More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?

[WaffleShopper]

But again there’s nothing specifically that prohibits someone from being on the sideline if they work for another staff simply because they work for another staff.

From 2020 but assuming no big changes.

Section 4 covers the Sportsmanship Rules.
Live scouting is covered on page 38.
Football starts on page 77.

2021Handbook (PDF) - Mid-American Conference

getsomemaction.com

Not seeing anything about visitors outside of the number of field passes (60). From CMUs perspective you'd need to prove they knew he was there to scout other schools it appears to. Obviously a big problem from the UM perspective.

There is not going to be a specific rule that says a team can't allow a representative from another team on their sidelines because that is absolutely ridiculous and nobody in 100 years would expect that to happen. I bet there also is no rule that says representatives from other teams can't dress in disguise and wear a different team's official gear.

If there is anything it would be covered under sportsmanship or something like that. I don't care enough so I'm not going to look, I was just commenting in hopes that you'd stop asking the same question over and over and shitting on this thread.

 

[Psubiomed]

The curtains are coming down now https://www.espn.com/college-footba...-action-michigan-sign-stealing-emotional-call

 

[fastlax16]

There is not going to be a specific rule that says a team can't allow a representative from another team on their sidelines because that is absolutely ridiculous and nobody in 100 years would expect that to happen. I bet there also is no rule that says representatives from other teams can't dress in disguise and wear a different team's official gear.

If there is anything it would be covered under sportsmanship or something like that. I don't care enough so I'm not going to look, I was just commenting in hopes that you'd stop asking the same question over and over and shitting on this thread.

So we agree there’s not a rule against giving a field pass to someone on another schools staff. That’s all I was saying for those with pitchforks out for CMU.

Unless there’s proof CMU was in on the scheme I don’t see how you punish them simply for his presence on the sideline.

 

[dailybuck777]

Unless there’s proof CMU was in on the scheme I don’t see how you punish them simply for his presence on the sideline.

I would agree with that. However, how does someone with no connection to CMU get on and stay on the sideline without the assistance of someone from CMU? Maybe higher up. Maybe lower level.

 

[Obliviax]

So we agree there’s not a rule against giving a field pass to someone on another schools staff. That’s all I was saying for those with pitchforks out for CMU.

Unless there’s proof CMU was in on the scheme I don’t see how you punish them simply for his presence on the sideline.

conspiring and helping someone do a crime is not all that much different from doing it yourself. CMU conspired to cheat, allegedly. Why would they give a visitor CMU geat and have him standing with the team? Other visitors would have to stand outside the 20 yard line and not with the team.

 

[Obliviax]

Assuming this is all true....what to do?

I'd put Harbaugh and their DC on leave. I'd let UM play the rest of the schedule but bar them from the B1G championship or any playoff/bowl. Maybe I'd let their kids portal out immediately.

 

[fastlax16]

conspiring and helping someone do a crime is not all that much different from doing it yourself. CMU conspired to cheat, allegedly. Why would they give a visitor CMU geat and have him standing with the team? Other visitors would have to stand outside the 20 yard line and not with the team.

That’s what I said…. You just have to prove it. His presence alone isn’t enough.

 

[surfmom]

There is not going to be a specific rule that says a team can't allow a representative from another team on their sidelines

The difference here is that the on-field opponent (MSU) was a future opponent (v. UM ) of the non-coach "visitors bench" sideline pass holder (Stalions), who is a current coach for a different team (UM) who is playing that future opponent (MSU). The "scouting coach" also is attempting to deflect attention by wearing CMU coaches' apparel and wearing a hat and sunglasses (at night). Whether the sunglasses were simply a "disguise" or something more nefarious is unknown.

Sounds like in-person scouting ... which IS banned by NCAA rules. May also be electronic scouting.

 

[Thomas1945]

conspiring and helping someone do a crime is not all that much different from doing it yourself. CMU conspired to cheat, allegedly. Why would they give a visitor CMU geat and have him standing with the team? Other visitors would have to stand outside the 20 yard line and not with the team.

I heard Rick Nuelheisel say on the radio that he’s provided countless sideline passes. But you stand over there as you stated and watch the game. He said that you definitely don’t get to stand near me or my coaches. Now wether who allowed it knew exactly what G. Gordon Stalions was doing maybe difficult to prove. But it seems odd that nobody asked “Who the F is that guy, and why is he standing here dressed like us”.

