If Alabama wins tonight, is Saban the best ever?

[bmw199]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

Edit: Somehow I totally forgot Bowden. His 90s success, while only resulting in 2 national titles, was incredibly consistent with top 10 finishes.

 

[BobPSU92]

Joe is the best ever because of how he did it.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

I don't know if they did recruiting rankings 'back in the day', but what do you think Paterno, Bryant, Rockne, etc. would do with these recruiting classes?

Alabama Recruiting Rankings (Rivals) - Since Saban Arrived:

#10
#1
#1
#5
#1
#1
#1
#1
#2
#11 (Currently, will likely finish Top 5)

But, no one will care, and Saban will be considered the best all time, even though he's also had the best talent.

 

[Nashville Lion]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

I think saban might be the best. I think it might be tougher today with the limits on scholarships and all the outside distractions of television and social media. I think the Mount Rushmore is probably Saban, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden and Bear Bryant

 

[LionDeNittany]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

I think even if they don't win tonight he is the best ever.
And regarding Midnighter's comments, recruiting is 80% of being a college coach. Jimmy's and the Joe's.

He could have done this at LSU had he stuck around.

LdN

 

[Mixolydian]

I don't know if they did recruiting rankings 'back in the day', but what do you think Paterno, Bryant, Rockne, etc. would do with these recruiting classes?

Alabama Recruiting Rankings (Rivals) - Since Saban Arrived:

#10
#1
#1
#5
#1
#1
#1
#1
#2
#11 (Currently, will likely finish Top 5)

But, no one will care, and Saban will be considered the best all time, even though he's also had the best talent.

Consistently recruiting like that is a big part of the reason he is in consideration for the best of all time. I would hate to have to argue against Saban being the best.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

I think even if they don't win tonight he is the best ever.
And regarding Midnighter's comments, recruiting is 80% of being a college coach. Jimmy's and the Joe's.

He could have done this at LSU had he stuck around.

LdN

And like BMW199 pointed out, there's a more clear cut mechanism to determine National Champions these days than there was when Joe and others were in their prime. Still, Saban was average at Michigan State, which is what I think of him as far as X's and O's go. He's an outstanding recruiter. When in the SEC.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Consistently recruiting like that is a big part of the reason he is in consideration for the best of all time. I would hate to have to argue against Saban being the best.

34-24-1 and 0/3 in bowls at Michigan State (he quit before MSU played in the Citrus Bowl his final, and best year).

 

[Art]

And like BMW199 pointed out, there's a more clear cut mechanism to determine National Champions these days than there was when Joe was in his prime. Still, Saban was average at Michigan State, which is what I think of him as far as X's and O's go. He's an outstanding recruiter. When in the SEC.

MSU was just coming out of NCAA sanctions when Saban took over. Nothing as severe as what was imposed on PSU, but sanctions nonetheless.

 

[Marshall30]

Saban is a cheat, nothing more. The guy couldn't win in the BigTen...why?

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

MSU was just coming out of NCAA sanctions when Saban took over. Nothing as severe as what was imposed on PSU, but sanctions nonetheless.

What were they? I know they had to forfeit some games - what other punishments did they get?

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

34-24-1 and 0/3 in bowls at Michigan State (he quit before MSU played in the Citrus Bowl that year).

Also, he lost the three bowl games by a combined total of 85 points. Never won the Big Ten, yet wins the SEC in his second year at LSU.

 

[fairgambit]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

No offense. It's a fair question, and at one time I might have given it some serious thought, but given what the NCAA has become, with it's selective rules enforcement and uneven punishment, I really don't care. I will not watch the game tonight. I prefer to watch my professional games on Sunday.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Let's see Saban win a National Championship at a place like Cal (or Duke, or UCLA, or Virginia, or a host of other schools that are not set up to facilitate football success), and I will readily vote for him. That may sound harsh, but my essential point is that the CFB system, as it is presently structured, gives a small coterie of schools a huge advantage in this competition. Saban is a beneficiary of that. If Alabama somehow manages to become a lot more academically selective and a lot less willing to overlook the academic deficiencies of some of its football players, then I will give Saban (or others like him) a whole lot more credit.

