Marsteller...
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It's also easy for me to say because I face my own life-long challenges. Mine just don't happen to involve abusive parents. I can only mitigate mine, with lots of hard work and good decisions. If I do nothing, mine will change on their own, in the wrong direction. And I don't have the luxury of making bad decisions. That's not a mentality for me -- that's a fact of life. My choices are not about my past -- they're about the consequences to my present and future.
But enough about me. Jordan Oliver's family is riddled with drugs and gangs. His brother has his own police blotter page on the Allentown Morning Call website, with multiple prison stints as a drug dealer and involvement in a triple homicide. His then-teenage cousin was shot dead outside a skeezy strip club in another gang killing.
Jordan Oliver's past didn't hinder his future. Marsteller needs to own his future.
Naked outdoors = locked himself out. Who (except Will Ferrel) would go naked door to door, to your neighbors house/apartment nonetheless, while knowing you are a high profile athlete? I don't care how intoxicated someone is, I don't see it happening without it being an major error/oops moment.
All of it wreaks of someone with a major addiction problem who needs help in the form of a treatment program.
All of it wreaks of someone with a major addiction problem who needs help in the form of a treatment program.
That would mean going outside naked ... umm ... the only way that's unintentional is if his roommates physically threw him outside and locked the door. Come to think of it, I've seen dumber in college.
More likely he thought it was funny. Knucklehead college stuff. He needs to realize he can't put himself into the same situations as his roommates, because someone else's knucklehead prank spirals out of control for him.
The amount of detox that was administered to him in the ER should also be a clue, if he chooses to pay attention.
I dunno, Man. If the two people in this world that should nurture you and care for you as a child are abusive or simply just don't care then I can see how you might not have the tools to cope with difficult circumstances.
I just can't see a roommate locking someone else out, while naked, long enough for the police to show up - It would obviously tarnish their own record as well and would likely be part of the police report. Maybe he was locked out for another reason though - Personal safety, or the perceived safety (lack thereof) of Mr. Marstellar?
Some difficult circumstances are best avoided altogether. That has to do with making good decisions today, not about one's past.
sad story and we don't really know what was going on but we now have hindsight to judge? I'm not going to. I will say that I am tired of the 'childhood' situations determining behaviors That is a horrible excuse. There isn't one of us that couldn't come up with a childhood excuse for behavior.... too rich, too poor, Uncle, brother, etc. Show me a non-dysfunctional family. All I'm trying to say is that even those not getting in trouble have a background item that could be used... We are responsible for ourselves. There are reasons, but they are merely interesting.
This is certainly a valid perspective, and I can respect it. From my point of view, I read "running door to door . . . knocking on doors while naked". My first thought -- maybe he was with a girl and she pranked him (or was mad at him) and locked him out. Second thought -- maybe he was so intoxicated that he went out for some reason and was too disoriented to go back to the right door and then got panicked. I saw those scenarios happen more at college than the "drunk flasher", and so I didn't assume Marsteller was messing with people intentionally. Either way, the behavior is bizarre, which might cause some to wonder what the heck is going on in the kid's head (not necessarily simplify it as an out-of-control 21-year-old high on something). When someone refuses to identify himself while in a state of intoxication and becomes argumentative, everyone knows the ball is starting to roll down an unfavorable path when it comes to conflict resolution. That is the point at which the authority figure has to choose between cajoling and force, knowing that force is inevitably going to result in escalation. But, for all I know, the police did try the former and it failed, so force was the last resort. The article just didn't read that way, and in my experience, local police on average tend to handle conflict a little differently than higher levels of law enforcement, especially in small towns. Maybe that is unfair of me to say, but it is my experience.
Anyhow, once the cuffs came out and Marsteller reacted the way he did, I agree that there were not really any other ways to handle the situation. It was at that point of bringing out the cuffs that made me wonder if something else could have been done.
I suppose it is pointless to speculate not having been at the scene, but when I saw the littany of charges and description of events, it just triggered a "surely this could have gone better" feeling in me. Indeed, it is sad -- he could have been out of the situation with one count of disorderly conduct and one count of open lewdness, with no one seriously harmed if only he was able to cooperate, or police were able to persuade him to cooperate.
