I know someone who might have been to that camp in June 1988 -- junior-to-be QB who was listed in some mag the next season as one of the top (100?) quarterbacks in the country and an eventual four-year starter for a Division II team. His dad is a Penn State letterman (OL). Next time I see him, I'll ask if he was at the camp, and if he knew Spinelli.
Jerry Sandusky Writes Interesting Letter Mocking the Most Recent Allegations Against Him
- Thread starter JohnZiegler
- Start date
The claim is that Sandusky was having "oral sex" in the Penn State showers during a recruiting camp. Not in his basement.
Then as you say, allow it to be "rational discourse". There's no reason to shut people up that don't agree with you.
Zig has gotten us some inside info that no one else has. You may not agree on his delivery methods or the way that he gets it, but without Zig, we would still be in the dark about a lot of things. He goes right to the source.
I take everything Zig gives us, Ray gives us, Ryan gives us, Jimmy gives us, and others in the know have given us, put it all together along with court documents, discovery material, and testimony, and come to my own conclusions. Zig is just one peg of the knowledge pool, but a very important peg.
Do I wish he had a more polished delivery? Sure. But as far as having the most inside knowledge of the individual personalities on the SANDUSKY end of this case is concerned (Victims, Defendants, Victim's and Defendant's Families, etc.), he has as much valuable inside info as anyone. His work has been extremely valuable and I applaud and thank him for his efforts.
I take a different view in some respects. Attacking victims for their facebook posts and getting into facebook bitch fights with victims' mothers and other family members, and polling victims' HS friends to find out how many of them think he is a lying dick fits no definition of "rational discourse" which has ever been shared with me.
JZ is using some otherwise intelligent PSU fans to further goals of his own which have nothing whatever to do with PSU. The test is not whether JZ has published info we did not hear before. If that were the test I could make up some stuff you never heard before and garner the same credibility. Problem is you would not know whether it had any hope whatever of being true. JZ constantly casts doubt on others' motives, including the motives of such people as Eileen Morgan, who is as sweet and decent a person as God ever made. She will fight for PSU until they put her in a box and bury her in the ground. He has attacked Scott Paterno, Ray Blehar, Jay Paterno. He has not attacked Sue yet but I am sure that day is coming.
After 29 years, I have come to regard with suspicion a person who is always blasting the motives of others, someone who gets in fights with everyone, even those ostensibly on his own side. Have you ever seen JZ really rip Freeh or the BoT? No, he saves that for people like Eileen Morgan and Scott Paterno. Sorry, JZ's work is not part of any rational discourse.
My bad, I didn't realize you were only talking about this claim. Who knows if this one is legit to be honest, but it certainly doesn't mean Jerry did commit his crimes in front of people. It certainly doesn't mean people had to walk in on him all of the time either.
Wait, so you're saying that Scott doesn't deserve to be ripped? His advice to Joe in Nov 11 was catastrophic. I really wish you would debate Ziegler instead of trashing him incessantly.
I criticized that same advice. I also called for Joe to speak. But I have not attacked Scott's motives nor anyone else's except your hero. And what did Eileen do that you would like to criticize? How about JAY?
BTW, I notice you had nothing to say about JZ getting in flame wars on FB with the victim's mother. Is that because you, too, are horrified by this, or do you fully support that, too?
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AF and his mother have HUGE issues with their story, that is why they aren't believed by the people closest to them in their community. This is the type of investigating that should have occurred but hasn't outside of JZ.
http://framingpaterno.com/huge-rele...how-penn-statesandusky-scandal-really-started
http://framingpaterno.com/huge-rele...how-penn-statesandusky-scandal-really-started
I am sure that is impressive to you. So this kid who was abused by Jerry is neither particularly well-behaved nor well liked in his community? Wow. I guess that is as opposed to all the victims of child sexual abuse who are liked by their community? I sure am not impressed any more now than I was before. You mean this is so even AFTER the Freeh report made it possible to argue that AF caused joe paterno to be fired? Amazing. Yeah all those people who treated him like crap at his school after his name leaked don't like him? And if he is a bad person in their eyes that makes it okay that he was sexually abused? You are crazy, friend.
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In my opinion, sexual abuse is never ok. The question I have is whether AF is a victim of sexual abuse or not. I find it troubling that it took AF over 6 months from when he first lodged a complaint against JS until he alleged oral sex, and then only because of repressed memory techniques and only with his psychologist Michael Gillum present. The statements of the people from Lock Haven who know him the best who don't believe him to be entirely truthful causes me to further question his credibility.
