that you never liked fraternities. It won't hurt and people will actually be more likely to believe what you say.

OR, are you guilty of being a "denier" of fact like some privileged frat kid.

I have a very deep and unrelenting bias against organizations with special access to the University administration which kill people through gross negligence or recklessness. Same goes for grooming charities which abuse troubled kids. Very biased against them.

 

[psulax3]

Excuse me, but you just reinforced the previous criticisms. All I asked was that you admit your previous "bias" and then state your case. Your previous bias is well documented. I admit I have a "bias" because I was in a fraternity. However, I can't believe the kids in Beta were that stupid, privileged, lacking in fundamental humanity, drunk (if allegations are true, then pick one or all of the above).

All you have to do is admit that you never liked fraternities. It won't hurt and people will actually be more likely to believe what you say.

OR, are you guilty of being a "denier" of fact like some privileged frat kid.

I have a very deep and unrelenting bias against organizations with special access to the University administration which kill people through gross negligence or recklessness. Same goes for grooming charities which abuse troubled kids. Very biased against them.

So now all fraternities are equated to the second mile? Cool.

 

[demlion]

So now all fraternities are equated to the second mile? Cool.

No, just the fraternities which cause people to die. Since our feebleminded leadership seems incapable of sorting one out from the other, it would be best to cut ties with all of them. Now.

BTW, I have asked several times for someone to tell me about situations where the IFC boot a frat that the University did not boot first. So the IFC cant sort them out either?

 

[kgilbert78]

No, just the fraternities which cause people to die. Since our feebleminded leadership seems incapable of sorting one out from the other, it would be best to cut ties with all of them. Now.

BTW, I have asked several times for someone to tell me about situations where the IFC boot a frat that the University did not boot first. So the IFC cant sort them out either?

Dem, your bias is showing here. And I'm no frat guy. By that standard/reasoning Penn State should get rid of all the students, too.

 

[demlion]

Dem, your bias is showing here. And I'm no frat guy. By that standard/reasoning Penn State should get rid of all the students, too.

All the students have special access to the University leadership? The ordinary apartment dweller does not have a "council" which argues his interests (and the interests of those similarly situated) to the University leadership like the IFC. Why is the University involved in a "task force" to address what are clear, off-campus violations of University policy? Aside from the fact that the "task force" looks like a pretend structure to mime they are doing something about the problem while actually doing nothing.

It may be agued that once PSU undertook the responsibility to do something about this problem, and failed to do anything about it, it became liable for the resulting harm. Just not worth it. Pretty tired of seeing the University throw money at problems caused by others.

 

[lurkerlion]

No, just the fraternities which cause people to die. Since our feebleminded leadership seems incapable of sorting one out from the other, it would be best to cut ties with all of them. Now.

Wow, you still haven't admitted to any preexisting bias toward fraternities and just keep doubling down with your opinions. I don't necessarily disagree that this may be the end of fraternities, but "special access"? The alumni association has special access. The debate team has special access. As usual, you use a broad brush of accusation.

Personally, I have always been troubled by hazing and hierarchies of groups. However, I realize that they permeate everything we do. Fraternity hazing is modeled after Mason rituals. Soldiers have boot camp. Doctors do residencies with 24 hour shifts. Lawyers do 7 year associative gigs before being considered for partnership. Professors do years of associate teaching and ass kissing before being considered for tenure. Larry I believe is a personal injury attorney. If he had a big case or two, I am sure he gladly accepted the moniker of "Superlawyer" for his advertising. I am certain he is a member of the American Trial Lawyers Association which has very special access to politicians. Life changes after Little League and fraternities are just sort of an optional part of those changes. The Animal House image just makes fraternities an easy and popular target.

The difference in the Beta case is alcohol in initiation. Universities have outlawed that while trying to wink with regard to regular parties. Initiation drinking seems to be where most of the tragedies occur. Yet it still goes on. Is it culture or privilege or stupidity or tradition or what? Sometimes kids are just kids and sometimes they are just mean to other kids. It is a lot more complicated than any argument here or story in the media.

 

[jerseylion109]

dem you are really going off the rails here...you hate frats and greek life. we get it

 

[Sproul]

dem you are really going off the rails here...you hate frats and greek life. we get it

The University's actions to date have all been about "protecting"....without question.

What folks - most of whom are paying ZERO attention to the history of this situation - are failing to see (though it is obvious to a blind man) is that the folks being protected are these guys (and this should have been obvious from day 1):

Go back and review the "restart" of Beta (back in 2009?)
Go back and look at the pontifications wrt assessing the "Greek" issues (back in 2014?)
Go back and look at what these folks (and others) SAID they were going to do......and look at what they did.

