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McQueary v. Penn State: Has your opinion of Curley, Schultz, or Spanier changed?

BobPSU92

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May 6, 2015
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Has anything that has come out in McQueary v. Penn State changed your opinion of Tim Curley, Gary Schultz, or Graham Spanier? If so, how?

(I am not asking about Joe Paterno because he has not been a focus of the trial (directly) and because he was never charged with a crime. If you have thoughts about Joe as they relate to McQueary v. Penn State, feel free to add them, but it is not my intention to make this "all about Joe".)
 
Has anything that has come out in McQueary v. Penn State changed your opinion of Tim Curley, Gary Schultz, or Graham Spanier? If so, how?

(I am not asking about Joe Paterno because he has not been a focus of the trial (directly) and because he was never charged with a crime. If you have thoughts about Joe as they relate to McQueary v. Penn State, feel free to add them, but it is not my intention to make this "all about Joe".)

I'm outraged at all of them! :eek:

Nothing has changed in my opinion. Testimony has been consistent, and their actions seem completely reasonable based on the info they had. (I'm talking 'real' consistent testimony, not Sassano had to tell me it was consistent.) Now if you were asking about my opinion of those involved the night of the incident... that's a different story.
 
I'm outraged at all of them! :eek:

Nothing has changed in my opinion. Testimony has been consistent, and their actions seem completely reasonable based on the info they had. (I'm talking 'real' consistent testimony, not Sassano had to tell me it was consistent.) Now if you were asking about my opinion of those involved the night of the incident... that's a different story.

I appreciate your OUTRAGE. :eek: Atta boy. :)

Feel free to expound on Mike McQueary, John McQueary, and/or Dr. Dranov. I did not specifically address them since they have not been charged with a crime, but they are obviously pertinent players.
 
Dranov testified that the account that Mike gave him did not come across as something that should be reported to police.

Dranov heard Mike's account almost immediately after he witnessed the shower incident.

With those two things being true, why would people expect Curley and Schultz to decide that police intervention was needed after hearing Mike's account, now a week after the incident occurred?

The rest of the charges against Curley and Schultz should be dropped instamatically, as Paulie would say.
 
I'll play.

It's only strengthened my opinion that the state has no case against the "PSU3". So far, this trial has not gone well for Mike.

Mike was destroyed by Frank Fina, and this issue - along with other concerns - has been brought up in full with AG candidate John Rafferty.

It's been tragic all along. This entire sad saga birthed out of Strawberry Square by a prosecutor who was obsessed with images of women being violated.

YCMTSU
 
Has anything that has come out in McQueary v. Penn State changed your opinion of Tim Curley, Gary Schultz, or Graham Spanier? If so, how?

(I am not asking about Joe Paterno because he has not been a focus of the trial (directly) and because he was never charged with a crime. If you have thoughts about Joe as they relate to McQueary v. Penn State, feel free to add them, but it is not my intention to make this "all about Joe".)

These trials show what an absolute disaster our judicial system has become. It takes a whole day for 2 witnesses to repeat a couple of things something they've already said. Everybody deserves justice but two weeks of this nonsense?

No it hasn't changed my opinion of Curley, Shultz, or Spanier. My opinion has always been that:
  • MM was concerned about what JS was doing with the boy but he couldn't be sure.
  • MM used soft language when describing what he experienced to JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz because he didn't want to make false accusations.
  • Because of the soft report JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz didn't appreciate the severity of what might have been going on. That's why they responded as they did.
  • Curley & Shultz did a poor jobs with this. Even a soft report warranted better documentation. It's ridiculous to not remember if something was reported to CYS.
  • Nobody would advertise this type of event to the public but the notion of a conspiracy to keep things quiet in order to protect football is absurd.
 