 

[Obliviax]

I heard Rick Nuelheisel say on the radio that he’s provided countless sideline passes. But you stand over there as you stated and watch the game. He said that you definitely don’t get to stand near me or my coaches. Now wether who allowed it knew exactly what G. Gordon Stalions was doing maybe difficult to prove. But it seems odd that nobody asked “Who the F is that guy, and why is he standing here dressed like us”.

I was once invited to a tOSU game on a sideline pass but couldn't make it as I had a family even that weekend. (and it was OSU) Did Nuelheisel say he gave passes to other team's coaching staffs? My guess is that he was referring to VIPs: sponsors, NIL contributors, friends of the university, etc. i'd be shocked if he gave sideline passes to coaching staffs of other teams.

 

[hfhmilkman]

Make excuses and deflect from the blatant and systemic cheating of your Michigan man. Who incidentally claimed that he had no knowledge (lied about) of what was going on about 3 weeks ago.

Or is it an excuse to justify future losses. I am being told by some on this board that a team like OSU has a month to prepare is helpless to prevent Michigan from knowing their signs. Football coaches are some of the most paranoid individuals in the world. I cry BS that football programs are helpless. When I was in college I had to learn ten new verb conjugations a day. If I were a P5 coach I would assume by definition that my signals have a shelf life of one week. There are multiple TV feeds and tens of thousands of people taking video. This is not a comment on what should the punishment be. I am not buying that this is a big deal because Peter Thamel alleges. How about the NCAA or a Big10 coach make a statement? If this is an outrage now, a school needs to make a public statement now. Individuals in Congress poster for far less. Right now all of the outrage is being generated by those benefit from declaring an outrage. I would like to see a reference that is something other than vague autonomous sources.

 

[Obliviax]

Or is it an excuse to justify future losses. I am being told by some on this board that a team like OSU has a month to prepare is helpless to prevent Michigan from knowing their signs. Football coaches are some of the most paranoid individuals in the world. I cry BS that football programs are helpless. When I was in college I had to learn ten new verb conjugations a day. If I were a P5 coach I would assume by definition that my signals have a shelf life of one week. There are multiple TV feeds and tens of thousands of people taking video. This is not a comment on what should the punishment be. I am not buying that this is a big deal because Peter Thamel alleges. How about the NCAA or a Big10 coach make a statement? If this is an outrage now, a school needs to make a public statement now. Individuals in Congress poster for far less. Right now all of the outrage is being generated by those benefit from declaring an outrage. I would like to see a reference that is something other than vague autonomous sources.

cheating is cheating. why would UM cheat if it wasn't a big deal? why take the risk?

the schools have no power but are clearly lobbying the B1G and NCAA to do something and quickly. I think we'll hear something fairly soon. I'll be surprised if UM is eligible for post season play, to be honest. (could be wrong, of course)

 

[Thomas1945]

I was once invited to a tOSU game on a sideline pass but couldn't make it as I had a family even that weekend. (and it was OSU) Did Nuelheisel say he gave passes to other team's coaching staffs? My guess is that he was referring to VIPs: sponsors, NIL contributors, friends of the university, etc. i'd be shocked if he gave sideline passes to coaching staffs of other teams.

True, he just mentioned that he provided sideline passes. He wasn’t accusing or defending, or commenting on clothing apparel. He just thought that where the guy was standing was extremely odd. Mysteries and crimes are solved by putting clues together into an explainable pattern. This seems like a pretty significant clue.

 

[fastlax16]

The difference here is that the on-field opponent (MSU) was a future opponent (v. UM ) of the non-coach "visitors bench" sideline pass holder (Stalions), who is a current coach for a different team (UM) who is playing that future opponent (MSU). The "scouting coach" also is attempting to deflect attention by wearing CMU coaches' apparel and wearing a hat and sunglasses (at night). Whether the sunglasses were simply a "disguise" or something more nefarious is unknown.

Sounds like in-person scouting ... which IS banned by NCAA rules. May also be electronic scouting.

And all of that is a problem for Michigan. I’m not sure it is for CMU unless you’ve got definitive proof they were in on his scheme, which so far there isn’t.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Or is it an excuse to justify future losses. I am being told by some on this board that a team like OSU has a month to prepare is helpless to prevent Michigan from knowing their signs. Football coaches are some of the most paranoid individuals in the world. I cry BS that football programs are helpless. When I was in college I had to learn ten new verb conjugations a day. If I were a P5 coach I would assume by definition that my signals have a shelf life of one week. There are multiple TV feeds and tens of thousands of people taking video. This is not a comment on what should the punishment be. I am not buying that this is a big deal because Peter Thamel alleges. How about the NCAA or a Big10 coach make a statement? If this is an outrage now, a school needs to make a public statement now. Individuals in Congress poster for far less. Right now all of the outrage is being generated by those benefit from declaring an outrage. I would like to see a reference that is something other than vague autonomous sources.