I interpreted this very differently -- that he wanted to go home to get his ID but the cops wouldn't let him ... kinda like what used to happen at the Mifflin Streak. At this point, who knows? Other than there was at least one bad decision up front (being intoxicated) that led to other bad decisions -- some of which might have been made by the cops, but he still bears the burden of them.
I don't know Marstellar from Adam so I'm just giving a random example, but here goes:
Little Johnny raises himself without parental involvement and learns to self-medicate with alcohol. When emotionally trying situations arise he turns to alcohol. Little Johnny's girlfriend, the girl he thinks he's gonna marry and will love for the rest of his life (remember being that young? lol) dumps him, he gets hammered and ends his night in jail. Little Johnny is still a child and was never taught to accept responsibility for his mistakes so that he could learn not to repeat them, which is why he continues to use alcohol as a crutch.
My intent isn't to make excuses, it's to try to comprehend how the kid got himself in this situation.
Little Johnny raises himself without parental involvement and learns to self-medicate with alcohol. When emotionally trying situations arise he turns to alcohol. Little Johnny's girlfriend, the girl he thinks he's gonna marry and will love for the rest of his life (remember being that young? lol) dumps him, he gets hammered and ends his night in jail. Little Johnny is still a child and was never taught to accept responsibility for his mistakes so that he could learn not to repeat them, which is why he continues to use alcohol as a crutch.
My intent isn't to make excuses, it's to try to comprehend how the kid got himself in this situation.
Can I ask what you do for a living that you can make this judgement of those encounters? It has been my experience in 20 years of law enforcement that your opinion is overwhelmingly false. Police respond to millions of incidents a year, many of similar circumstances as this and an overwhelming majority of them end peacefully through verbal de-escalation. The actions of this incident are indicative of more than an alcohol induced rage. Naked running around, self-inflicted harm, strength beyond normal, lack of pain induced compliance are all indicators of narcotic based incident. This is very similar to many synthetic marihuana or bath salt cases I have dealt with. I will tell you in those instances there is absolutely no reasoning with an individual.
Maybe you will surprise me and have a career that deals with these types of cases regularly but unless you do and if your just commenting based on what you think is really going on maybe you should reconsider.
Maybe you will surprise me and have a career that deals with these types of cases regularly but unless you do and if your just commenting based on what you think is really going on maybe you should reconsider.
I used to view it that way, but new experiences now have me leaning in the direction of thinking that relativity is important. The kid that experiences "all negative" in the home is going to be far more maladjusted and incapable of responsibility than the kid that has "much negative but some positive". And yes, scientifically, it is very interesting to see where the divergences and outliers occur. I've known kids who have a lot of baggage but respond differently. I don't know how to explain it.
I know this is a wrestling forum and I am probably talking too much, but the sociological subject matter we are getting into is very complex, and I always struggle with my views on it. There are neighbors and others in my community that I have wanted to throttle because of their behaviors, despite that I know there are probably very sad stories and explanations behind them. There is an innate response to protect what is yours and what you value, but at the same time -- when emotions settle -- an innate feeling of compassion. Tough stuff without easy answers.
Anyway, sorry for the hijack.
In your comments about the local police, you certainly paint with a very broad brush.
Haven't had my coffee yet so I couldn't get through the whole thing. Things are a little bit different than our day...did you know they found a college student so f*cked out of his goard the other day that he killed a married couple and was found by the cops eating them. Granted, it was Florida but you catch my drift. Looked like your avg, frattie dude.
Everybody has suggestions for the cops these days but are rarely around to help their widows pick out the caskets when the stun guns or fancy tranqgun doesn't work on the guy so drugged out that it's like a shot of tequila to his system and he ends up cracking the nice cops skull. Or maybe we can rig a spidy net that when thrown on the perp, it activates personalized music to take one to their safe space.
I'm always willing to reconsider when it comes to speculation from a news article. If this was not alcohol-induced, and he was as out-of-control on narcotics as you suggest, then I'm sorry I offended.