I understand one should not form an opinion based on stories in the press, but if the coverage of the trial so far is complete and accurate IMO the plaintiff is in danger of resting their case without having met their burden. In other words, conceivably the defense could put on no case at all and still win.
I have no opinion one way or the other about the merits of MMs case but I think it is a real stretch based on the evidence to date to conclude that PSU retaliated against MM because of his report. He may (or may not) have a legitimate breach of contract case for the failure to pay him a bonus for the bowl or maybe even for not allowing him to coach the final 4 games. But those decisions had nothing to do with retaliation (or at least no evidence has been produced to suggest otherwise). IMO after today's testimony it would not be a bad idea for the plaintiffs to circle back to PSU over the weekend to negotiate a face saving settlement. One would think PSU would settle for a couple hundred K and certainly MM could use the cash.
 
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I thought they were all innocent of the charges all along and the testimony only cemented that belief. I am ecstatic that these people on both sides are under oath and testifying. Even Sassano's testimony was indirectly good in that he showed how biased his statements are. From the beginning, as he stated is such a joke in that his beginning was 2010 not 2001. Twisted evidence to cover for his bosses all the way up to the second worst person in this ordeal after Sandusky.

The lack of cross on Sassano by the BoT's lawyers just show how corrupt our BoT is. There will be another date in court when they are destroyed for not representing PSU and instead representing themselves.
 
These trials show what an absolute disaster our judicial system has become. It takes a whole day for 2 witnesses to repeat a couple of things something they've already said. Everybody deserves justice but two weeks of this nonsense?

No it hasn't changed my opinion of Curley, Shultz, or Spanier. My opinion has always been that:
  • MM was concerned about what JS was doing with the boy but he couldn't be sure.
  • MM used soft language when describing what he experienced to JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz because he didn't want to make false accusations.
  • Because of the soft report JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz didn't appreciate the severity of what might have been going on. That's why they responded as they did.
  • Curley & Shultz did a poor jobs with this. Even a soft report warranted better documentation. It's ridiculous to not remember if something was reported to CYS.
  • Nobody would advertise this type of event to the public but the notion of a conspiracy to keep things quiet in order to protect football is absurd.

Thanks for the summary. This point is an interesting one:

"Curley & Shultz did a poor jobs with this. Even a soft report warranted better documentation. It's ridiculous to not remember if something was reported to CYS."

Of course, the question that is asked is whether there was intent in any perceived failings. Curley and Schultz did not break the law and did not endanger a child, but did they do everything they should have? Perhaps not, but I do not believe there was any malicious intent.

Part of the issue with how Curley and Schultz responded likely was there being so many cooks in the kitchen. There need to be many involved, but that adds complexity. What does courtney think? What does raykovitz say? What does Graham, our boss, want us to do? Assuming they involved harmon, what did he say or do?

Another issue, frankly, is that ignorance was likely at play. First, you're told it was horseplay. It wasn't clearly illegal, but it may have been odd. Second, how much if any training had Curley or Schultz received in these matters by 2001? Regardless, they still consulted with legal counsel and raykovitz.

Related to the cooks in the kitchen and ignorance, there also may have been a bit of buck-passing, hot potato. Curley and Schultz likely found themselves well outside their comfort zone. They were getting opinions from people outside the university. Who should now do what, when, and how? Furthermore, the fact that it was sandusky probably made it that much harder to take a hard line. That is not to say in any way that anyone wanted to cover it up, but the fact that they knew sandusky and that he was so highly revered in 2001 had to make taking a hard line difficult.

It is easy years later to armchair quarterback the situation, but I think Curley and Schultz found themselves in uncharted waters and a difficult situation.
 
Dranov: There was nothing in MM's story that warranted further action
McQ Sr: There was nothing in MM's story that warranted further action
JVP: MM watered down his story, but JVP still made sure MM told PSU admins
Spanier: They only said it was horseplay
Shultz: It sounded like horseplay and just like the 1998 incident when JS was cleared, but restricted JS's access to facilities and told JS's "employer" in JR.
Curley: It sounded like horseplay and was okay with Schultz's plan

MM: Heard slapping sounds and just ASSUMED it was something sexual, but never saw any sexual act

So what am I missing and why are S/C/S still being charged? Why have individuals been crucified and millions paid out over this crap?
 
