National Duals next season

[Junglekitty]

Would I love to see something become of a large dual tournament, absolutely. Reason: a team can do major damage and place quite high with having only a few bonus point machines/national champions. A dual tournament, in my opinion, would showcase full team strength. I would love to see college duals be a little more like high school duals where they move their guys around for the best possible matchups. The game of chess between coaches can be a match in itself.

I would love to see some big name wrestling companies like Rudis, Flo, etc get together and really throw some incentives for the top college teams to participate in such an event. The PA team tournament ( when it was in Hershey ) was an electric atmosphere when teams were battling.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

IMO - actually given the competition and the timing I think it's too much of a good thing far too early in the season. Also of note, many teams are still determining their starting lineups well into December. Hardly a measure of the best version of any one team that early

Risk of injury, incomplete conditioning, even though we would win $200k - expenses doesn't resonate that strongly.

I say pass!

I know it would never happen this way but after Nationals sounds more interesting.

 

[okokzach]

So many people talking about expenses. Did you read the article? "All participating teams will receive $20,000 for attending." And scoffing at $200k. How much are the prizes at CKLV, Soldier Salute, Southern Scuffle, etc?

I'm surprised by the number of negative comments in general. Feels crazy to see so many wrestling fans pooh-poohing the idea of more high level wrestling.

 

[El-Jefe]

So many people talking about expenses. Did you read the article? "All participating teams will receive $20,000 for attending." And scoffing at $200k. How much are the prizes at CKLV, Soldier Salute, Southern Scuffle, etc?

I'm surprised by the number of negative comments in general. Feels crazy to see so many wrestling fans pooh-poohing the idea of more high level wrestling.

Which of those 3 events do we attend now?

"Getting more high level wrestling" is a nice theory not supported by evidence. Every year at PA State Duals, when a team clinches a match, they sit the rest of their starters for the next round. The top teams' upper weights don't wrestle until at least the semis. Similar will happen here -- which means no better than Journeymen or stand-alone duals, in terms of getting high-level wrestling.

In which case, what does this event add?

Also, it means we won't schedule those non-conference teams for duals. So if we ever go to this, forget seeing OKST (etc.) in Rec Hall.

 

[pish69]

So many people talking about expenses. Did you read the article? "All participating teams will receive $20,000 for attending." And scoffing at $200k. How much are the prizes at CKLV, Soldier Salute, Southern Scuffle, etc?

I'm surprised by the number of negative comments in general. Feels crazy to see so many wrestling fans pooh-poohing the idea of more high level wrestling.

Agree 100%. Most of the comments against this are people justifying PSU if they don’t go.

If PSU does go, trust me, everyone here will be glued to TV to watch this event and be super excited for it, just like we were when PSU was in Scuffle every year.

I’d love to see it with PSU in it..will it happen? I guess we’ll see come July when teams are announced

 

[backdrft76]

I guess I'm one of the few, but I wanna see PSU and Iowa both go. I don't care that it's in Tulsa, or funded by Chad. I don't care that it's in November. This sport is slowly dying. Give the fans what they want.

 

[PSU_Pride_93]

IMO - actually given the competition and the timing I think it's too much of a good thing far too early in the season. Also of note, many teams are still determining their starting lineups well into December. Hardly a measure of the best version of any one team that early

Risk of injury, incomplete conditioning, even though we would win $200k - expenses doesn't resonate that strongly.

I say pass!

I know it would never happen this way but after Nationals sounds more interesting.

I understand the sentiment regarding risk of injury but risk of injury is anytime these men step on the mat. If it were me I’d say I’d rather wrestle in this (if i do get injured i could heal up) as opposed to wrestling small D1 competition like Buffalo and American at the end of the year prior to Big Tens. I mean after all Carter got injured in the last dual of the season. Nolf didn’t get injured as late but he was injured at the end of January. Injuries happen and are part of the sport, and they flat out suck. But i wouldn’t use risk of injury as a valid reason to not go, just my opinion.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I guess I'm one of the few, but I wanna see PSU and Iowa both go. I don't care that it's in Tulsa, or funded by Chad. I don't care that it's in November. This sport is slowly dying. Give the fans what they want.

One other thing. You would then have the potential for the other big 10 teams participating, generating the same matchups 4x in one season.

As fun as seeing Barr vs Buchanan four times, it's a bit much. Three is already a pretty good amount. What happens to seedings if #3 and #4 at the weight don't happen to participate, while also not meeting in their conference championships or duals, while the true #1 & #2 split a bunch of matches? I am not a big fan of hypotheticals, and in the end I think does seeding doesn't really mean that much to the best, but the PSU vs the Iowa and tOSU squad members would indeed happen four times if both wrestlers at the same weights keep winning.

