I am right now - since you reminded me.56? That's all? I thought you were a lot older.
Did you happen to read the Burroughs interview?
I have read most all of the GJP. Travesty born of entitlement.
- Thread starter demlion
- Start date
Not sure insulting Lafayette is appropriate here nor making blanket generalizations about groups of people (fraternity members). If I recall correctly, we were all quite upset with blanket generalizations of all Penn Staters over the last six years.
It is mega
creepy that he lives there. I would fire him for having that stuff happen on his watch.
all of you making generalizations about EVERYONE that is greek or has been greek shows you have learned nothing and would have been one of those piling on penn state for the last 6 years.
Already knew how that stereotype thing worked. You cannot bother me with YOUR stereotypes. You can say my reaction to reading the GJP is a stereotype of all frat kids, but it is based upon the testimony of these boys from their own mouths. Moreover, they have not been heard from yet, so their explanation might move my view of it also.
You, on the other hand, show no evidence of knowing anything about this situation other than what you have already assumed based upon your stereotype of frat boys--you know that they are honest strivers who seek no special favors and only wish to get ahead through hard work in a world which has become unmanageable for upper middle class white boys.
Perhaps you have a different explanation other than a sense of entitlement for why, despite one kid wanting to call 911, they shoved him around and did not call. If so, I would like to hear it. I think it was, in a way, an honest mistake, in that they never figured things could go that badly for people like them. That is entitlement, my friend, regardless of how stereotypical it seems to call it that.
So, who in this thread has made a generalization about ALL Greek kids? I have confined my comments to those Greek kids who are alleged to have caused this young man's death.
Let me ask you, was it cowardly or not to fail to call 911?
What blanket generalization about all frat kids? Please pint it out. This was about these kids, mostly from their own testimony.
demlion, I know that in a civil case if you are the one who created the peril or hazard that created the need for emergency services, you can be considered negligent for not calling 911. Are there circumstances in criminal proceedings where an individual could be considered negligent for not calling 911? Is it possible to apply the "duty to rescue" to this criminal case? Surely, Tom Kline will use it in wrongful death claim to come in the civil proceedings.
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Well we are all painfully familiar with the mandatory reporter laws, where even if you just walk in on something, you have a duty to report. That is the exception, not the rule.
But you have hit what I think is the important consideration: did the person, by committing a crime (furnishing alcohol) take on a duty to report that the kid was hurt as a result? Pretty sure the criminal law WILL stretch that far, but it will be a case-by-case sortout.
Under this theory, the fellow pledges or bid-acceptors or whatever they call them, may not have any liability except what a stranger would have.
It's typical of any groups or newsworthy events. The few bad apples or bad incidents are what sticks out the most. One bad incident or event will stick with people more than the good news.
Not getting in the middle of your fight, but would like to add something.
As a health nut and health care provider, I am STUNNED by the use of cigarettes in our youth - STUNNED. With all the data, evidence, Hospital statistics, videos of people with cancer imploring people to quit or never start smoking, we STILL have teenagers deciding to smoke. It baffles my mind.
Why do I bring this up? Well, what you and I consider "common sense", others just don't "get it".
You calling 911 is simply "common sense". Even doing what drug addicts sometimes do and drive them to an ER, drop them on the entrance and drive quickly away eluded them.
I'm sure fear of the cops played a role. But, your use of common sense is too logical, sad as that sounds.
Even "strong arming" the one kid who wanted to call 911 is typical. The voice of reason usually is drowned out by the stronger or majority.
Anyway, although I agree with you. I think that your reasoned intelligent brain prevents you from thinking like an idiot. And, that's what people who pick up smoking (for example) or can't figure out to call 911 are...idiots.
I am not going to get in a pissing match with you. You began the thread about Tim living somewhere where there was a good chance of their being underage drinking/sexual assaults. You also mentioned parents calling their sons to talk to them about this event (smart of them, so I agree with you) but then throw in a comment about how "daddy, can't save you..."
To be clear, this is an absolute tragedy that could have been prevented and we will certainly see bad characters. After the last six years, I personally do not like to lump everyone in the same basket.
There is a difference between a lack of common sense and cowardice. One is a simple lack of mental development. the other is a character flaw.
While it's an odd choice and not one I would make, if Abbey spared no expense in the renovation and if he handpicked Bream to be a live-in, then I'm sure the advisor quarters were sick. A very small part of me can see the draw.
That is ALSO taken from the ACTUAL testimony of these frat members. Turns out there was a 100 percent chance of underage drinking because despite the prohibition, they were buying alcohol! Jesus! If a rough part of town has lots of murders, you might feel unsafe there and be more cautious. 6 handle jugs of liquor, 15 boxes of wine? Were they drinking?
I think I already explained that I watched two of my college classmates discussing that matter with their kids this past weekend. I know I told my kids, do not get me in the spot where I have to go apologize for or try to excuse or pay for your behavior, or you will see how little entitlement to an education you have. I was told the same thing.