__________________


It is obvious why Piazza's parents made this initial statement about their son's death (link here: http://www.philly.com/philly/education/Frat-death-raises-questions-for-grieving-parents.html )

".....The Piazzas, who have hired Philadelphia attorney Tom Kline, are determined that everyone who had a hand in their son’s death is held accountable, and that includes Penn State.

The 46,000-student University Park campus since 2015 had a task force, headed by Damon Sims, vice president for student affairs, looking into reports of hazing, underage drinking, sexual assaults, and other problems within the fraternity system.

But the task force issued no report and the university took no public action on major issues until after the Piazzas’ son died.

“I believe if he had taken some meaningful actions,” Jim Piazza said of Sims, “our son would be alive.”

Sims in response said members of the task force, including students and local residents, could not agree on important issues, such as the size and frequency of parties.

“They already knew this stuff, but they didn’t act on it,” Piazza said."



_______________



And this doesn't even BEGIN to open the issues surrounding the restart of Beta - - - - under the leadership of then Schreyers' Dean Brady, Damon Sims and others.....and the willful ignorance all of them displayed wrt the clear and ongoing violations of what were SUPPOSED to be parameters of "model fraternity life".


______________



And now - here come Tom Kline and Ira Lubert.....and Tom says:

"Hey Ira, I need a check"

and Ira says:

"How much?"

And PSU buys their way out of their negligence.

And we are REALLY that stupid that we don't recognize this game?
Seriously?




Entitled? Frat boys?
Maybe.

But if so, they are learning at the feet of Masters - - - - - who make them look like rookies.


Anyway....it is what it is.

In the meantime, the MSM and the Social Media warriors can continue with their circle-jerk.

Man I hope they sue Sims. See how he likes being on the receiving end of a witch hunt for scapegoats.

 

[Nitt1300]

here is a list of the groups that have "special access"

https://studentaffairs.psu.edu/hub/studentorgs/orgdirectory/search.aspx

 

[demlion]

Wow, you still haven't admitted to any preexisting bias toward fraternities and just keep doubling down with your opinions. I don't necessarily disagree that this may be the end of fraternities, but "special access"? The alumni association has special access. The debate team has special access. As usual, you use a broad brush of accusation.

Personally, I have always been troubled by hazing and hierarchies of groups. However, I realize that they permeate everything we do. Fraternity hazing is modeled after Mason rituals. Soldiers have boot camp. Doctors do residencies with 24 hour shifts. Lawyers do 7 year associative gigs before being considered for partnership. Professors do years of associate teaching and ass kissing before being considered for tenure. Larry I believe is a personal injury attorney. If he had a big case or two, I am sure he gladly accepted the moniker of "Superlawyer" for his advertising. I am certain he is a member of the American Trial Lawyers Association which has very special access to politicians. Life changes after Little League and fraternities are just sort of an optional part of those changes. The Animal House image just makes fraternities an easy and popular target.

The difference in the Beta case is alcohol in initiation. Universities have outlawed that while trying to wink with regard to regular parties. Initiation drinking seems to be where most of the tragedies occur. Yet it still goes on. Is it culture or privilege or stupidity or tradition or what? Sometimes kids are just kids and sometimes they are just mean to other kids. It is a lot more complicated than any argument here or story in the media.

Answer my questions. Then we shall see where the bias lies. Has the IFC ever booted a frat for this sort of problem even though the University did not? Is the University, having undertaken to solve the problem of criminality in the frats, now locked itself into paying damages claims?

 

[MtNittany]

Has the IFC ever booted a frat for this sort of problem even though the University did not?

I don't know for sure, but given the long history, my guess would be yes. Probably many times. Probably for as little as not paying some sort of dues.

I assume Beta (like dozens of other houses) was pressed into renovations due to the change in fire codes. Those changes (pressed by Spanky and the University) resulted in basically $1M minimum in renovations, or get out.

For such a "privileged" group with all this "access", many houses sure took it up the wazoo, huh?

 

[demlion]

I don't know for sure, but given the long history, my guess would be yes. Probably many times. Probably for as little as not paying some sort of dues.

I assume Beta (like dozens of other houses) was pressed into renovations due to the change in fire codes. Those changes (pressed by Spanky and the University) resulted in basically $1M minimum in renovations, or get out.

For such a "privileged" group with all this "access", many houses sure took it up the wazoo, huh?

