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Logic Prevails

El-Jefe said:
So you prefer RBY's stall call in the finals?

Because that's the real alternative.
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I just don't think the step out rule will lead to more actual wrestling and engagement. Instead of guys working for stall calls, they'll work for push-outs.

And then the game will be how to get to your knees just before going OOB (assuming, like freestyle rules, that wouldn't count as a pushout).

NCAA wrestling doesn't need new ways for guys to score points. They just need the stalling calls to be consistently applied (which I acknowledge will never happen to everyone's satisfaction).
 
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El-Jefe said:
So you prefer RBY's stall call in the finals?

Because that's the real alternative.
Click to expand...
I never expected you to be an "Iowa Style" fan!
But I'm sure that their fans are overjoyed to see someone over here supporting it.
 
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In theory--though I still favor folkstyle as what I believe is the "purer" sport--I have started to support the idea of a step-out in college.

However--to me the biggest hurdle remains mat buffer size. I just can't imagine a step out working if you don't also allow for continuation scoring out of bounds like they do in freestyle. To do otherwise would (IMO) dramatically reduce the number of TDs scored in the NCAA. But that just doesn't seem like a remotely safe choice given the variability of gym and mat sizes in the wild. I'm not sure that's a solvable problem (maybe by making the circle smaller ala freestyle, and standardizing buffer zones--but that is going to cost everybody money they may or may not have too).

If NCAA does have a step out--your Thomas Gilman types are going to be scoring more points--but I see that as small side-effect, IMO. I don't think it would take over the sport any more than the Thomas Gilman types have taken over freestyle (which is not much, IMO).

I don't think there is any question at all that the boundary rules in Freestyle help make a more exciting product overall, and for all the subjectivity in Freestyle, the step-out is the least subjective point in the sport, which would certainly be a breath of fresh air over the current rules/enforcement. I just don't know how to get there.
 
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ss7 said:
I just don't think the step out rule will lead to more actual wrestling and engagement. Instead of guys working for stall calls, they'll work for push-outs.
Click to expand...
midniteride said:
I never expected you to be an "Iowa Style" fan!
But I'm sure that their fans are overjoyed to see someone over here supporting it.
Click to expand...
People don't believe in evolution. SMH.

Wrestlers will adapt. If they don't want to get pushed out, they will work harder to keep action in the center. Which is what people claim they want, until presented with that option.
 
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El-Jefe said:
People don't believe in evolution. SMH.

Wrestlers will adapt. If they don't want to get pushed out, they will work harder to keep action in the center. Which is what people claim they want, until presented with that option.
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I believe in evolution. I'm just skeptical that the change will actually lead to an improvement in wrestling.

I generally don't think there is a major issue in NCAA wrestling that needs to be fixed.

I'll also add that, with the way edge of the mat stalling is called, we already have a step-out rule after an initial warning. Would you say things have improved (either in general wrestling quality or tendency of guys to wrestle at the edge) since that change was made? Personally, I would say no.
 
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ss7 said:
I'll also add that, with the way edge of the mat stalling is called, we already have a step-out rule after an initial warning. Would you say things have improved (either in general wrestling quality or tendency of guys to wrestle at the edge) since that change was made? Personally, I would say no.
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We do not have a step-out rule.

We have a Nobody Knows What the Refs Will Call Including the Refs rule.

Which was predicted yrs ago when the rule was implemented.

The NCAA thinks something is wrong with it, otherwise would not propose additional training for refs and coaches.
 
ss7 said:
I just don't think the step out rule will lead to more actual wrestling and engagement. Instead of guys working for stall calls, they'll work for push-outs.

And then the game will be how to get to your knees just before going OOB (assuming, like freestyle rules, that wouldn't count as a pushout).

NCAA wrestling doesn't need new ways for guys to score points. They just need the stalling calls to be consistently applied (which I acknowledge will never happen to everyone's satisfaction).
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People keep saying this, but it doesn't happen in freestyle. It creates a ton of scrambles on the edge as people try to stay in. At some point, you have to acknowledge reality.
 
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ss7 said:
I believe in evolution. I'm just skeptical that the change will actually lead to an improvement in wrestling.

I generally don't think there is a major issue in NCAA wrestling that needs to be fixed.

...
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But are you one of those many people who, if folkstyle already had a push out rule, would resist a proposal to remove it? :)
 
js8793 said:
People keep saying this, but it doesn't happen in freestyle. It creates a ton of scrambles on the edge as people try to stay in. At some point, you have to acknowledge reality.
Click to expand...

I'll admit that my freestyle palette isn't the most refined in the world. But I don't usually see what I would refer to as "scrambles" at the edge. I would describe what typically happens as a guy makes a sudden move or repositions at the last second so that his opponent's hand or foot touches OOB first. Or a guy who can't actually finish a takedown runs his opponent OOB for one point. If that's what you're looking for, then sure, the push out rule will work just fine.