Thanks for the summary. This point is an interesting one:

"Curley & Shultz did a poor jobs with this. Even a soft report warranted better documentation. It's ridiculous to not remember if something was reported to CYS."

Of course, the question that is asked is whether there was intent in any perceived failings. Curley and Schultz did not break the law and did not endanger a child, but did they do everything they should have? Perhaps not, but I do not believe there was any malicious intent.

Part of the issue with how Curley and Schultz responded likely was there being so many cooks in the kitchen. There need to be many involved, but that adds complexity. What does courtney think? What does raykovitz say? What does Graham, our boss, want us to do? Assuming they involved harmon, what did he say or do?

Another issue, frankly, is that ignorance was likely at play. First, you're told it was horseplay. It wasn't clearly illegal, but it may have been odd. Second, how much if any training had Curley or Schultz received in these matters by 2001? Regardless, they still consulted with legal counsel and raykovitz.

Related to the cooks in the kitchen and ignorance, there also may have been a bit of buck-passing, hot potato. Curley and Schultz likely found themselves well outside their comfort zone. They were getting opinions from people outside the university. Who should now do what, when, and how? Furthermore, the fact that it was sandusky probably made it that much harder to take a hard line. That is not to say in any way that anyone wanted to cover it up, but the fact that they knew sandusky and that he was so highly revered in 2001 had to make taking a hard line difficult.

It is easy years later to armchair quarterback the situation, but I think Curley and Schultz found themselves in uncharted waters and a difficult situation.

One area I disagree is that I don't think MM reported horseplay. I think that's a word that C&S came up with after the fact to defend their minimal response.

IMO if MM reported horseplay he would have told his father and Dranov that he was uncomfortable with JS and a kid horsing around alone at night. He wouldn't have been upset.

I think he was legitimately concerned that it might be something more serious but he wasn't sure. I don't think C&S ever suspected sodomy or any kind of sex act but they certainly understood that MM was concerned it was over the line.

Like Joe said, Old Main screwed up. But a coverup? No!
 
One area I disagree is that I don't think MM reported horseplay. I think that's a word that C&S came up with after the fact to defend their minimal response.

IMO if MM reported horseplay he would have told his father and Dranov that he was uncomfortable with JS and a kid horsing around alone at night. He wouldn't have been upset.

I think he was legitimately concerned that it might be something more serious but he wasn't sure. I don't think C&S ever suspected sodomy or any kind of sex act but they certainly understood that MM was concerned it was over the line.

Like Joe said, Old Main screwed up. But a coverup? No!
Then how do you explain this ... "Dr. Dranov testified to the grand jury that he asked McQueary three times if he had seen any sexual activity between the boy and Sandusky and all three times McQueary answered "no"."
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time I even saw the word 'sexual' used in conjunction with the 2001 shower incident was in the GJP NINE years after the actual event!? And yet reputations (individuals and an institution) were tarnished and millions paid because one man changed his story.
 
I understand one should not form an opinion based on stories in the press, but if the coverage of the trial so far is complete and accurate IMO the plaintiff is in danger of resting their case without having met their burden. In other words, conceivably the defense could put on no case at all and still win.
I have no opinion one way or the other about the merits of MMs case but I think it is a real stretch based on the evidence to date to conclude that PSU retaliated against MM because of his report. He may (or may not) have a legitimate breach of contract case for the failure to pay him a bonus for the bowl or maybe even for not allowing him to coach the final 4 games. But those decisions had nothing to do with retaliation (or at least no evidence has been produced to suggest otherwise). IMO after today's testimony it would not be a bad idea for the plaintiffs to circle back to PSU over the weekend to negotiate a face saving settlement. One would think PSU would settle for a couple hundred K and certainly MM could use the cash.
The trial isn't over yet
 