Right now all of the lack of outrage is being generated by those [who] benefit from declaring a lack of outrage

 

[Westcoast24]

CMU invited him to attend the MSU game (scUM's opponent the next Saturday!). How precisely is that not a blatant violation of the advance in-person scouting rule? (including prohibitions against taping, etc....). Again, it is a violation of NCAA Rules to knowingly participate in an illegal cheating scheme - CMU is an NCAA Member. You clearly don't understand the meaning of a "Collegial Organization" which the NCAA Membership most definitely is.

Maybe that’s part of the reason finebaum is changing his tune as well. It would mean a couple SEC schools would have to be looked at South Carolina

 

[Psubiomed]

Right now all of the lack of outrage is being generated by those [who] benefit from declaring a lack of outrage

The problem right now for this commissioner is 13 guys. There are 13 guys breathing down his neck daily and those 13 guys ain't chopped liver: they're the other head coaches in the Big ten.

 

[Thomas1945]

And all of that is a problem for Michigan. I’m not sure it is for CMU unless you’ve got definitive proof they were in on his scheme, which so far there isn’t.

Well if some some curious investigator were to ask why he was standing with and talking to your coaches, what’s the reply?
1. We loved his cool shades.
2. We had an extra set of CMU gear so why not?
3. My friend Jim, the UM head coach vouched for him as a standup guy.
4. Or my all time favorite. What John’s say when picked up soliciting prostitutes. “He was only working on a research project”.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

DonBrownDonBrownDonBrown

 

[PSU2UNC]

Honest question--has a team ever been penalized in the Big Ten under the sportsmanship policy?

We are in uncharted territory, but their blatant disregard for the rules definitey warrants it.

 

[LandoComando]

We are in uncharted territory, but their blatant disregard for the rules definitey warrants it.

That's fair but, like you said, it's uncharted territory so it stands to reason that lots of things will be reviewed and considered before taking action, right?

 

[PSU2UNC]

No, the league doesn't care about the coaches. Input is great. Everyone has input. You and others keep using the coaches as some kind of proof immediate action is required. They're not.

The ADs listen to the coaches. The ADs will say the same thing to the league. The member schools (literally the Big Ten itself) is demanding action.

Okay, if half the team dies we'll see what happens.

Hopefully that never happens but you didn't refute my point. Teams can opt out of bowls. It has happened before. But more importantly post-season bans can absolutely happen.

And you can "want" that. I fully understand that. The problem is the "immediate action" part. It's just not realistic. Doesn't mean it can't happen but it's not likely. Has it ever happened prior?

This situation (cheating that directly affects on the field competitive fairness) has never happened before. So all punitive actions, including those that have never been done before, are on the table.

 

[PSU2UNC]

That's fair but, like you said, it's uncharted territory so it stands to reason that lots of things will be reviewed and considered before taking action, right?

This is already happening. The investigation has been ocurring for at least two weeks.

 

[Obliviax]

The ADs listen to the coaches. The ADs will say the same thing to the league. The member schools (literally the Big Ten itself) is demanding action.


Hopefully that never happens but you didn't refute my point. Teams can opt out of bowls. It has happened before. But more importantly post-season bans can absolutely happen.

This situation (cheating that directly affects on the field competitive fairness) has never happened before. So all punitive actions, including those that have never been done before, are on the table.

I've said this before but will repeat it. And this is especially true if the former FBI activity is associated with this Stalions mess. There may be potential criminal activity if UM tried to break into other servers and/or shared illegal findings by using their servers. If there is criminal activity, that will take precedence. And if so, UM will have to suspend coach(es) until the investigation is completed. How many coaches get suspended before you can't play anymore? And that is the atom bomb here. What if this is so big that UM has to suspend play? What do you do then?

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

The MAC bylaws don't seem to be online like they are for some other conferences so you probably won't get a satisfactory answer to this any time soon. The Big Ten has a sportsmanship policy that can be used to punish Michigan and the MAC most likely has a similar policy.

Being complicit in an NCAA Rules Violation is also punishable by NCAA. CMU is an NCAA Member and is liable for being complicit in a scheme to violate and circumvent NCAA Rules - just because the poster says they aren't doesn't make it so (again, the NCAA is a "Collegial Organization" and the poster needs to look up the definition of "Collegial").