However, I don't need to have had a career in law enforcement to know whether "naked running around, self-inflicted harm, strength beyond normal, lack of pain induced compliance" are indicators of alcohol vs. narcotics use. Those are relative signs, and I have seen all of them with alcohol consumption alone. I have also seen local or campus police utilize an aggressive or condescending response as their first response enough times that I am not going to feel guilty wondering if that happened in this particular case.
Please just keep in mind that my "judgement" you referenced was not intended to paint every police-perp encounter the same. Of the millions of encounters you cited, I agree wholeheartedly that many are de-escalted verbally, and many others involve offenders that cannot be reasoned with. But let's not pretend there are not plenty of cases at the local level where the situation escalates unnecessarily. The article said Marsteller was cuffed upon becoming argumentative over production of ID. I'm not sure what level of safety risk that involved.
There are always going to be bad apples and they need to be flushed out of police work. there are always alternative ways of handling incidents but often people are asked to make a hasty decision based on limited facts which is a difficult task. What is also important is to not based a broad spectrum of police work on your individual encounters. Remember there are millions of encounters every year and I would suggest your interactions would be barely noticeable on that spectrum. I don't evaluate all my waitresses on my bad experience at a restaurant or all car salesman based on the outcome I didn't like. Its dangerous to paint with a broad stroke.
Funny how these things can be interpreted so many ways.
"Marsteller began to argue with them about obtaining his identification."
I saw this as the police wanting him to obtain his ID, but Marsteller not obliging because he didn't want cops in his apartment (out of fear of a search).
Couple thoughts.
Out of control drunk (this case as kps pointed out, bath salts or some derivitive) college student. Tranqulized sounds so dramatic. They held him down and gave him a nice shot of 2mg lorazepam and 10 mg halidol and let him go to sleep.
Slush, I get your points. However, one thing college town cops are well versed in is dealing with highly inebriated college kids. Not a direct witness, but I can almost guarantee the cops knew pretty much immediately what they were dealing with and almost certainly tried to verbally redirect the kid. However the cops also have a responsibility to gain control of the situation, now! If while trying to redirect the kid and not securing situational control, something happens that is unintended but bad - that is then on the cops.
Nothing wrong with trying to understand the underlying reasons for certain behaviors, especially self-destructive behaviors. Understanding the reasons can help in finding a better path. However, the bottom line is someone needs to begin making better decisions and the best first better decision is stop getting phucked up.
Out of control drunk (this case as kps pointed out, bath salts or some derivitive) college student. Tranqulized sounds so dramatic. They held him down and gave him a nice shot of 2mg lorazepam and 10 mg halidol and let him go to sleep.
Slush, I get your points. However, one thing college town cops are well versed in is dealing with highly inebriated college kids. Not a direct witness, but I can almost guarantee the cops knew pretty much immediately what they were dealing with and almost certainly tried to verbally redirect the kid. However the cops also have a responsibility to gain control of the situation, now! If while trying to redirect the kid and not securing situational control, something happens that is unintended but bad - that is then on the cops.
Nothing wrong with trying to understand the underlying reasons for certain behaviors, especially self-destructive behaviors. Understanding the reasons can help in finding a better path. However, the bottom line is someone needs to begin making better decisions and the best first better decision is stop getting phucked up.
Yep, always a possibility that an intoxicated person wouldn't want the cops finding more intoxicants.
Chief & kps -- You both make excellent points, which is why I find the subject matter so complex. Perhaps I allow my personal experiences (which could be biased by geography and demographics) to influence my opinions more than I should. I will say that a recent experience involving a child had me in utter disbelief. There is certainly a spectrum.
Jefe -- Your examples about some choosing good vs. bad paths are great. There are so many variables at play, and I always commend those who choose good despite the deck being stacked against them. I've coached kids who will have my undying respect for rising above. I've had my share of heartbreakers, too. And I never have enough information to know why some turn out differently than others.
Jefe -- Your examples about some choosing good vs. bad paths are great. There are so many variables at play, and I always commend those who choose good despite the deck being stacked against them. I've coached kids who will have my undying respect for rising above. I've had my share of heartbreakers, too. And I never have enough information to know why some turn out differently than others.