But I don't see that as a real improvement. The issue, for me, is how much of the wrestling occurs at the edge of the mat. And providing a new scoring opportunity at the edge of the mat doesn't seem like a great way to discourage wrestling at the edge of the mat.
 
js8793 said:
People keep saying this, but it doesn't happen in freestyle. It creates a ton of scrambles on the edge as people try to stay in. At some point, you have to acknowledge reality.
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But what about those giant magnets pulling wrestlers out of bounds against their will?


tumblr_ojs20z06jQ1qz5q5lo1_400.gifv
 
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ss7 said:
I'll admit that my freestyle palette isn't the most refined in the world. But I don't usually see what I would refer to as "scrambles" at the edge. I would describe what typically happens as a guy makes a sudden move or repositions at the last second so that his opponent's hand or foot touches OOB first. Or a guy who can't actually finish a takedown runs his opponent OOB for one point. If that's what you're looking for, then sure, the push out rule will work just fine.

But I don't see that as a real improvement. The issue, for me, is how much of the wrestling occurs at the edge of the mat. And providing a new scoring opportunity at the edge of the mat doesn't seem like a great way to discourage wrestling at the edge of the mat.
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Why do you think that is?

There's no punishment for staying on the edge. It's a safety blanket if you get in trouble. With a step out, you have to stay on the mat to keep a 1 point lead.

The offensive wrestler is (almost) always going to be moving forward. What we have to ask is how do we get the defensive wrestler to hold their ground and actually wrestle instead of flee? It requires far more skill to wrestle defensively with a push out. It incentivizes actual wrestling.

The ultimate irony of your concern is that people stay on the mat FAR MORE in freestyle than in folkstyle. If you're truly worried about people just walking out of bounds, you should support the push out.
 
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ss7 said:
I just don't think the step out rule will lead to more actual wrestling and engagement. Instead of guys working for stall calls, they'll work for push-outs.

And then the game will be how to get to your knees just before going OOB (assuming, like freestyle rules, that wouldn't count as a pushout).

NCAA wrestling doesn't need new ways for guys to score points. They just need the stalling calls to be consistently applied (which I acknowledge will never happen to everyone's bias).
Click to expand...
FIFY
 
js8793 said:
Why do you think that is?

There's no punishment for staying on the edge. It's a safety blanket if you get in trouble. With a step out, you have to stay on the mat to keep a 1 point lead.

The offensive wrestler is (almost) always going to be moving forward. What we have to ask is how do we get the defensive wrestler to hold their ground and actually wrestle instead of flee? It requires far more skill to wrestle defensively with a push out. It incentivizes actual wrestling.

The ultimate irony of your concern is that people stay on the mat FAR MORE in freestyle than in folkstyle. If you're truly worried about people just walking out of bounds, you should support the push out.
Click to expand...
But there is a punishment. It might not get called 100% of the time, but let's not act like it gets called 0% of the time either. Wrestlers know they are risking a stalling call, then points, by wrestling at the edge. And they still do it. Seemingly as often as ever.

And maybe it's just my perception driven by my opinion of the backing out stalling calls, but there seems to be a lot of guys who use the threat of a push out as a major offensive strategy. Those "offensive" wrestlers are incentivized to tie-up and start pushing. I think a step out rule will only cement that as a major part of NCAA wrestling.

I don't think the push out is terrible. I don't think it would ruin wrestling. But I think there are things that will be just as frustratingly subjective/inconsistent - what gets called grounded and what doesn't - associated with it. And I think it devalues getting actual takedowns too much. While comments about it turning into sumo wrestling are hyperbolic, I think push outs will quickly become the go-to late match strategy for a lot of guys. And that, to me, doesn't represent an improvement from what we have now (which I think is pretty great).
 
Any talk of allowing continuation after a brick is thrown and the challenge won?

Not many seem to care, but it bugs me. More than 30% of the time when the challenge is awarded, it seems one wrestler or another has points taken back. A lot of good wrestling is left on the matt arguably totally unaffected by a missed call.

Think about it. Had Ryan thrown the brick over 2 NF points Bo's pin might have come off the board, and.....

.... he wins in less dramatic fashion. :-/
 
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ss7 said:
But there is a punishment. It might not get called 100% of the time, but let's not act like it gets called 0% of the time either. Wrestlers know they are risking a stalling call, then points, by wrestling at the edge. And they still do it. Seemingly as often as ever.

And maybe it's just my perception driven by my opinion of the backing out stalling calls, but there seems to be a lot of guys who use the threat of a push out as a major offensive strategy. Those "offensive" wrestlers are incentivized to tie-up and start pushing. I think a step out rule will only cement that as a major part of NCAA wrestling.