Mike McQueary reported an unusual incident in 2001. He saw nothing that he could "sink his teeth into." As a result, after hearing his immediate response, his father a medical professional and Dr. Dranov a friend and business associate of John McQueary decided it was an administrative issue for PSU. Mike reported as such to JVP, who followed University policy and contacted his supervisor Tim Curley. Gary Schultz VP and Curley worked to find a solution that would eliminate PSU from future risks of this nature. After consulting with counsel, JS was barred from bringing TSM children as guests at PSU and his employer was informed of the incident and the decision.
Only a fool would think that a child rape was reported and this was the response from all of the above respected individuals.
This was a politically motivated prosecution. It is clear that the investigation of TSM, BOT and Central Mountain School District were all given a pass.
Spanier was Corbett's target and Tim and Gary were indicted to keep them silent during the JS Trial and to be intimidated into flipping on Graham.
Other than Jerry Sandusky, the only crooks in this saga work (ed) for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
 
I found it interested that the not very bright Agent Sassano, characterized MM as the "linchpin." I wonder if that was a bit of a slip. After all, Sandusky is one of the "worst" serial pedophiles ever..... The Commonwealth not only produced nearly a dozen victims,but we are told they had countless others waiting in the wings.... I think what Sassano really meant was that MM was the linchpin to making this a PSU Scandal. And that is the rest of the story.
 
No. Because I try my absolute 100% best to try and comprehend the material in REAL TIME and not with the benefit of hindsight 10 years after the fact.... in REAL TIME many neighbors thought Jeffrey Dalmer was a great guy. in REAL TIME many people thought certain priests and boy scout leaders were great guys ....

Everybody looks at the info now (2016) or even in 2011 with what we all know about Sandusky and say "How could they allow this monster .......".

But remember, in 1998 and 1999 and 2001/2002 Jerry Sandusky was NOT perceived as a monster. He was actually considered as almost a "saint" for the work he was doing with the 2nd Mile. After we won our 2nd national championship in 1987 thru the day he retired in 1999, Sandusky was probably the second most popular and beloved figure associated with Penn State and Penn State football, right behind JoePa.

So when I read the testimonies of Spanier and everybody else, and they are trying to recollect what they were thinking back in 1998 or 1999 or 2002 ... remember, their perception of Sandusky was of a beloved figure who was doing great work around the State College area.... not a monster.

So no. My feelings have not changed.
 
These trials show what an absolute disaster our judicial system has become. It takes a whole day for 2 witnesses to repeat a couple of things something they've already said. Everybody deserves justice but two weeks of this nonsense?

No it hasn't changed my opinion of Curley, Shultz, or Spanier. My opinion has always been that:
  • MM was concerned about what JS was doing with the boy but he couldn't be sure.
  • MM used soft language when describing what he experienced to JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz because he didn't want to make false accusations.
  • Because of the soft report JM, Dranov, Joe, Curley, and Shultz didn't appreciate the severity of what might have been going on. That's why they responded as they did.
  • Curley & Shultz did a poor jobs with this. Even a soft report warranted better documentation. It's ridiculous to not remember if something was reported to CYS.
  • Nobody would advertise this type of event to the public but the notion of a conspiracy to keep things quiet in order to protect football is absurd.

Yep...this is the best review and aligns with my take on this, so far. It all comes down to the content of what MM told C&S. Seems none of the dip$hits (MM included) took the time to document anything. But what MM told JVP/Dranov/Dad seems to comport with what C/S told Spanier. So, to me, his claim that he told them something stronger is (at the very least) 'reasonable doubt'. It just doesn't make sense that MM told the first six people a watered down story. Then told C&S something stronger. Never told anyone else anything stronger. And sat on it for ten years before coming out with the stronger statement.

Again, I submit, MM emboldened his statement in 2010 to help put a pedo away or because he was coerced.
 
Let's put Jerry's 42 counts of abuse into perspective.

The only reason ANYONE is paying attention to it is because of "Penn State".


 
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No. Because I try my absolute 100% best to try and comprehend the material in REAL TIME and not with the benefit of hindsight 10 years after the fact.... in REAL TIME many neighbors thought Jeffrey Dalmer was a great guy. in REAL TIME many people thought certain priests and boy scout leaders were great guys ....