I knew Daddy could not fix anything, and I knew he would likely refuse even if he could. I knew that in 8th grade. These kids seem not to know it. that is what entitlement IS.
Ah, got it. The benefit of hindsight. If only Tim was omnipotent and knew the dry house was not to stay dry. And for the record, I find it odd that Tim was living at the house. I do appreciate the murder analogy though.
That's what I have a hard time with. I feel like they should have some type of culpability, but I'm not sure how much?
The kid took a horrible fall. How hard is it to get someone to drive him to an ER and say he was drinking at a party, fell down a flight of stairs, and I thought it was serious enough to bring him here?
It's not like he OD'd on heroin.
Dem
Read your posts for the last 3 weeks, and you have made more generalizations about fraternity( and sorority as well) members than objective comments
Look, maybe it was a deal where he lived there in a totally separate apartment with a separate entrance and no interaction with the guys in the frat. If so, then that might be explicable. But if you have been around guys in their teens and early 20s, and the frat has a HISTORY of these violations in the past which caused it to be ordered to be a dry frat, nobody who has been around college students in the teens and 20s is gullible enough to believe that problem isn't just right around the corner.
Point out the ones in this thread, Matt. THESE kids have done at least what each of him has testified he did. Are those generalizations?
I don't know anything about this case.....but forgive me if I never trust a Grand Jury Presentment. I seem to remember one that convinced the world that Jerry Sandusky was having anal sex with a "little boy" in the Lasch Building.
I do know that a young man lost his life and it is a tragedy. Didn't anyone else have flash backs of a grand standing AG with the poster board and a press conference designed to poison the jury pool?
I do know that a young man lost his life and it is a tragedy. Didn't anyone else have flash backs of a grand standing AG with the poster board and a press conference designed to poison the jury pool?
I did. But Tim Piazza is DEAD. There is video, many minutes of it, showing him as he was DYING. It is not the final word. But some of it is undeniable.
I understand. I have learned to wait until the accused presents their side of the case. I guess I'm just an old fool, but I always thought that's how it is supposed to work.
Matt was exactly correct, Larry- it's been obvious for some time that you have some personal ax to grind on this topic. I generally find you to have a reasonable POV, but you've been in left field on this for awhile now.
And I say that believing that this particular group deserves whatever ill is coming their way.
Laws are culture. First thing is you take the illegality away so it isn't forbidden fruit. Drinking age is 21, which is higher than other countries. Second thing is parents teach their children moderation. They do this by making alcohol available to kids at a young age so it isn't such a big deal. But can you imagine the outrage if a parent gave a kid a beer or hard alcohol.
I would like you to watch the scene in the movie The Accused, from 1:07:00 until 1:18:00 (the RAPE scene). EDIT: I think in the imbedded link, it starts around the 70.0 mark
Now, after the MM fiasco and the current fraternity death, please tell me your thoughts.
Within a few minutes, lives can change - forever. My advice, when you talk to your kids (or whoever), when their internal voice starts sounding "bells and whistles", CALL SOMEONE RIGHT AWAY. LISTEN TO THAT VOICE TELLING YOU TO CALL SOMEONE. DON'T IGNORE THAT VOICE SOUNDING THE ALARM.
Before I start, I will say I am a former Greek at PSU but I'm not here to defend the system. What frustrates me in all this is here we go again with a bunch of parties attempting to not let a good crisis go to waste. First, we have a DA up for reelection making political theater of the charges and the presentment. Using the victims family as tools. The presentment paints huge generalities of the Greek system based on the testimony of a few non-Betas. Then we have Barron and Sims using this to hammer the Greek letter system again using generalities. Barron's speach last week already had these guys convicted and heading to jail. Also, we have some in the community and on here taking the chance to hit the Greeks for their own reasons.
Apparently we didn't learn a damn thing from the Sandusky event. The presentment is a one sided document. Can we please let the legal system play out? I share the same disgust as many of you from reading the presentment. If it is true, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But let's hear their side first.
As for Tim Bream, I think the university is in on this protecting him. DA Miller when asked if he was charged refused to even use his name. Then she said under PA law, even if he knew about it, he was under no obligation to do anything. Huh? How much has PSU donated to her campaign? I have known Tim since we were students in the same major. While we have run into each other over the years, we are not friends. I find it very odd he had no idea that drinking was occuring in the house and not just this event. If he was the chapter advisor, will Beta take action against him for having no knowledge of all the drinking going on for years at the chapter house? Will this be another PSU black eye?
My bottom line is that a young man has died. If accurate, the term brotherhood means nothing at Beta Theta Pi. No one gave a shit about anybody but themselves. They sat by and watched a young man die.
Unfortunately, the Greek system will be painted with a broad brush as all bad because of this.