 

[Junglekitty]

One other thing. You would then have the potential for the other big 10 teams participating, generating the same matchups 4x in one season.

As fun as seeing Barr vs Buchanan four times, it's a bit much. Three is already a pretty good amount. What if #3 and #4 at the weight don't happen to participate, while also not meeting in their conference championships or duals? I am not a big fan of hypotheticals, but the PSU vs the Iowa and tOSU squad members would indeed happen four times if both wrestlers at the same weights keep winning.

That happens all through high school. Using the WPIAL as an example, guys can meet each other at powerade, counties, sections, wpials, regionals, states, and a dual. Thats 7 times in one season, and they could even be workout partners at a club. It is all perspective. If you're the rabbit, you probably aren't thrilled. If you're the dog, you love it. Great wrestlers and teams don't shy away from competition, they welcome it. That is exactly how all the kids on the roster got to be where they are. When it comes to recruiting rankings and projecting how good a kid will or will not be, we will all knock a kid down a few spots for not wrestling top events. How many times have you read "well he doesn't compete at (insert national tournament here) so he's a bit of an unknown. With all that being said, it definitely changes once you reach this level of wrestling, but it's not unfamiliar territory.

 

[District four]

I'm not sure what my stance is on this. I agree with Cael that you don't need every team in the country to be there and it does in some ways take away from the team aspect at nationals. If Penn State and Iowa don't go and say Ohio State wins national dual tournament does that effect the team aspect at nationals or will it just be about the individual at that point. If you want to grow the sport in my opinion start scheduling big time duals during the season. Add okie state, Virginia tech and NC State to our dual schedule and see who turns out for that. There is a potential to make more money on that happening then a national dual wouldn't you think.

 

[District four]

I'm not sure what my stance is on this. I agree with Cael that you don't need every team in the country to be there and it does in some ways take away from the team aspect at nationals. If Penn State and Iowa don't go and say Ohio State wins national dual tournament does that effect the team aspect at nationals or will it just be about the individual at that point. If you want to grow the sport in my opinion start scheduling big time duals during the season. Add okie state, Virginia tech and NC State to our dual schedule and see who turns out for that. There is a potential to make more money on that happening then a national dual wouldn't you think.

And by affecting the team aspect I was referring to perspective and emphasis on one tournament over the other. For example, we win team score at nationals and Ohio State saying wait a minute we are the team dual champions

 

[Nitlion1986]

And by affecting the team aspect I was referring to perspective and emphasis on one tournament over the other. For example, we win team score at nationals and Ohio State saying wait a minute we are the team dual champions

Yeah, Ryan would tweet something like that. But they only give out a single NCAA championships trophy.
So i don't care if he tweets it out or not. PSU won a couple dual championships, but until Cael showed up PSU had only 1 NCAA championship.

 

[WEAREPSU_LI]

A duals tournament to determine duals champ would indeed be fun, but the tournament where you have entrees and wrestlers make their way to an individual title is by far the most exciting thing in college sports.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Apparently Cael has said hard no to this. Wish he would come to the table at least to get it done. I understand not wanting to "help" okstate by attending in Tulsa. But as the big dog, he can negotiate to get this done (rotating venues, bigger prize pool, etc)

It ain't national duals without you guys.

edit: to add: no Iowa either.
Event should be scrapped if you don't have both.

It quite literally does nothing to grow the sport of wrestling. It's just a hat tip to those who are already fans. Spend that $2M every year promoting HS wrestling. That's where wrestling fandom actually begins. Why do we keep misdirecting the starting point to grow the sport?

 

[Nitlion1986]

Even if PSU doesn't participate this is something I would make a point to watch.

 

[PAgeologist]

So many people talking about expenses. Did you read the article? "All participating teams will receive $20,000 for attending." And scoffing at $200k. How much are the prizes at CKLV, Soldier Salute, Southern Scuffle, etc?

I'm surprised by the number of negative comments in general. Feels crazy to see so many wrestling fans pooh-poohing the idea of more high level wrestling.

It's not us fans that are crapping on the idea. I would think most of us would love it. The more matches the better in my opinion.

The negative comments are a reflection of Caels thoughts. PSU isn't attending. Period. Cael has a very structured training and match program and this doesn't fit. It would take an NCAA mandate for PSU to attend.