Everybody looks at the info now (2016) or even in 2011 with what we all know about Sandusky and say "How could they allow this monster .......".

But remember, in 1998 and 1999 and 2001/2002 Jerry Sandusky was NOT perceived as a monster. He was actually considered as almost a "saint" for the work he was doing with the 2nd Mile. After we won our 2nd national championship in 1987 thru the day he retired in 1999, Sandusky was probably the second most popular and beloved figure associated with Penn State and Penn State football, right behind JoePa.

So when I read the testimonies of Spanier and everybody else, and they are trying to recollect what they were thinking back in 1998 or 1999 or 2002 ... remember, their perception of Sandusky was of a beloved figure who was doing great work around the State College area.... not a monster.

So no. My feelings have not changed.

Spot on.. hindsight is the only reason these guys are charged with anything and the only reason Joe was buried by the media and general public. You have to "erase" all you know now and go back to that time and situation and look at it from that perspective to be able to make any rational judgment about the situation. The assumptions have been of the absolute worst case scenario and they have become the artificial public "facts". Sandusky's the criminal in all this. The finger pointing that began immediately really distracted people from that.
 
But remember, in 1998 and 1999 and 2001/2002 Jerry Sandusky was NOT perceived as a monster. He was actually considered as almost a "saint" for the work he was doing with the 2nd Mile. After we won our 2nd national championship in 1987 thru the day he retired in 1999, Sandusky was probably the second most popular and beloved figure associated with Penn State and Penn State football, right behind JoePa.

Except that all Penn Staters knew and we are all guilty of being enablers. o_O

Seriously, good post.
 
In a word- no.

I thought the wrong people were charged, and I still think so. In a just world, One Term Tommy and his political cronies would be paying C/S/S every cent they make for the rest of their lives.
 
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Spot on.. hindsight is the only reason these guys are charged with anything and the only reason Joe was buried by the media and general public. You have to "erase" all you know now and go back to that time and situation and look at it from that perspective to be able to make any rational judgment about the situation. The assumptions have been of the absolute worst case scenario and they have become the artificial public "facts". Sandusky's the criminal in all this. The finger pointing that began immediately really distracted people from that.

Agreed; another big factor is the nature of what happened -- Sexual Abuse of Children. It is one of the few remaining taboo behaviors in our society, and produces an emotional reaction in hearing about it. People are eager to find a villain, not just the perpetrator, but also those that could have prevented it, and express their outrage. The lurid grand jury presentment leaks set the stage.
 
Ww
One area I disagree is that I don't think MM reported horseplay. I think that's a word that C&S came up with after the fact to defend their minimal response.

IMO if MM reported horseplay he would have told his father and Dranov that he was uncomfortable with JS and a kid horsing around alone at night. He wouldn't have been upset.

I think he was legitimately concerned that it might be something more serious but he wasn't sure. I don't think C&S ever suspected sodomy or any kind of sex act but they certainly understood that MM was concerned it was over the line.

Like Joe said, Old Main screwed up. But a coverup? No!

Well the word horseplay was synonymous with JS for decades. He was known far and wide as a towel slapping big good. Far beyond Centre county. So, I can see it.
 
No. Because I try my absolute 100% best to try and comprehend the material in REAL TIME and not with the benefit of hindsight 10 years after the fact.... in REAL TIME many neighbors thought Jeffrey Dalmer was a great guy. in REAL TIME many people thought certain priests and boy scout leaders were great guys ....

Everybody looks at the info now (2016) or even in 2011 with what we all know about Sandusky and say "How could they allow this monster .......".

But remember, in 1998 and 1999 and 2001/2002 Jerry Sandusky was NOT perceived as a monster. He was actually considered as almost a "saint" for the work he was doing with the 2nd Mile. After we won our 2nd national championship in 1987 thru the day he retired in 1999, Sandusky was probably the second most popular and beloved figure associated with Penn State and Penn State football, right behind JoePa.

