I think --- throughout life --- stupid people are more likely to act entitled. Which makes it harder to dis-entangle the two.
But I do agree: this behavior from the fraternity brothers was more stupidity vs. privilege.
I have read most all of the GJP. Travesty born of entitlement.
- Thread starter demlion
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I think --- throughout life --- stupid people are more likely to act entitled. Which makes it harder to dis-entangle the two.
But I do agree: this behavior from the fraternity brothers was more stupidity vs. privilege.
I learned a lesson about Greek life many years ago in school when I had a Tri-Delt in one of my classes and I got to know her. Really, really nice gal--not at all like the stereotypes--and quite nice to me. We were suffering thru Herr Dr. Keune's Mystery Hour (a prof who mumbled into his notes--in German). They're just people.
My daughter was in a service sorority at PSU. Sometimes people in Greek Organizations are people we love. But they never had to set up any task forces to monitor her sorority's criminal misconduct, and that makes this entirely different, especially given that we already got whipped to the tune of a hundred million or so.
Yeah, people get nasty quick-appearing bruising on their torso all the time after drinking (oh, and falling down 15 stairs). Oh, and the deleted texts that they had a problem right after he fell the first time and the brother who was assaulted for suggesting they call 911 at that time. Yes, a push into a wall is assault AND battery.
But they did intelligently call 911 a mere 42 minutes after bringing him up from the basement again with blood running down his face, ragged breathing, and rigidity in his limbs.
I've even read on some other sites (Reddit has a few threads) that brothers that morning as EMTs arrived were still not divulging full details in order for the paramedics to provide correct treatment.
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You still haven't admitted you always hated fraternities. Is that because you are a lawyer and are trained to never admit anything?
Your personal bias doesn't matter in the end. However, you have shown everyone that you can't necessarily be trusted to be honest because you will defend your position and your position only. Doesn't that trouble you?
So in the same post, you plead for patience to hear both sides, but also go on to jump to conclusions about the university protecting Bream? Seems you are contradicting yourself a bit, no?
FWIW, I completely agree about taking the presentment with a grain of salt. However we'd also be silly to ignore that there appears to be far more evidence here than in the Sandusky example. It's still possible the presentment is grandstanding and we'll find out when the video evidence goes public, but it's not unreasonable to put more stock in this presentment than the Sandusky presentment on the surface. On the other hand I've seen almost no information about Bream other than a statement that he wasn't notified of this incident. It seems like far more of a stretch to start accusing him of anything, based on pretty much no evidence.
Yea, Reddit does have some interesting insight to say the least... here's a couple quotes:
"Good. I was involved in Greek life at PSU and while I never saw anything like this, IFC definitely turned a blind eye to all the underage drinking and "hazing lite" that was going on. As a 18-21 year old I thought it was fun but there are so many things that can go wrong in an environment like that.
Our chapter (sorority) was actually really strict about no hazing but I definitely heard some pretty intense pledging stories from the frats. At our socials with the frats, we were required to have 2 "sober sisters" present. IFC/ PHC would come around really early in the night and have the sober sisters and whoever was in charge of the social for the frat sign a form. There was always plenty of evidence of binge and underage drinking in plain sight when they came and I never saw them do anything more than ask for the signatures and leave.
Again our chapter was actually pretty good with this stuff but it was so easy to just skate by the rules. I'm glad actual consequences are happening here because something does need to change or else things like this will keep happening.
As a side note I am REALLY surprised to hear it was Beta that got caught up in all this. When I was a student they were really goody-two-shoes because they had JUST got their charter and house back with a whole new group of guys after the former chapter destroyed the multi-million dollar house. They were really strict about the dry house thing then, our sorority tried to set up socials with them and they would only have dry socials with us. This was only like 5 years ago, it's clearly a different crowd there now.
The whole situation is so sad and so easily preventable. I do hope this changes Greek life at PSU"
and
"This may be an unpopular opinion, but events like this are bound to happen unless Penn State changes their stance on student alcohol abuse. While Pennsylvania has a good Samaritan law, Penn State does not fully adhere to it. Their own website states that if you personally make the call to help someone in duress, you will still have to attend alcohol classes. In addition, this is not expanded to cover organizations at all. Hindsight, you obviously make the call, but in the eyes of some of the brothers present, if they call an ambulance then the University knows they were hazing, providing to minors, and more. Past events have shown this is enough to have their organization kicked off campus, or at least hit with serious probation. If the kid ends up fine, then they did that for basically nothing
Looking back, of course you value human life over a fraternity. In the moment tho, no one expects the kid to die and you care about protecting an organization you have given hundreds of hours to. If they really want to make sure this doesn't happen again, they need to make Organizational Amnesty a thing and given them a reason to make the call when in doubt."