 

[Thomas1945]

I've said this before but will repeat it. And this is especially true if the former FBI activity is associated with this Stalions mess. There may be potential criminal activity if UM tried to break into other servers and/or shared illegal findings by using their servers. If there is criminal activity, that will take precedence. And if so, UM will have to suspend coach(es) until the investigation is completed. How many coaches get suspended before you can't play anymore? And that is the atom bomb here. What if this is so big that UM has to suspend play? What do you do then?

You hope the FBI doesn't get involved. It will take them three years to determine whether Jimmy is a secret Hamas agent or a school board protester.

 

[Obliviax]

You hope the FBI doesn't get involved. It will take them three years to determine whether Jimmy is a secret Hamas agent or a school board protester.

Agreed...but in the meantime, if there is enough smoke, you've got to get him out of there before he does more damage to the UM, B1G and NCAA brands.

And this is especially true now that we've embraced gambling and NIL.

 

[LandoComando]

This is already happening. The investigation has been ocurring for at least two weeks.

And what college football investigation ever wrapped up quickly?

 

[djm_psu_alum]

This is already happening. The investigation has been ocurring for at least two weeks.

Noted in these reports about B10 coaches/ADs being pi$$ed--B10 does not have investigators like the NCAA does. I believe the only published release from the B10 was that they are monitoring this investigation.

 

[CJFisJoePaII]

So we agree there’s not a rule against giving a field pass to someone on another schools staff. That’s all I was saying for those with pitchforks out for CMU.

Unless there’s proof CMU was in on the scheme I don’t see how you punish them simply for his presence on the sideline.

What are you talking about re: a lack of proof??? Are you aware that CMU's HC is a former scUM Assistant Coach? Are you aware that CMU's HC was working as a scUM AC when Stalions was hired onto the scUM Staff by Hairball (i.e., they worked together on the same scUM Staff)? Are you aware that they know each other and CMU's HC is lying when he says to the media that he has no idea who this person is standing on the sideline?

You have scUM poser-trolls on this Board saying CMU's Coach has nothing to gain from this which is nonsense - UM could have agreed to share Stalions huge catalog of work product with CMU's HC (again, a former scUM Assistant Coach hired by Hairball) if they ever had a future opponent in Stalions catalog. Hell, he Stalions may have been trying to feed CMU information he already had on MSU, while recording new in-game information for his catalog.

In any event, your insistence that there is no "evidence" that CMU was complicit here is nonsense.

 

[LandoComando]

What are you talking about re: a lack of proof??? Are you aware that CMU's HC is a former scUM Assistant Coach? Are you aware that CMU's HC was working as a scUM HC when Stalions was hired onto the scUM Staff by Hairball (i.e., they worked together on the same scUM Staff)? Are you aware that they know each other and CMU's HC is lying when he says to the media that he has no idea who this person is standing on the sideline?

You have scUM poser-trolls on this Board saying CMU's Coach has nothing to gain from this which is nonsense - UM could have agreed to share Stalions huge catalog of work product with CMU's HC (again, a former scUM Assistant Coach hired by Hairball) if they ever had a future opponent in Stalions catalog. Hell, he Stalions may have been trying to feed CMU information he already had on MSU, while recording new in-game information for his catalog.

In any event, your insistence that there is no "evidence" that CMU was complicit here is nonsense.

Wait--how great is our run game?

 

[PSU2UNC]

And what college football investigation ever wrapped up quickly?

What part of "uncharted territory" and "directly affects on the field competition" do you not understand?

 

[PSU2UNC]

Noted in these reports about B10 coaches/ADs being pi$$ed--B10 does not have investigators like the NCAA does. I believe the only published release from the B10 was that they are monitoring this investigation.

Not having formal investigators does not prevent them from investigating.

 

[hfhmilkman]

Here is the thing: The scope of the impact is obvious. 16-8 in conference under Booger Man. This scheme starts and in last 3 years he is 22-1. The bullshit meter is off the charts on those stats. It is like the Lance Armstrong turnaround.

For example, 2 years ago, PSU was beating Michigan late in 4th. How do we know the pick play that led to game winning td pass was not due to Michigan knowing the PSU scheme?

Last year in Ann Arbor, game was a 1 score game late in 3rd when Michigan not only unusually breaks 2 huge runs, but then also sniffs out a 4th and 1 in an uncharacteristic defensive formation in which they had to have known what PSU was running.