So when I read the testimonies of Spanier and everybody else, and they are trying to recollect what they were thinking back in 1998 or 1999 or 2002 ... remember, their perception of Sandusky was of a beloved figure who was doing great work around the State College area.... not a monster.

So no. My feelings have not changed.
Perfectly stated, @Kiber.
 
Dranov: There was nothing in MM's story that warranted further action
McQ Sr: There was nothing in MM's story that warranted further action
JVP: MM watered down his story, but JVP still made sure MM told PSU admins
Spanier: They only said it was horseplay
Shultz: It sounded like horseplay and just like the 1998 incident when JS was cleared, but restricted JS's access to facilities and told JS's "employer" in JR.
Curley: It sounded like horseplay and was okay with Schultz's plan

MM: Heard slapping sounds and just ASSUMED it was something sexual, but never saw any sexual act

So what am I missing and why are S/C/S still being charged? Why have individuals been crucified and millions paid out over this crap?
 
With regard to this point, if I were a manager (Gary Schultz) and indirectly involved with policing wouldn't this be something that you might expect Gary to delegate to Tom Harmon who is a full blown cop? In as much as Harmon was more directly involved with the '98 incident. I believe that there were notes in Schultz's file about reporting to CYS. "Tom, please take care of reporting this to CYS. You have dealt with this situation before"

I was hoping that Harmon's testimony would flesh his actions out more clearly and it appears that they didn't. What did you do? and who told you to do it? did you fail to do anything?, etc, etc,

Since I just got fitted for a new tinfoil hat, why didn't harmon get pressed on those details?
 
One area I disagree is that I don't think MM reported horseplay. I think that's a word that C&S came up with after the fact to defend their minimal response.

IMO if MM reported horseplay he would have told his father and Dranov that he was uncomfortable with JS and a kid horsing around alone at night. He wouldn't have been upset.

I think he was legitimately concerned that it might be something more serious but he wasn't sure. I don't think C&S ever suspected sodomy or any kind of sex act but they certainly understood that MM was concerned it was over the line.

Like Joe said, Old Main screwed up. But a coverup? No!
While we don't have all he details of the investigation, we do know that someone interviewed Sandusky, which would make him another potential source for the "horseplay" term.
 
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I understand one should not form an opinion based on stories in the press, but if the coverage of the trial so far is complete and accurate IMO the plaintiff is in danger of resting their case without having met their burden. In other words, conceivably the defense could put on no case at all and still win.
I have no opinion one way or the other about the merits of MMs case but I think it is a real stretch based on the evidence to date to conclude that PSU retaliated against MM because of his report. He may (or may not) have a legitimate breach of contract case for the failure to pay him a bonus for the bowl or maybe even for not allowing him to coach the final 4 games. But those decisions had nothing to do with retaliation (or at least no evidence has been produced to suggest otherwise). IMO after today's testimony it would not be a bad idea for the plaintiffs to circle back to PSU over the weekend to negotiate a face saving settlement. One would think PSU would settle for a couple hundred K and certainly MM could use the cash.

Pretty much agree but I think Bradley's testimony where he felt MM was treated unfairly by PSU was a big win for Mike.
But so far that was about it.
I think a lot more should have been made of Dranov not thinking it was a big enough deal to call the police. Someone should have been reporting, reprinting and retweeting that until the internet went down.
I want to see that on the 24hour crawler on ESPN.
 
Nope. My theory for several years now has been that that Spanier was left in the dark as to what really happened and Curley and Schultz are largely to blame for this.
 
I am not sure if my opinions are their criminal liability have changed, but Spanier's testimony regarding the emails don't seem to ring true with me. I cannot believe that he read the email from one of the other two talking about a prior incident and elected not to inquire more. Especially (if I recall correctly) based upon Spanier's educational background.....
It's just like I don't believe for a second that Harmon didn't ask Schultz what was up when Schultz requested the 98 reports....
 
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