Like I said, only EXTREMELY deluded Pirate fans think that.
Whatever. You can use your stats anyway you'd like and it won't matter. Clemente had superior skills that were as good as anyone in the game. Its already been established that he played in the largest ballpark in the NL for years and hampered his power numbers significantly. He also would likely have played 3-4 more years had he not died in the plane wreck. Had he finished with 3400-3500 hits and closer to 300 HR's, his all time stats would be perhaps more to your acceptance. Clemente seemed to get better with age and his fielding and throwing were as good as there ever was. His 4 batting titles are nothing to sneer at. He had outstanding speed, but rarely attempted to steal bases since that wasn't emphasized on the Pirates during his career. I'm not one who claims he was as good as Willie Mays, but claiming he is perhaps the most overrated all-time player is ignorant of his shortened career.
Here are two articles that come to the opposite conclusion...that Clemente was among the most underrated players of all time.
Nice articles gambit. By the way, the reference to Clemente finishing 2nd to Rico Carty below from Bleacher report in 1970 while hitting .352 is something I remember vividly. What they don't mention in the article is Clemente finished 2nd to Pete Rose in 1969 on the last at bat by Rose, who laid down a bunt to win the NL batting title. Clemente ended up a mere .345 that year. He very nearly had 5 batting titles, but for Rose laying down that bunt to end the season
Clemente with most right-field assists ever, by far
Hey stat geek, leave it alone. First off, I never said he would have 3400-3500 hits or 300 HR's, I stated he would perhaps get near those figures had he played more years since he was still producing and still capable. You've already made your mind up by offensive stats that you site he was an extremely overrated player, while most of it centers around power production numbers. Clemente was clearly one of the top skill players of his era and was 'poetry in motion' on the baseball diamond. That's something that can't be measured by offensive/power stats. He was fleet footed, amazing fielding skills and range, exceptional throwing skills and an explosive line drive machine that sprayed baseballs all over the field with a career average of .317.. That's what people refer to about an all around player, not merely offensive/power production, which is essentially your main argument that he was the most overrated all time player. Yes, Willie Mays had those tools with more power and was the better all round player, but skill set wise Clemente had very few in his class. Have you ever watched some of his highlight reels ? Suggest you watch some (1971 World Series as an example) and you may understand why his skill set was considered one of the best. My guess is you'll refer to some offensive/power stats and continue to claim he wasn't all that great a player. So be it.
I saw Clemente play (yes, I'm that old). I love Cutch but he will NEVER come close to Clemente...sorry.
Repeating the same opinion over and over without any facts doesn't make it so. Again, the only people who think Clemente was better than Mays are (1) rabid Pirate fans or (2) baseball illiterates. But I repeat myself.
Yeah, he only has facts on his side.
OK, so maybe I'll give you that. Clemente had an amazing arm. Although fielding stats can be misleading, he led the league 5 times in outfield assists and was second 4 times, NL records. Although he played 4 fewer years, he had more career assists than Mays, 269-233. Only Carl Yaz led more times (7) but he played in a very small LF.
No, not as yet. To be fair to Cucth, though, it's too early in his career to make that comparison. That said, we know he'll never have the arm Roberto possessed.
Bonds was never a crappy fielder. He like McCutchen didn't throw very well. You really need to look at his numbers, and for all the steroid talk he still only ever passed 50 HR's one time.
Can you read? My post above gives him that one and I cited statistics rather than just give my "opinion".
Ego is a destructive thing. Agree, Bonds was one of the greatest to ever play the game and he didn't need steroids to do it. Now, that's about all anyone outside of SF thinks about when his name is mentioned.
It is worth mentioning that this play took place in the old Memorial Stadium in Baltimore and, being game 6 of the series, it was Clemente's 3rd game there EVER! A VERY FINE defensive play, indeed!
Bonds also won three gold gloves in Pittsburgh, and was a top-5 defensive left fielder every year that he played for the Pirates. Bonds is a top-3 all-time outfielder in Total Zone Runs.
He did roids more than a few years. It kept him HEALTHY moreso than STRONG. Your argument is a fallacy. To top a guy who took illegal, performance enhancing drugs without the same advantage is like comparing an apple to an elephant. Got any YouTube videos of Barry taking over a World Series? A game in a World Series? An inning? I thought so!
In the 2002 World Series (7 games), Bonds hit 4 home runs, had 6 RBIs, and had a batting line of .700/1.294/1.994. That's absolutely dominant, and is one of the best statistical World Series performances in history.
I am pretty sure that Mickey Mantle was faster than Willie Mays going from first to third and was also faster going from home plate to first base on a swing. I also think Mantle was a five tool player and from 1953 to 1962 he was one of the two best players in baseball with Willie Mays being the other one. In that 10 year span nobody had more homeruns than him.
I'm old school. I don't need some formula or numbers to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. I personally watched Bonds play over 80 games in Pittsburgh, both as a Pirate and Giant. I cheered his play. He was terrific, but I would not even list him among the 10 best players I saw in my lifetime.
By 1993, Bonds already had two offensive seasons (1992 and 1993) that were superior to Mays' career-best season (1954).