Lest we consider Michigan magically turning the corner on OSU. OSU owned Booger. Now we have the videotape of Michigan knowing what Stroud was doing at beginning of game.

The whole thing smells of bullshit to anyone with the comprehension of a 1st grader.

No one with a straight face can say Michigan wasn't at an advantage.

Coincidentally, when Michigan is tasked with playing a team that it didn't scout due to surprise, TCU, and after TCU had a month to change signs, that heralded Michigan defense and Booger the Brain get their doors blown off them by a school with less talent. Again, I call bullshit.

We all have video of the 2021 PSU<>UM game. There was no pick. It was not even an intentional rub. It was a basic crossing route play. Freeze the frame and there is at least five yards of distance between the two receivers. One or both of the PSU defenders did a fubar. If this requires 1st grade comprehension, show the RPS that Michigan players were always in right position. If you want to pick out a play, show how Michigan had the jump. That crossing route was not one of them.

Did you consider that perhaps Harbaugh upgraded the talent on the team. His first 6 draft classes produced 7 players taken in the 1st/2nd round. Last two years there have 6. There are supposedly 16 UM players who are projected who will be drafted. This includes the Heisman trophy front runner. Does sign stealing suddenly generate NFL talent? The NFL is measuring on how fast a player is, how many times they succeed at their task, not whether they are in the right place at the right time. There will probably be four or five UM players drafted in the 1st/2nd rounds. Perhaps not Georgia/OSU level. But that is way above the belt of what UM usually does.

 

[LandoComando]

What part of "uncharted territory" and "directly affects on the field competition" do you not understand?

What part of "college football" do you not understand?
This is what I mean by you not being realistic. You continually talk about what you want to see happen even though it's unprecedented for anything to move fast but you for some reason believe that's magically going to change because coaches are upset and some in the media want action. It's illogical.
You can hope things happen quickly but you're expecting them to and then will complain when they don't even though almost everyone knows how unlikely it is for that to happen.

 

[LandoComando]

This includes the Heisman trophy front runner.

99% sure Pennix is the favorite unless that changed since Monday

 

[djm_psu_alum]

Not having formal investigators does not prevent them from investigating.

True but it doesn't help.

 

[PSU2UNC]

We all have video of the 2021 PSU<>UM game. There was no pick. It was not even an intentional rub. It was a basic crossing route play. Freeze the frame and there is at least five yards of distance between the two receivers. One or both of the PSU defenders did a fubar. If this requires 1st grade comprehension, show the RPS that Michigan players were always in right position. If you want to pick out a play, show how Michigan had the jump. That crossing route was not one of them.

Did you consider that perhaps Harbaugh upgraded the talent on the team. His first 6 draft classes produced 7 players taken in the 1st/2nd round. Last two years there have 6. There are supposedly 16 UM players who are projected who will be drafted. This includes the Heisman trophy front runner. Does sign stealing suddenly generate NFL talent? The NFL is measuring on how fast a player is, how many times they succeed at their task, not whether they are in the right place at the right time. There will probably be four or five UM players drafted in the 1st/2nd rounds. Perhaps not Georgia/OSU level. But that is way above the belt of what UM usually does.

I'm not disagreeing about the crossing route (2 PSU defenders collided. It was a fluke play. PSU should have won that game).

However, using draft picks as evidence that Michigan got better is a questionable line of reasoning. The NFL absolutely looks at film in addition to combine measurables. Those players would look better if they knew what play was coming, no? So the draft stock of any player from 2021 to now should be higher than it would have been without cheating.

 

[PSU2UNC]

What part of "college football" do you not understand?
This is what I mean by you not being realistic. You continually talk about what you want to see happen even though it's unprecedented for anything to move fast but you for some reason believe that's magically going to change because coaches are upset and some in the media want action. It's illogical.
You can hope things happen quickly but you're expecting them to and then will complain when they don't even though almost everyone knows how unlikely it is for that to happen.

Flash back to 2012 -- had a school ever been punished for the crimes of a former football employee, where the crimes had nothing to do with football and did not involve student athletes, AND there was no NCAA investigation?

To be clear, I'm not comparing the two scenarios other than to say, there is a first time for everything and you saying "it's never happened before" is horrible logic because this type of cheating has never happened before.

 

[bluehair666]

Penn State can win the game by simply playing up to the talent level of it's team. That's not false.

your offensive line is garbage, they are playing up to their talent level