 

[pandaczar12]

I think saban might be the best. I think it might be tougher today with the limits on scholarships and all the outside distractions of television and social media. I think the Mount Rushmore is probably Saban, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden and Bear Bryant

It was pretty awesome to be at the PSU/Bama game in Tuscaloosa, when Bowden, Paterno, and Saban were at midfield talking.

 

[cment]

Saban will probably be considered the best.

 

[Marshall30]

Saban will probably be considered the best.

Good for him and the BS.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Let's see Saban win a National Championship at a place like Cal (or Duke, or UCLA, or Virginia, or a host of other schools that are not set up to facilitate football success), and I will readily vote for him. That may sound harsh, but my essential point is that the CFB system, as it is presently structured, gives a small coterie of schools a huge advantage in this competition. Saban is a beneficiary of that. If Alabama somehow manages to become a lot more academically selective and a lot less willing to overlook the academic deficiencies of some of its football players, then I will give Saban (or others like him) a whole lot more credit.

Or, put him in the NFL where you can't pick every single player you want and all the teams have roughly the same talent....

Wait, never mind.

 

[bamasota]

I think even if they don't win tonight he is the best ever.
And regarding Midnighter's comments, recruiting is 80% of being a college coach. Jimmy's and the Joe's.

He could have done this at LSU had he stuck around.

LdN

4 NCs spread over 2 different schools in a 10-year span is pretty special. Like you said, even if he doesn't win tonight, he is in a very small group of coaches that have had similar success. Hope he hangs around a bit longer but if he left after tonight he'd still enjoy legendary coach status.

As far as the best ever, that will always be a matter of opinion. Too many great coaches to choose from.

 

[Marshall30]

4 NCs spread over 2 different schools in a 10-year span is pretty special. Like you said, even if he doesn't win tonight, he is in a very small group of coaches that have had similar success. Hope he hangs around a bit longer but if he left after tonight he'd still enjoy legendary coach status.

As far as the best ever, that will always be a matter of opinion. Too many great coaches to choose from.

"CHEAT"

 

[bmw199]

I don't know if they did recruiting rankings 'back in the day', but what do you think Paterno, Bryant, Rockne, etc. would do with these recruiting classes?

Alabama Recruiting Rankings (Rivals) - Since Saban Arrived:

#10
#1
#1
#5
#1
#1
#1
#1
#2
#11 (Currently, will likely finish Top 5)

But, no one will care, and Saban will be considered the best all time, even though he's also had the best talent.

No offense. It's a fair question, and at one time I might have given it some serious thought, but given what the NCAA has become, with it's selective rules enforcement and uneven punishment, I really don't care. I will not watch the game tonight. I prefer to watch my professional games on Sunday.

You definitely make fair points, which is what I was trying to say that within the context of this era, it's still really impressive. Yes, he gets to coach in a league and for a team where there are no rules on who he can recruit. He also gets the advantage of having a system (even in the BCS era) that more accurately declares a national champ. But then Bryant and Paterno also got to coach in times where they could take as many players as they wanted, making the possibility of finding diamonds in the rough more likely. Also, I don't really believe there was as much parity in college football when they coached as there is today.

As Bob said, no one did like Paterno, so of course he will always be the best in the minds of people who value the "student athlete" perception of college football.

 

[fairgambit]

You definitely make fair points, which is what I was trying to say that within the context of this era, it's still really impressive. Yes, he gets to coach in a league and for a team where there are no rules on who he can recruit. He also gets the advantage of having a system (even in the BCS era) that more accurately declares a national champ. But then Bryant and Paterno also got to coach in times where they could take as many players as they wanted, making the possibility of finding diamonds in the rough more likely.

As Bob said, no one did like Paterno, so of course he will always be the best in the minds of people who value the "student athlete" perception of college football.

There is no doubt your question will be on the minds of many as the game unfolds tonight. There was a time when I might have given my opinion in great detail, but those days, for me, have passed, and I will leave his place in history to others.

 

[bmw199]

Saban is a cheat, nothing more. The guy couldn't win in the BigTen...why?