Yeah, kick them for not paying dues, sure. That's money. I asked if IFC ever booted any frat for the sort of problem we have here?

Is it likely that nobody in any frat other than Beta knew that Beta was hazing? Is it likely that nobody in any other frat knew they were drinking in a dry house?

 

[demlion]

Wow, you still haven't admitted to any preexisting bias toward fraternities and just keep doubling down with your opinions. I don't necessarily disagree that this may be the end of fraternities, but "special access"? The alumni association has special access. The debate team has special access. As usual, you use a broad brush of accusation.

Personally, I have always been troubled by hazing and hierarchies of groups. However, I realize that they permeate everything we do. Fraternity hazing is modeled after Mason rituals. Soldiers have boot camp. Doctors do residencies with 24 hour shifts. Lawyers do 7 year associative gigs before being considered for partnership. Professors do years of associate teaching and ass kissing before being considered for tenure. Larry I believe is a personal injury attorney. If he had a big case or two, I am sure he gladly accepted the moniker of "Superlawyer" for his advertising. I am certain he is a member of the American Trial Lawyers Association which has very special access to politicians. Life changes after Little League and fraternities are just sort of an optional part of those changes. The Animal House image just makes fraternities an easy and popular target.

The difference in the Beta case is alcohol in initiation. Universities have outlawed that while trying to wink with regard to regular parties. Initiation drinking seems to be where most of the tragedies occur. Yet it still goes on. Is it culture or privilege or stupidity or tradition or what? Sometimes kids are just kids and sometimes they are just mean to other kids. It is a lot more complicated than any argument here or story in the media.

You cannot be serious. Those examples you give are ridiculous. Still waiting for you to answer the questions. Why do we need an IFC?

 

[demlion]

SAE? I think they were booted for repeated problems.

I believe the Phi Delts were ushered out the door too.

by the IFC? Or the University?

 

[demlion]

here is a list of the groups that have "special access"

https://studentaffairs.psu.edu/hub/studentorgs/orgdirectory/search.aspx

How many task forces have been set up to stop the chess club from criminal conduct?

 

[MtNittany]

Tell the truth Dem. Someone talked you into going to Phi Delt one night and you wound up w/ a salamander in your beer.

BTW, the U owns that property now. So much for "what do they contribute?"...prime real estate apparently.

 

[Nitt1300]

How many task forces have been set up to stop the chess club from criminal conduct?

spend a weekend in any dorm- including the honors dorm-then talk about underage binge drinking and group stupidity

you have an agenda- it's ok, just own it

 

[tboyer]

I agree with the idea that the puritanical approach to alcohol in this country has probably contributed to the drinking culture among young people. Alcohol become demonized at the time of Prohibition and hasn't ever recovered. For that I guess we can all thank the WCTU.

The comparison to Italian culture is spot on, no doubt.

You almost wonder, what if after the Surgeon General's report the government just tried to ban tobacco outright -- instead of trying to persuade people that smoking would kill them, just started fining people for smoking and forcing them out of their jobs. Maybe instituting workplace tobacco testing... and then 30 year sentences for cigarette smugglers.

We could have put a million people through the criminal justice system over cigarettes and where would we be today -- I bet you'd have rampant underground tobacco use on college campuses. Nothing would be cooler than smoking cigarettes.

Human nature is a funny thing. When you apply brute force -- be it military force or police force -- sometimes the policy not only fails, it backfires and produces a worse outcome. I think that is what has happened with drugs and alcohol.

 

[bjf1991]

Man I hope they sue Sims. See how he likes being on the receiving end of a witch hunt for scapegoats.

They won't.
I think it is safe to say that Ira has already bought Sims' cover (he's pretty experienced at that maneuver )

 

[kgilbert78]

All the students have special access to the University leadership? The ordinary apartment dweller does not have a "council" which argues his interests (and the interests of those similarly situated) to the University leadership like the IFC. Why is the University involved in a "task force" to address what are clear, off-campus violations of University policy? Aside from the fact that the "task force" looks like a pretend structure to mime they are doing something about the problem while actually doing nothing.

It may be agued that once PSU undertook the responsibility to do something about this problem, and failed to do anything about it, it became liable for the resulting harm. Just not worth it. Pretty tired of seeing the University throw money at problems caused by others.

I seem to recall that there was such an org when I was in school. OTIS, I think (organization of town-independent students). Don't ask me how I pulled that out of my memory banks, tho.....

Flip side, I seem to recall toga parties in the dorms back in the day (due to the movie). But I wasn't much of a party type. Too much a science nerd--and too shy with girls. That changed some in grad school....