 

[Sullivan]

We already wrestle a Big 10 schedule. Some schools may need the national duals to beef up their schedule.

 

[nittinsc]

I'm not sure what my stance is on this. I agree with Cael that you don't need every team in the country to be there and it does in some ways take away from the team aspect at nationals. If Penn State and Iowa don't go and say Ohio State wins national dual tournament does that effect the team aspect at nationals or will it just be about the individual at that point. If you want to grow the sport in my opinion start scheduling big time duals during the season. Add okie state, Virginia tech and NC State to our dual schedule and see who turns out for that. There is a potential to make more money on that happening then a national dual wouldn't you think.

Self-serving,, but I'd like to see some sort of BIG-ACC challenge weekend. Friday and Sunday doubleheaders at two Big schools and at two ACC schools. Example -PSU-Rutger visit VA Tech and- Virgina or NC-NCST on same weekend and two ACC teams visit two Big teams.

 

[vhsalum]

It quite literally does nothing to grow the sport of wrestling. It's just a hat tip to those who are already fans. Spend that $2M every year promoting HS wrestling. That's where wrestling fandom actually begins. Why do we keep misdirecting the starting point to grow the sport?

This isn't true. Wrestling has ZERO big events until January. But yet, the season starts in October.

Now, I'm not saying National Duals is some "savior" to college wrestling. And i think that's what Cael is hung up on. It's not about saving the sport or saying that duals are better for the sport (even though they are).

This LITERALLY grows the sport of wrestling if PSU and Iowa are involved. It's a marquee event that broadcasting rights are going to be sold to. You're obviously going to need the commitment in the long-term in order for the event to be truly great and grand and all those things.

We need more events, which Cael alluded to. But he just doesn't want to be involved in national duals. And it seems like - in ANY way at all. Which is fine, and I'm not going to call him a bad guy or scared or anything like that.

It just SUCKS that he's so adamant that he/PSU won't be involved.

 

[AgSurfer]

The decision not to go might not be concern about injuries. Cael seems to have developed a formula on how to get the team to produce the optimal results when it counts - third week in March. Some might say it's just because of better recruiting, but it seems like Penn State has gotten even better at the NCAA tournament in the last 5-6 years compared to how they did previously. Even when Iowa won in 2021, we still showed them up in the finals. It might be that part of the formula involves limiting the exposure to intense competition. We haven't gone to a major early/midseason tournament in a while. So he might have a solid reason for not wanting to go to Tulsa for the duals tournament, but he's not willing to share it with the general public.

Of course it might also be that he just doesn't like Tulsa as a place to visit.

 

[Still in State College]

I don't know the numbers, but does PSU wrestling turn a profit every year? I always assumed all wrestling programs, lost money or best case broke even

They lose. Not as much as most sports but they are negative to about $500,000.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

One other thing. You would then have the potential for the other big 10 teams participating, generating the same matchups 4x in one season.

Pretty good point. The National Duals would almost result in dual meets that are already scheduled for later in the conference season. This could be controlled by bracket separation during the first couples, but at some point match-ups like PSU/Iowa, PSU/Ohio State, and Okie State/Iowa would be inevitable.

Maybe that's not a problem per se, but is likely another reason that Sanderson doesn't like the idea.

 

[Pennstate1985]

This isn't true. Wrestling has ZERO big events until January. But yet, the season starts in October.

Now, I'm not saying National Duals is some "savior" to college wrestling. And i think that's what Cael is hung up on. It's not about saving the sport or saying that duals are better for the sport (even though they are).

This LITERALLY grows the sport of wrestling if PSU and Iowa are involved. It's a marquee event that broadcasting rights are going to be sold to. You're obviously going to need the commitment in the long-term in order for the event to be truly great and grand and all those things.

We need more events, which Cael alluded to. But he just doesn't want to be involved in national duals. And it seems like - in ANY way at all. Which is fine, and I'm not going to call him a bad guy or scared or anything like that.

It just SUCKS that he's so adamant that he/PSU won't be involved.

I just don't understand thinking like this. This LITERALLY will NOT grow the sport of wrestling one iota. Who cares about National Duals? Fans that are already invested in the sport. Watching a dual meet doesn't make a lifelong fan. It's getting them involved in the sport and learning the life lessons that are taught in the room by coaches. I fell in love with wrestling by being involved and not by watching a dual meet. This whole concept is wrong-headed. To grow a sport require many years of effort at the grassroots level. As an example, just look at soccer in the US. No one cared about soccer until soccer grew the sport at the HS level. Then those who played became the fans who go to matches.