I don't think the push out is terrible. I don't think it would ruin wrestling. But I think there are things that will be just as frustratingly subjective/inconsistent - what gets called grounded and what doesn't - associated with it. And I think it devalues getting actual takedowns too much. While comments about it turning into sumo wrestling are hyperbolic, I think push outs will quickly become the go-to late match strategy for a lot of guys. And that, to me, doesn't represent an improvement from what we have now (which I think is pretty great).
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that there is a (sufficient) punishment for defensive wrestling at the edge. While there is always an outside threat of stepping out of bounds at the edge and being called for stalling, defensive wrestlers have learned how to minimize that risk.

More often than not, the defensive wrestler backs up to the edge and then hangs out or circles so they stay in all the way up until the offensive wrestler tries to attack. At which point the defensive wrestler sprawls or defends while going out of bounds and the ref calls action. Then they reset and go right back to where they were at the edge of the mat. That, to me, is the definition of intentionally limiting wrestling action.

If there was a push out rule, the defensive wrestler can't immediately back up to the edge of the mat since all it would take would be a simple push for a point. All of the other potential issues with it (subjectivity over whether the wrestler was grounded, offensive wrestler walking the opponent off the mat with a leg in the air, continuation issues, etc.) should all be tolerated and worked through since those are a result of more wrestling action, not less.

I will say that the main issue I have with the current rules is that the offensive wrestler can be called for stalling for intentionally pushing the opponent out of bounds. I think if they simply changed that to "action" instead, that would be ok with me. That's actually how they handle it in freestyle as well if the offensive man just straight arm shoves the opponent off the mat.
 
The NCAA can’t be called out for Intelligent Design.........
 
Tough subject. I personally don't want to see pushing an opponent out-of-bounds rewarded in any way. Quite the opposite. If we want to see true "wrestling action", and that is what will help grow the sport, pushing and never shooting ain't going to cut it.

I'm one that was for the new language when it was created prior to the 2017-18 season. You could say I was duped into believing that a push-only style would be penalized by stall calls when going out-of-bounds. It did happen, not every time, and that led to inconsistency and confusion.

Part of me still likes the rules as written. Anyone else believe a tweak for the next two years is worth it?
 
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I’d be a fan of a rule resulting in making Trent Hidlay wrestle as opposed to planting himself OOB and making it impossible for AB to score.

They could/should just call edge stalling more often. The 184 final should have been like 6-2.
 
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The out of bounds rule change in freestyle immensely increased the action. It keeps the match moving and in the center of the mat. Their only issue seems to be the "grounded" exception.

I strongly favor adopting the rule for folkstyle.
 
dunkej01 said:
I think wrestling should try new rules like the OOB in exhibitions or in RTC off season events.
Click to expand...
Or some other event that doesn't count, like at National Duals.

Seriously, I've said before and will keep saying: Super 32 should be the trial lab for ideas like this. It's a preseason folkstyle event. It's a mammoth tourney (Round of 256 at some weights!) with many future D1 wrestlers and most states represented.

And in the case of the step out rule: most of them have been wrestling freestyle for years, so it should be a minimal adjustment.

Throw in the Super 32 regional qualifying tourneys, and suddenly that's a lot of data each year.
 
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Apply the rules we have and there would be no discussion on this. Hidlay/brooks match was easy to call if ref wanted to. Folkstyle is different than free lets keep it that way. Only time i even watch freestyle is when a usa wrestler or a hs kid i been watching is on the mat. Other than that dont really care to watch and i know alot of people who love watching Folkstyle who will not watch freestyle.
 
How many more decades do we wait for the refs to "apply the rules" on their own?

Because even the NCAA has twice figured out that the refs won't. That's why the NCAA implemented this crappy boundary rule 5 yrs ago, and why they're now proposing additional training on that rule.
 
The title of this thread is “Logic Prevails”. But what we need is not more Logic. As Jefe pointed out, what we need is more Evidence. Since the freestyle evidence is not persuading enough people. We need folkstyle evidence.
 
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People say the rules get played in folk thus alot of edge wrestling, coaches/wrestling game plan for opponents as well as refs. What makes people think they will not do same with push out rule. That rule if ever adopted would get played a hell of alot more since it results in points, then u have sumo
 
The only time I wish there was a push out rule in Folkstyle is in the 3rd period. Too often the wrestler with the one point lead turns the last 2 minutes into a dance contest and most referees let them get away with it because "logically" they choose not to use some subjective power bestowed upon them to decide the outcome of the match.
 
Folkstylefan said:
People say the rules get played in folk thus alot of edge wrestling, coaches/wrestling game plan for opponents as well as refs. What makes people think they will not do same with push out rule. That rule if ever adopted would get played a hell of alot more since it results in points, then u have sumo
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And yet somehow freestyle has not turned into sumo.

Maybe it's because the other guy has 2 options: stay off the edge, or fight back.
 
Well i don’t watch alot of free mainly because i don’t care for it but yes I’ve seen sumo there
 
El jefe would have loved the step out over the last dozen yrs. iowa may have had better chance at titles then and marrinelli may be going for multiple titles instead if hoping to get 1 in his 6th yr
 
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