Let's see Saban win a National Championship at a place like Cal (or Duke, or UCLA, or Virginia, or a host of other schools that are not set up to facilitate football success), and I will readily vote for him. That may sound harsh, but my essential point is that the CFB system, as it is presently structured, gives a small coterie of schools a huge advantage in this competition. Saban is a beneficiary of that. If Alabama somehow manages to become a lot more academically selective and a lot less willing to overlook the academic deficiencies of some of its football players, then I will give Saban (or others like him) a whole lot more credit.

Does that make what Meyer is doing/has done even more special? Sure, you can OSU doesn't care about academics anymore than Alabama, but they are still in the Big Ten.

I would actually say that if Meyer went to any of the schools you listed he would be just as successful as he has been everywhere else. Saban definitely takes advantage of where he's at, but he's also maximized the advantage. Everyone in the SEC plays by these rules, yet not everyone wins like this.

 

[Nitt1300]

yes, it does

hell, he could lose and you can still make the case for him

 

[Marshall30]

yes, it does

hell, he could lose and you can still make the case for him

Wrong.

He's a cheat.

 

[Marshall30]

Does that make what Meyer is doing/has done even more special? Sure, you can OSU doesn't care about academics anymore than Alabama, but they are still in the Big Ten.

I would actually say that if Meyer went to any of the schools you listed he would be just as successful as he has been everywhere else. Saban definitely takes advantage of where he's at, but he's also maximized the advantage. Everyone in the SEC plays by these rules, yet not everyone wins like this.

Cheating is cheating.

Period.

 

[bamasota]

Cheating is cheating.

Period.

Attempting to access a rivals site by making up a new username after being banned is also cheating.

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

Does that make what Meyer is doing/has done even more special? Sure, you can OSU doesn't care about academics anymore than Alabama, but they are still in the Big Ten.

I would actually say that if Meyer went to any of the schools you listed he would be just as successful as he has been everywhere else. Saban definitely takes advantage of where he's at, but he's also maximized the advantage. Everyone in the SEC plays by these rules, yet not everyone wins like this.

To me? No. When Meyer and Saban can win consistently with equal or less talent than their opponents, I'll reconsider. And while Bama's recruiting under Saban has likely never been duplicated, Meyer at OSU isn't doing so bad (and he inherited good talent):

2009 - #3
2010 - #25
2011 - #11
2012 - #4
2013 #2 (Meyer's first year)
2014 - #3
2015 - #9

 

[dawgduice]

I think saban might be the best. I think it might be tougher today with the limits on scholarships and all the outside distractions of television and social media. I think the Mount Rushmore is probably Saban, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden and Bear Bryant

I think it is actually easier today. 5 star type players want a clear path to the NFL without school getting in the way. There are only a few programs that fit the bill. Alabama does not break any NCAA rules (as far as I know, who really cares anyhow). They are much like Kentucky in BB. Is Caliperi the best ever ??? Sure why not !!!

The "rules' are the problem. Div1 sports have become "vocational" school programs. To me NOT what "Universities" are supposed to produce. They might as well train plumbers and truck drivers. Hard to see much difference between these programs and the NFL.

 

[Marshall30]

Attempting to access a rivals site by making up a new username after being banned is also cheating.

Take a hike.

 

[Keyser Soze 16801]

The greatest college coach of all time is Joseph Vincent Paterno, a man who stressed academics and won games at an amazing clip.

Saban does a great job of getting young men ready for the NFL. JVP got them ready for life. Which one would you prefer to represent your school?

 

[Ranger Dan]

I don't know if they did recruiting rankings 'back in the day', but what do you think Paterno, Bryant, Rockne, etc. would do with these recruiting classes?

Alabama Recruiting Rankings (Rivals) - Since Saban Arrived:

#10
#1
#1
#5
#1
#1
#1
#1
#2
#11 (Currently, will likely finish Top 5)

But, no one will care, and Saban will be considered the best all time, even though he's also had the best talent.

But recruiting is part of the job... considering this, I'd say that he's in the top 10 of all time coaches. If you use the old "he could beat yours with his and beat his with yours" yardstick then I don't think he'd be as great.