As for the Greek system, does it needs cleaned up, yes. Is it going to be fixed from some top down edicts from Sims and Barron, no. There needs to be real communication and willingness to cooperate by both parties. Penn State will be a lesser place without its Greek system but it needs help. I hope it will survive.
I hope Tim Piazzas family can find peace in all of this. As I watched my son graduate from med school last week, I thought of his family. They will never see the dreams they had for their son come true. They will never share in his life and successes in the future. I can't possibly imagine the strength they need to just get through each day knowing if it were not for his senseless death he would be here for them.
As a State College native, a PSU alum, a Greek, the great grandson of a former fraternity house mother I'm just sick. I hate to see another event tearing my school and hometown apart. It just sucks that we can no longer come together as a community and solve problems. But rather everyone picks their side and refuses to listen to the other.
Apparently we didn't learn a damn thing from the Sandusky event. The presentment is a one sided document. Can we please let the legal system play out? I share the same disgust as many of you from reading the presentment. If it is true, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But let's hear their side first.
As for Tim Bream, I think the university is in on this protecting him. DA Miller when asked if he was charged refused to even use his name. Then she said under PA law, even if he knew about it, he was under no obligation to do anything. Huh? How much has PSU donated to her campaign? I have known Tim since we were students in the same major. While we have run into each other over the years, we are not friends. I find it very odd he had no idea that drinking was occuring in the house and not just this event. If he was the chapter advisor, will Beta take action against him for having no knowledge of all the drinking going on for years at the chapter house? Will this be another PSU black eye?
My bottom line is that a young man has died. If accurate, the term brotherhood means nothing at Beta Theta Pi. No one gave a shit about anybody but themselves. They sat by and watched a young man die.
Unfortunately, the Greek system will be painted with a broad brush as all bad because of this.
As for the Greek system, does it needs cleaned up, yes. Is it going to be fixed from some top down edicts from Sims and Barron, no. There needs to be real communication and willingness to cooperate by both parties. Penn State will be a lesser place without its Greek system but it needs help. I hope it will survive.
I hope Tim Piazzas family can find peace in all of this. As I watched my son graduate from med school last week, I thought of his family. They will never see the dreams they had for their son come true. They will never share in his life and successes in the future. I can't possibly imagine the strength they need to just get through each day knowing if it were not for his senseless death he would be here for them.
As a State College native, a PSU alum, a Greek, the great grandson of a former fraternity house mother I'm just sick. I hate to see another event tearing my school and hometown apart. It just sucks that we can no longer come together as a community and solve problems. But rather everyone picks their side and refuses to listen to the other.
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OT rant coming up here.
If he did OD on heroin, someone could simply call 911, a policeman or EMT would show up, administer a shot of nalaxone, no questions asked. Then politely mention options for treatment or further health care and leave when the patient vociferously declines.
Sorry, but I just read an article about narcan treatment in our own county-- amid the experts saying punishment is not the answer, addicts need treatment, it was mentioned that in the 18 cases where nalaxone was administered by one police department, all but but one of the patients declined treatment. The other one was so far gone they had to take him to a hospital. Little doubt all of these will be repeat customers, until the last time when it's too late.
Not sure why there is such empathy for abuse of one illicit substance while use of just about every other has strong campaigns against them.
Dem, your response is very interesting. You did not generalize in this thread. But that is a little like Michy posting about " Never said anything negative about any Paterno", and then adding " in this thread".
I agree the Beta's actions are deplorable and what we know indicate punishment, but you seem to be drawing much more into this when you can.
At what point does "no hazing" mean "no hazing?" Was Beta the only frat still doing this lame bs?
What is the IFC (remember, THEY joined together in a group) prepared to do to set the good frats apart from the yahoos? You don't wanna be lumped in? Ok, maybe there is something the good frats are doing to set themselves apart here? Cause what I see is a closing of the ranks. Has IFC condemned the hazing? I honestly do not know.
Through their own feel good policies, the university created this "handle of vodka" culture. Maybe it's time they own it, and try to fix it.
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Not sure that matters anymore. A jury can make anyone a criminal these days--even if they did not break any law.
They should have started by not feeding an underage kid a ton of booze in a very short period of time. I am no prude when it comes to drinking in college - I did it underage in both high school and college but what they did was just stupid and especially since they had issues before at the house. This is not a Frat thing either - I am in no way against Frat's. Had a lot of friends in them and used to drink a lot of beer at their parties but this kids BAC was frightening and yes he could have said I'm not doing this so he also shares some responsibility for his own actions as an adult.
I don't know why Larry is denying his bias here since I believe he has stated before that he is a proud GDI. By denying that bias he is exhibiting behavior similar to so many other people condemned in this Board, such as Big 10 refs and, well I don't even know where to start in the Sandusky affair. Perhaps it is just the lawyer in him.
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