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The jury which heard him testify and saw ALL the evidence disagrees. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well there's the difference between me and you. I have no faith in the corrupt state of Pennsylvania to deliver justice. Especially 7 months after one of the biggest media shit storms ever. And regardless of any evidence, lying cops, etc., there was zero % chance any jury was going to give JS a fair trial. As far as the Fisher's go, that picture of his young girlfriend bathing in Ben Franklin's pretty much says it all.
Juries have been known to get it wrong. Al Lindsay has made a compelling case that JS did not receive a fair trial in his Petition for Post Conviction Relief. The Grand Jury Presentment that Mike McQueary witnessed an anal rape in the shower was false. The unjustified firing of Joe Paterno made a toxic environment even worse. JS was convicted on all of the janitor counts (victim 8) when there wasn't testimony from a victim or an eyewitness, and there was no date given; and now it turns out that Calhoun had stated that it wasn't JS. The prosecution's contention that victim 2 was unknown was a fabrication when they clearly knew that AM was v2. The trial was in a kangaroo court replete with prosecutorial misconduct and a totally ineffective defense counsel. IMHO, if Judge Cleland has any objectivity whatsoever, he will hold a hearing into whether a new trial is warranted.
I'm all in favor of JS getting the process which is his due under the law. But the question FOR US is not whether AF is a victim or not. That is the question for the courts and the lawyers. The question for US is whether we are to admire a man who, before any court has found JS to have been wrongfully convicted in the AF case, gets into bitch fights on FB with AF's mother and polls his HS classmates regarding whether he is credible or not. BTW, MM was not convicted of anal rape in the shower, so the jury you say got it so wrong got this part EXACTLY right, didn't they?
When Jerry remains in jail for the rest of his life, as he no doubt will, what do you say to the victims your boy JZ has attacked? "Whoops, sorry?" This is dishonorable on the same level as what the BoT did. Remember, there are perfectly good and honorable mechanisms available to attack the credibility of a victim when he testifies. This is not it. This is embarrassing to those who believe in justice.
JZ is using PennState's good name as a tool in some other,self-aggrandizing fight. You are part of the tool he is using.
BTW, using your logic, why is it that people like you still admire a guy who has been found wanting by almost every decent person in this case? Is Franco his friend? Jay? Scott? Ray Blehar? Anyone else in the Paterno family? Well, using your logic, the people who know JZ best in this case, who have had more dealings with him than anyone, have no use for him, and therefore he is not credible. Funny you do not apply that lynch-mob logic when you KNOW the people who have no use for JZ are decent people, but you DO apply it when a bunch of people you do NOT know from Lock Haven criticize AF.
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So true. Atttacking the victims is what the defense attorney's needed to do. Not some off the cuff whacko who made it is own personal cause. Oh, you mean not every victim of sexual abuse is the most trustworthy perfect citizen around...no way. That is so shocking. WTF are these people that feel the need to attack victims of sexual abuse because all of a sudden they feel for the pedophile when it impacts their GD football program.
I get the anger at the BoT, it's deserved. I get the anger towards Jerry by the SANE crowd, it's deserved. I don't however get the idiotic witch hunt to attack victims by those screaming fair trial out the left side of the mouth, but then saying he is still probably guilty on the right side. If you honestly felt he was guilty, you damn well wouldn't attack the victims as it does nothing for anyone at this point in time. Maybe because the victims are men now instead of women or children, they justify it their heads, but it is absolutely disgusting. There has been zero evidence to date that really overturns anything, but we can question the character of the victims who were GD abused by a serial monster. All you can do is shake your head at this crap. JZ should start a a GD cult as he brainwashed a few without even trying that hard.
Lots of these kids were troubled, whether they were in TSM or not. Jerry's great gift as a pedophile was his ability to select his victims with regard to a number of factors, all bearing on credibility--kids in criminal trouble, kids with a history of lying, kids whose parents were either gone, or drugged out or drunk, kids who had no credible person who would come to their defense or support them, or whose supporters were just as lacking in credibility as they were. The idea is that this provides a shield against prosecution, and even though it failed, in Jerry's case here they are still trying. And these people are helping Jerry attack the victims from prison. It is the single most disappointing and revolting thing I have ever seen from people who call themselves PSU fans. Hard as it is, we have to own it. And We cannot remain silent in the face of it, either.
Imagine you are a kid who has been abused by some other active pedophile and you are frightened about coming forward. How does this affect you? "I was sexually abused, and it makes me hate myself, but if I come forward what I have suffered alone until now will seem like a picnic in the park. The abusers friends will be able to publicly rip me apart worse than their buddy the abuser did."