 

[GregInPitt]

No matter what happens tonight I believe he is the best college football cheater coach of all time. Sort of the Bill Belichick of college football. Running 120 players throught your program to field 85 against teams that follow the 85 limit is a prolific advantage. Saban never won big anywhere, got kicked out of the NFL, until he could cheat in the SEC. It's a perfect fit. He lines up a team of bigger, faster players and usually wins. Except when he has to actually make a coaching decision like against Auburn in the iron bowl a couple of years ago when he didn't prepare for a run back of a field goal that was more than probably beyond his FG kicker's range..... That showed me he was a less than average game coach. But still, being the best cheater is something!!

 

[psu00]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

Edit: Somehow I totally forgot Bowden. His 90s success, while only resulting in 2 national titles, was incredibly consistent with top 10 finishes.

Tough to rank coaches through different decades which had different NCAA rules and methods of determining champions. That doesn't even take into account the different standards at schools regarding admission standards and academic (ie remaining eligible) standards.

Saban's obviously been very good at Alabama the past few years but he wasn't always at that level.

At Michigan State (6-5-1, 6-6, 7-5, 6-6, 9-2).

Even at LSU it was sort of hit or miss (8-4, 10-3, 8-5, 13-1 shared NC, 9-3).

At the Dolphins (9-7, 6-10).

When he hit Alabama all the pieces were in place for success (2-6, 12-2, 14-0 NC, 10-3, 12-1 NC, 13-1 NC, 11-2, 12-2, 13-1).

A lot of this depends on where you end up as a coach and the willingness of the university to be 'all in' in terms of giving a football program absolutely everything it wants compared to other universities that don't go to the same degree (with facilities, salaries, admission standards etc). Add in certain 'blue blood' schools with tradition and exposure (like Bama compared to MSU) and things hit on all cylinders. Now, obviously that doesn't take away from Saban being a great coach- just that all the pieces of the puzzle fit together well at Alabama

 

[AWS1022]

He will have 5 national titles. 4 in 7 years, that's just ridiculous. Bear had 6 but it was over 25 years. Joe had 2 with 4 other undefeated/untied seasons and more wins and bowl wins than anyone. Then you have other historical greats (Leahy, Rockne, Bierman, Mckay, Hayes), then you start getting to other guys who had a number of titles in a short amount of time (Osborne, Switzer) and then there is Meyer.

IDK, with modern college football what it is being somewhere 9 years is nearly an eternity and to win 4 titles in that time is just insane. If Meyer were to leave OSU and return to ND in a few years and win another then I'd say 4 titles across 3 schools might trump what Saban has done.

I would accept the argument that there is almost no way to compare what they are doing to Bryant or Paterno because it is such a different dynamic now, but certainly in the context of this era, wow.

Edit: Somehow I totally forgot Bowden. His 90s success, while only resulting in 2 national titles, was incredibly consistent with top 10 finishes.

He's had one undefeated season. In those years where they weren't undefeated, how many NC's would he have won based on the old rules?

 

[Mace54]

The man can recruit. When you have twenty 5 star recruits on that sideline, it's kind of hard not to lose. He gets who he wants. He hires a great staff, and they teach those stud recruits how to execute to perfection. Have to say that his program is the standard of excellence in college football lately. I would love to know their graduation rate. Hundreds of millions of dollars were pumping through the system last night as ESPN had five different coverages for the game, fans were piled into the stadium, and advertisers shot their load. But barely anyone remembers that these are young college men, and they are there for a degree. How many actually succeed at that noble task ?

 

[CDW3333]

34-24-1 and 0/3 in bowls at Michigan State (he quit before MSU played in the Citrus Bowl his final, and best year).

And Bear Bryant was 25-14-2 at Texas A&M before he became head coach at Alabama. Does that mean he was disqualified from being considered the greatest ever?

 

[Marshall30]

Saban and Meyer are cheating bags of shit.

Get over it.

 

[Marshall30]

And Bear Bryant was 25-14-2 at Texas A&M before he became head coach at Alabama. Does that mean he was disqualified from being considered the greatest ever?

Another cheat.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I don't think it's even a question. He has had phenomenal success.