 

[demlion]

spend a weekend in any dorm- including the honors dorm-then talk about underage binge drinking and group stupidity

you have an agenda- it's ok, just own it

The University has RAs throughout the dorms. They own that, too, but the University requires freshmen to live in the dorms. Nobody who leaves the dorms for a private apartment is supervised by the University in this way.

 

[Lion Lineage]

Anyone know if the human piece of excrement that punched in the stomach a passed out, inebriated, and mortally injured Tim Piazza was charged with the most serious of offenses?

Also, I'm a bit late getting caught up on this, anyone have a link to the presentment?

EDIT: I found a copy of the Presentment. A. It wonky on my I-phone but it will do.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Already knew how that stereotype thing worked. You cannot bother me with YOUR stereotypes. You can say my reaction to reading the GJP is a stereotype of all frat kids, but it is based upon the testimony of these boys from their own mouths. Moreover, they have not been heard from yet, so their explanation might move my view of it also.

You, on the other hand, show no evidence of knowing anything about this situation other than what you have already assumed based upon your stereotype of frat boys--you know that they are honest strivers who seek no special favors and only wish to get ahead through hard work in a world which has become unmanageable for upper middle class white boys.

Perhaps you have a different explanation other than a sense of entitlement for why, despite one kid wanting to call 911, they shoved him around and did not call. If so, I would like to hear it. I think it was, in a way, an honest mistake, in that they never figured things could go that badly for people like them. That is entitlement, my friend, regardless of how stereotypical it seems to call it that.

Larry: I would readily admit that some of the information that has come out in the GJP is, to say the least, troubling. I don't claim to have all of the facts, but I can tell you that the GJP does not present all of the facts, either. I'm pretty sure you know full well how grand jury indictments work, and that they are typically devoid of exculpatory information.

If these cases end up being tried in court (rather than in the media, as Stacy Parks Miller seems intent on doing), the issue of the kid's alcohol consumption, both the amount and the "voluntariness" of it, will be examined. The proximate cause of his initial fall will also be examined, and there have already been reports that there were two girls at the top of the stairs whom he tried to either climb over or squeeze between when he fell.

I'm pretty confident the initial failure to call 911 was not due to a "sense of entitlement." Would it be all that surprising if we learned that these kids could not distinguish symptoms of significant internal injuries from symptoms of inebriation, and decided not to call 911 because they did not believe his condition was dire? He suffered several additional falls hours later, which no doubt worsened his condition dramatically, and they DID call 911 thereafter. It may well turn out that the real tragedy of not calling 911 immediately was that it would have prevented the additional falls (and resulting head injuries) that ensued in the wee hours.

Regardless of how this particular incident concludes, your attempt to bootstrap it into a general condemnation of fraternities all over the country is a beyond a stretch.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Now, once you feed an underage guy a bunch of liquor, the duty to take charge of him starts to float in there, but generally speaking if you did not feed him drinks, your failure to take care of him makes you a coward, a Bad Samaritan, but not a criminal.

then why do we have a law that says that if someone dies as a result of an illegal act (hazing and providing alcohol to an underage person) it is considered involuntary manslaughter? I don't know how anyone can think that is not a crime. Perhaps it because these are white and from affluent or middle class background. I bet people wouldn't be going to the lengths defending these kids and saying it not criminal if it the setting was different.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Wow, you still haven't admitted to any preexisting bias toward fraternities and just keep doubling down with your opinions. I don't necessarily disagree that this may be the end of fraternities, but "special access"? The alumni association has special access. The debate team has special access. As usual, you use a broad brush of accusation.

Personally, I have always been troubled by hazing and hierarchies of groups. However, I realize that they permeate everything we do. Fraternity hazing is modeled after Mason rituals. Soldiers have boot camp. Doctors do residencies with 24 hour shifts. Lawyers do 7 year associative gigs before being considered for partnership. Professors do years of associate teaching and ass kissing before being considered for tenure. Larry I believe is a personal injury attorney. If he had a big case or two, I am sure he gladly accepted the moniker of "Superlawyer" for his advertising. I am certain he is a member of the American Trial Lawyers Association which has very special access to politicians. Life changes after Little League and fraternities are just sort of an optional part of those changes. The Animal House image just makes fraternities an easy and popular target.

The difference in the Beta case is alcohol in initiation. Universities have outlawed that while trying to wink with regard to regular parties. Initiation drinking seems to be where most of the tragedies occur. Yet it still goes on. Is it culture or privilege or stupidity or tradition or what? Sometimes kids are just kids and sometimes they are just mean to other kids. It is a lot more complicated than any argument here or story in the media.