Anyone who has been around victims of abuse or talked to them as adults knows how hard it is for them to come forward. I can't imagine how a kid with no real adult supervision growing up was suppose to know exactly what to do. Even more so when a town saint like JS is the one doing this crap...sick, sick, sick f-ing man preying on the weakest of children who were already dealt some bad cards in life. Now as an adult to get bullied by some jack arse online who convinced himself this is all just a bad dream in his own warped head. I honestly just shake my head when I see people going to bat for JZ and this lost cause.
Which is exactly why it's disturbing that Tom/BWI allows this garbage to be posted here.
Nope. I'm just a guy who calls out vicious stupidity when he sees it. Sorry you got in the way.
I dunno about that. 1,000,000 "likes" would place demlion far ahead of fairgambit and I don't think he is deserving or ready for such treatment. Likes need to be earned....they aren't Mardi Gras beads ;-))
Hey! I earned every Mardi Gras bead I ever got!I dunno about that. 1,000,000 "likes" would place demlion far ahead of fairgambit and I don't think he is deserving or ready for such treatment. Likes need to be earned....they aren't Mardi Gras beads ;-))
I hope that JS does eventually get due process because IMO it is abundantly clear that he didn't get it in his original trial.
It may not be a question for you whether AF is a victim or not, but it is to me. For the record, JZ is not my boy; however, I believe he has done some good research uncovering the facts of the case. His research into AF has been a lot more than polling his HS classmates. He has interviewed his ex-girlfriend and the mother of his child. He has interviewed Josh Fravel who lived next door to AF and Dawn. He has interviewed Judy Fox, a leader of the group who organized a rally in support of AF when the story first broke. He has interviewed Thairan Mauch, AF's former best friend, and his father Brian Mauch.
Oh, he's your boy alright. Look, you do not get to pick and choose between and among the things he has done. Naming the names of the people he interviewed does very little to change anything about the essence of what JZ did, which you support here--he has publicly attacked a number of the victims, including "inadvertently" outing one of them who wished to remain anonymous. Do you think it would be possible to launch a campaign to discredit those people he interviewed? Of course it would. Did they try to get some of the money and get shut down? Do they have other problems in THEIR personal lives we can bring forward to discredit them? Can we expose stuff about them which they would rather not have in public. As it stands of number of them have both been AF's friend and his enemy. Perhaps they are simply unstable, and will say whatever a forceful interviewer wants them to say. Pretty unlikely that ANY of them will be called to testify if a new hearing IS granted. I want you to think about that, and what it means--they have no evidence that a court will consider relevant to the actual charges against JS.
As it stands today it has been shown by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that AF IS a victims of CSA by Jerry. That is the highest standard known to the law. It is one thing to say you do not believe it and to support those who are trying to free JS. It's a free country after all. But to make public slurs against a victim is beyond the pale, and it is pretty clear you do not get that or care about it if you do get it.
Now I see you have 5 posts, 2-3 of which are in this thread. Where you been John Ziegler? Or are you pnnylion?
What do we all think there will be more of?
Likes to demlion's post, or pnnylion usernames?
This case has nothing to do with Penn State's football program. For me, it is now about honoring Joe Paterno's dying wish about knowing the truth about what exactly happened.
If you really cared for the man and what he stood for, you wouldn't be backing this nut JZ or even entertaining him. In fact I find it disgusting you even used Joe as an out for this behavior. The Paterno family are not challenging the victims. They are using this as an educational tool to teach people about nice guy predators. They are not screaming for Jerry's innocence, far from it. The truth about the BoT's actions and the Freeh report have zero to do with Jerry's innocence. They are fighting the NCAA and the old guard at the BoT for making Joe the scapegoat for all of this, but that doesn't mean they feel Jerry is some victim here.
Neither Joe or his family have ever gone on the record defending Jerry or saying maybe he is innocent. Only here where a few nutjobs want to pretend it never happened and somehow it was all one big mistake or conspiracy to simply take Jerry, Joe, and PSU down. Odd how some people here will invoke Joe's wishes, but those closest to him are doing the exact opposite. It's a tough pill to swallow, but the man is a pedophile and you can't walk it back. Not if your only defense is one of the victims/witnesses is a bit shady. Let all of them say it was a lie or a money grab, maybe then you could be on to something. Nothing thus far has proven in the least that JS is innocent. Nothing.
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Eds at the point where he doesn't even deny it anymore. It's his game and yet he calls everyone else a troll
Facebook interviews aren't going to do that. JZ is a straight hack that comes here and posts this then disappeares till his next EPIC Facebook interview.