Did he not have anyone around to let him know that those decisions probably weren't going to be good ideas? This obviously isn't the situation I initially thought it was and you can't really make excuses for the guy but as a coach if you do know you have a guy with issues wouldn't you take certain precautions to try and best ensure this type of stuff doesn't happen?
"I always commend those who choose good despite the deck being stacked against them. I've coached kids who will have my undying respect for rising above. I've had my share of heartbreakers, too. And I never have enough information to know why some turn out differently than others."
Great observation. Something that always irritates the living snot out of me is the attitude, I overcame why should I feel sorry for those poor slobs who choose not to overcome. Like anything else, different people are blessed with different talents. Some folks are blessed with intelligence but lack emotional development. Others may be intellectually challenged, and their success or lack of is determined by their support system.
It isn't always as easy as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get busy fixing thyself." Many of us need some sort of help and as a society a little empathy and compassion are not bad things.
Great observation. Something that always irritates the living snot out of me is the attitude, I overcame why should I feel sorry for those poor slobs who choose not to overcome. Like anything else, different people are blessed with different talents. Some folks are blessed with intelligence but lack emotional development. Others may be intellectually challenged, and their success or lack of is determined by their support system.
It isn't always as easy as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and get busy fixing thyself." Many of us need some sort of help and as a society a little empathy and compassion are not bad things.
Not sure Bro, felt like his actions were deserving of such! Hang loose
The problem is he (the coach or his designee) would have to follow him around 24/7. You cannot manage a person's addiction extrinsically. They will find a way to "get the job done" when no one is looking. To them, it (their addiction) falls into the same category in their brain as the need for air, food, water. They really don't know the difference between the need for the drug and these other basic needs - they can't figure out why there is such a drive for it either. It all takes place in the primitive mid-brain, not the cortex (thinking) part. The thinking part of the brain is bypassed and rational logic never enters into these decision making processes.
Still cashing my checks from our FOS days, I see.
Seriously, I'm probably being a bit of a hard-ass. I do have some empathy. You can make 1000 good decisions and have the roof cave in on #1001. It's not easy having very little margin for error, and it can be a lot of pressure. In the end, life doesn't care, it goes on either way. I hope the guy reaches all of his goals, but really just hope he can overcome his demons, stay out of trouble, and be a productive member of society. By all accounts he's a good guy when he stiff-arms his demons, so there is hope.
That's why I wasn't a fan of his transfer and said so at the time. I wish he had given Smith a real attempt to help him overcome his issues. Smith is a veteran coach who has seen it all, knew the situation well, and has many more resources available than at Lock Haven. Plus, any bad influences in PA would still be very distant. At that point, if Marsteller transferred for wrestling, great.
In fairness to Moore, we don't know what precautions he took and what (if any) conditions he placed on the transfer.
Plus, it doesn't always matter. Joe once had a starter who was late for everything. Joe even assigned shadows to him -- and the shadows were late from trying to drag the first guy in. BTW, that guy was a senior and a good pro prospect, and I'm sure Joe made sure he knew the NFL wouldn't tolerate tardiness and lack of discipline. None of that was enough. The guy eventually got in trouble, and while he was eventually cleared, Joe was fed up and tossed him from the team long before the DA exonerated him. His lack of discipline and unwillingness to accept help probably cost him an NFL career.
Back then we called that Pledge Week, or more generally Freshman Year.
Of course for us that was in a dorm and not a coed off-campus apt complex.
Man, you have a knack for making me feel unintelligent -- that one went flying right over the ol' noggin. Is there a PM option on here? If not, can you clue me in via PM on FOS? I'm at a BBQ but can check the account later.
The LH wrestling program let Chance go as fast as any NCAA team in history likely with more knowledge than we have to comment on. It looks like we have witnessed the last of Chance. Hope life after wrestling is better.
As harsh as that sounds, they do have a program reputation to protect, but more importantly the best way to help someone in his shoes is to let them hit bottom, then offer as much support as possible in their recovery. They took care of the first part, let's hope they follow through on the latter.
You need to be taught, or you need to learn, as a teenager, that you are a threat to yourself and everyone around you, with the strength and skills you have. You NEED to understand that before you drink. IF you drink, you need to understand that violence is NOT an option.