Would suggest 'boot camp' is more like 'training' than hazing, but carry on....

 

[PSUMATT85]

All the students have special access to the University leadership? The ordinary apartment dweller does not have a "council" which argues his interests (and the interests of those similarly situated) to the University leadership like the IFC. Why is the University involved in a "task force" to address what are clear, off-campus violations of University policy? Aside from the fact that the "task force" looks like a pretend structure to mime they are doing something about the problem while actually doing nothing.

It may be agued that once PSU undertook the responsibility to do something about this problem, and failed to do anything about it, it became liable for the resulting harm. Just not worth it. Pretty tired of seeing the University throw money at problems caused by others.

Ever hear of OTIS dem?

Your responses continue to get more comical.

Do you have a window air conditioner?

 

[demlion]

Ever hear of OTIS dem?

Your responses continue to get more comical.

Do you have a window air conditioner?

task force to deal with OTIS's criminal misconduct?

 

[demlion]

Larry: I would readily admit that some of the information that has come out in the GJP is, to say the least, troubling. I don't claim to have all of the facts, but I can tell you that the GJP does not present all of the facts, either. I'm pretty sure you know full well how grand jury indictments work, and that they are typically devoid of exculpatory information.

If these cases end up being tried in court (rather than in the media, as Stacy Parks Miller seems intent on doing), the issue of the kid's alcohol consumption, both the amount and the "voluntariness" of it, will be examined. The proximate cause of his initial fall will also be examined, and there have already been reports that there were two girls at the top of the stairs whom he tried to either climb over or squeeze between when he fell.

I'm pretty confident the initial failure to call 911 was not due to a "sense of entitlement." Would it be all that surprising if we learned that these kids could not distinguish symptoms of significant internal injuries from symptoms of inebriation, and decided not to call 911 because they did not believe his condition was dire? He suffered several additional falls hours later, which no doubt worsened his condition dramatically, and they DID call 911 thereafter. It may well turn out that the real tragedy of not calling 911 immediately was that it would have prevented the additional falls (and resulting head injuries) that ensued in the wee hours.

Regardless of how this particular incident concludes, your attempt to bootstrap it into a general condemnation of fraternities all over the country is a beyond a stretch.

They were told, HOURS before they ever called 911, that they ought to call 911. One man's testimony is that he got shoved around and told to butt out for saying that. Seems like you are just believing what you want to believe from the GJP. Sounds biased to me.

BTW, I was on the radio today and the host DID say he called his son who is a frat President within hours of hearing the news that Tim Piazza had died. Seems this Dad just wanted to check that his son's frat was following all the rules on this stuff.

 

[PSUMATT85]

task force to deal with OTIS's criminal misconduct?

Fine

But your moving goal posts again. Your statement was that the average apartment dweller does not have the access to university leadership that IFC does. That is patently false similar when you tried to make the claim that the other students don't have dorm floor privileges like sororities.

Do you have partial ownership of a gulf stream at Teterboro?

 

[BobPSU92]

Please take this opportunity TO. BE. OUTRAGED.

 

[demlion]

Ever hear of OTIS dem?

Your responses continue to get more comical.

Do you have a window air conditioner?

Yeah, I did. Its not on the list. https://studentaffairs.psu.edu/hub/studentorgs/orgdirectory/search.aspx

 

[demlion]

Fine

But your moving goal posts again. Your statement was that the average apartment dweller does not have the access to university leadership that IFC does. That is patently false similar when you tried to make the claim that the other students don't have dorm floor privileges like sororities.

Do you have partial ownership of a gulf stream at Teterboro?

If I am running a University, and I have to set up a Task Force to deal with criminal misconduct by a student org's member groups, then I am running out of patience a long time ago. Not worth the candle.

Check it out in Boulder CO; http://www.dailycamera.com/cu-news/ci_30370379/one-year-later-no-fraternities-have-chosen-affiliate

 

[psulax3]

Fine

But your moving goal posts again. Your statement was that the average apartment dweller does not have the access to university leadership that IFC does. That is patently false similar when you tried to make the claim that the other students don't have dorm floor privileges like sororities.

Do you have partial ownership of a gulf stream at Teterboro?

If I am running a University, and I have to set up a Task Force to deal with criminal misconduct by a student org's member groups, then I am running out of patience a long time ago. Not worth the candle.

Wasn't there a task force set up by our beloved BOT a few years ago? Maybe we ought to shut down football while we have the pitchforks out.