My guess is, however, that there have been task forces looking into the increasing problem of binge drinking in American universities. So by the standards you are noting, should we then rid universities of students?
I'm not being 100% facetious here, actually, as I've run into that attitude when I lived in the tOSU campus area. Had a lot of folks on our street who loved living in the university community--but absolutely hated the students and were trying everything they could to keep the students off "their" street (I was living 2 blocks from Lane and High). Of course, they originally bought there because the prices were a little lower due to the students and because they loved all the cultural activities the campus offered--which would not be there were it not for the students. The funniest one was the one set of residents' concern about students renting houses en masse: by a Sikh community who were not students but essentially living communally too--but they did not see the similarities at all.
That said, I do share your concern about possible liability for PSU--even if they have done nothing wrong, juries can still award large sums of money. But I'd not throw the baby out with the bathwater either. One bad frat does not mean all are bad.
"They were told." You make it sound like an Oracle was involved. One kid (Kordell Davis) apparently said they should call 911. (At least he says now that he did so, and I have no particular reason to disbelieve him.) Other kids were of the opinion that Piazza was merely drunk, and should be allowed to sleep it off. He had fallen exactly once at that point, and his injuries were largely internal. There are reports that Piazza conversed with fellow members after being carried up to the couch, and that he said he was OK.
Court testimony will likely illuminate the extent of his injuries, the symptoms he was manifesting, whether he said anything, and whether his symptoms would have prompted a reasonable person to conclude that a call to 911 was necessary. We know now, with the benefit of hindsight, that a call should definitely have been placed, but the legal inquiry will focus on what they did then, under the circumstances that presented themselves at that time.
If you want to proclaim I am biased because I pointed out that the trial(s) may disclose facts other than those presented by Stacy Parks Miller in her press conference, fine. Run with that, dude.
Did you see the post about the guy who knows one of the EMTs who answered the call? Said that the EMTs and cops were furious at the Beta onlookers with shouting matches going on as they realized this kid was as good as dead in the shape they saw him in.
Of course, it's Reddit, but still. Not a huge leap from the facts that are already out there.
If you read the GJP, there were actually 2 others besides the guy doing media that suggested calling 911 that night.
What is your point? Colorado wanted to crack down on frats and the frats all went off campus. NOW the school has ZERO control over them and the school wants them all to affiliate with the school. The frats are not interested.
Memo for PSU: PSU fraternities could do the same.
Not coming from you. I've watched this University get its rep destroyed by JS TSM Corbett and OGBOT. Just one time I want to see PSU ahead of something, not mopping up and paying damages.
Uh...their zoning exemption depends on their affiliation w/ the University. Take that away, and you are taking away their properties.
The time to get ahead of it was decades earlier. You don't market your way out of a child rape scandal or a death. THe OGHC should have went to the police.
When you imply that because one fraternity did something all the others are doing the same thing, you're generalizing. If any others are hazing or breaking rules re: alcohol, then let someone make a complaint to the proper authority and let it be handled through the proper channels.And the same goddamn thing needs to be done for everyone living in the dorms and apartments downtown and across the valley too.
Please. Make it happen right away. Liability problem solved.
Again you jump in and think your ideas solve everything. Wrong. Here is what is going to happen. In the arms race to attract students, universities are building posh "apartments" with all the amenities one could dream of. This is the trend across the country and could have killed fraternities anyway. Who wants to live in a small room with 2 or 3 roommates and communal showers when mom and dad are willing to foot the bill for a condo with a pool, workout room and barbeque area. Now you are really talking about entitlement.
Anyway, many schools are getting into the business of building these resort spas because the consultants say this is the best way to attract kids. If you kill fraternities and PSU obtains some of the real estate (already have Beta), this will happen. Now you have fancy dorms with perfect party atmospheres open to all age groups. Liability suddenly reappears when the first drunk kid drowns.
You are an attorney who makes a living looking for loopholes to find liability. Please don't say there is an easy solution where none exists.
Have you been to Morgantown recently? Sunny side is gone and replaced with high end apartments owned by WVU. Dual goal of attracting students and getting rid of the bar area.
You might want to read the story YOU posted.
Can you explain why Colorado is so desperate to get the fraternities to reaffiliate?
Sunny Side is gone...BOOOOO. I think I had good times there...a bit foggy though.