A bad mistake that will cost him his Division ONE college career, but NOT his life and NOT his chances to continue in probably 2 years at the D2 or D3 level. A lack of priors will limit his time to most likely just what he is doing now, as he will get most likely a one or two year probation, and have the opportunity to continue wrestling in his home town at the D2 or D3 level. This is his one final warning, however. The next time, he's going to prison.
A bad mistake that will cost him his Division ONE college career, but NOT his life and NOT his chances to continue in probably 2 years at the D2 or D3 level. A lack of priors will limit his time to most likely just what he is doing now, as he will get most likely a one or two year probation, and have the opportunity to continue wrestling in his home town at the D2 or D3 level. This is his one final warning, however. The next time, he's going to prison.
Sad sad situation but are we making to much of this because he is a super stud wrestler?
This kind of stuff happens everyday and until the people who have this problem get the help they need which is available they will continue on this path. There is no cure you just have to admit the powerless and work a program. For some unknown reason some people just cannot be honest even with themselves. I will pray that Chance can find his higher power and become successful in the future.
This kind of stuff happens everyday and until the people who have this problem get the help they need which is available they will continue on this path. There is no cure you just have to admit the powerless and work a program. For some unknown reason some people just cannot be honest even with themselves. I will pray that Chance can find his higher power and become successful in the future.
regarding bath salts,as a former drug and alcohol counselor,i remember the case of a gentleman in western pa. who took bath salts and was found the next day unconcious in a bra and panties covered in blood. turned out he had killed his neighbors pygmy goat. there's no reasoning with that person.as far as chance's upbringing,while i sympathize ,there has to be some point where you make a decision to put it behind you. easier sad than done granted but necessary. it's a choice you have to make-continue to let it poison you or start the healing process. i wish him the best of luck but it seems like his wrestling career is over.
Well Azchief--I'm a fireman & had several brothers on that call you're speaking of. The 19 yr old frat boy who LITERALLY went berserk & ate the husband. I obviously can't go into to any of the HORRIFIC details ,but, the drug Flaka is absolutely INSANE down here in south Floida.
I've FOUGHT several people on these drugs & at 6'2" 250 with wrestling & MMA background have had my hands full.
Pray that that kid can get his shit together before he kills & innocent person or himself.
He may be a grown man physically, but at his age the brain is still developing (until ~ 24). Men and Women in their late teens/early twenties are retarded. I mean "retarded" as can be seen in a CAT scan as a lack of brain matter in the aforementioned area. Now, take that partially developed brain and add mind altering alcohol/drugs - That is what we are dealing with in situations like this.
Chance's story bummed me out, big time.
But I have to say I'm oddly buoyed by the quality of discourse in this thread. It's been a pet theory of mine this year that whatever the magnitude we assign to the negatives of the Information Age, they're all mutable and we're more than likely just suffering from a widespread lack of experience. In the long future of online discussion, we're just zygotes to this point.
But man, we're growing! I really see it in the wrestling community, on many of its online channels. This thread, even just last year, could have been a raging schitt show. But I read a lot of thoughtfulness in it--carefully chosen and well-organized words, and a fair bit of decency extended to those on the other end of discussions. I dug it.
I hope that doesn't come off condescending, cuz I'm trying to get better at it, too. I guess y'all being thoughtful and empathetic inspired me, and this is what I came up with...
Anyway....get better, Chance!
But I have to say I'm oddly buoyed by the quality of discourse in this thread. It's been a pet theory of mine this year that whatever the magnitude we assign to the negatives of the Information Age, they're all mutable and we're more than likely just suffering from a widespread lack of experience. In the long future of online discussion, we're just zygotes to this point.
But man, we're growing! I really see it in the wrestling community, on many of its online channels. This thread, even just last year, could have been a raging schitt show. But I read a lot of thoughtfulness in it--carefully chosen and well-organized words, and a fair bit of decency extended to those on the other end of discussions. I dug it.
I hope that doesn't come off condescending, cuz I'm trying to get better at it, too. I guess y'all being thoughtful and empathetic inspired me, and this is what I came up with...
Anyway....get better, Chance!
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