 

[El-Jefe]

This isn't true. Wrestling has ZERO big events until January. But yet, the season starts in October.

Now, I'm not saying National Duals is some "savior" to college wrestling. And i think that's what Cael is hung up on. It's not about saving the sport or saying that duals are better for the sport (even though they are).

This LITERALLY grows the sport of wrestling if PSU and Iowa are involved. It's a marquee event that broadcasting rights are going to be sold to. You're obviously going to need the commitment in the long-term in order for the event to be truly great and grand and all those things.

We need more events, which Cael alluded to. But he just doesn't want to be involved in national duals. And it seems like - in ANY way at all. Which is fine, and I'm not going to call him a bad guy or scared or anything like that.

It just SUCKS that he's so adamant that he/PSU won't be involved.

The season starts in November, and CKLV isn't a big event?

 

[7brwnpsu]

This isn't true. Wrestling has ZERO big events until January. But yet, the season starts in October.

Now, I'm not saying National Duals is some "savior" to college wrestling. And i think that's what Cael is hung up on. It's not about saving the sport or saying that duals are better for the sport (even though they are).

This LITERALLY grows the sport of wrestling if PSU and Iowa are involved. It's a marquee event that broadcasting rights are going to be sold to. You're obviously going to need the commitment in the long-term in order for the event to be truly great and grand and all those things.

We need more events, which Cael alluded to. But he just doesn't want to be involved in national duals. And it seems like - in ANY way at all. Which is fine, and I'm not going to call him a bad guy or scared or anything like that.

It just SUCKS that he's so adamant that he/PSU won't be involved.

I think the individuals that run the Cliff Keen would argue with you.

Sometimes my Grey cells don't work so well, but I think there was a time that Penn State wanted to wrestle Iowa off the mandatory Big10 schedule and someone in Iowa wanted to parts of it. No growth there!


Growing the sport is when Nebraska sets an attendance record, not some tornament in November.

Plus a National Dual should be winner take all. $$$ Spencer Lee taught me that!

 

[7brwnpsu]

El, you beat me to it! No wonder my 9th grade typing teacher gave me a D+.

 

[AgSurfer]

The season starts in November, and CKLV isn't a big event?

Details, details, details. 🧐

 

[vhsalum]

I just don't understand thinking like this. This LITERALLY will NOT grow the sport of wrestling one iota. Who cares about National Duals? Fans that are already invested in the sport. Watching a dual meet doesn't make a lifelong fan. It's getting them involved in the sport and learning the life lessons that are taught in the room by coaches. I fell in love with wrestling by being involved and not by watching a dual meet. This whole concept is wrong-headed. To grow a sport require many years of effort at the grassroots level. As an example, just look at soccer in the US. No one cared about soccer until soccer grew the sport at the HS level. Then those who played became the fans who go to matches.

I think the individuals that run the Cliff Keen would argue with you.

Sometimes my Grey cells don't work so well, but I think there was a time that Penn State wanted to wrestle Iowa off the mandatory Big10 schedule and someone in Iowa wanted to parts of it. No growth there!


Growing the sport is when Nebraska sets an attendance record, not some tornament in November.

Plus a National Dual should be winner take all. $$$ Spencer Lee taught me that!

So yeah. exactly. You guys are making my point. Duals grow the sport. You can sell that. Teams. It's Iowa setting the attendance record, right?

It's teams - not individuals that will grow the sport. We have to start somewhere and individual tournaments are not it. Duals are easy to understand, easy to consume. I'm not speaking Mandarin here. We all knows Duals are much more palatable to the casual fan.

 

[Pennstate1985]

So yeah. exactly. You guys are making my point. Duals grow the sport. You can sell that. Teams. It's Iowa setting the attendance record, right?

It's teams - not individuals that will grow the sport. We have to start somewhere and individual tournaments are not it. Duals are easy to understand, easy to consume. I'm not speaking Mandarin here. We all knows Duals are much more palatable to the casual fan.

High schools duals mean a heck of a lot more to the growth of the sport than National Duals. Put that $2M annually into the growth of the sport country-wide. That would grow the sport. I'd love to see more collegiate wrestling but let's not equate National Duals to growing the sport. It just won't get you there.

 

[Roar More]

Sometimes my Grey cells don't work so well, but I think there was a time that Penn State wanted to wrestle Iowa off the mandatory Big10 schedule and someone in Iowa wanted to parts of it.

Iowa and Penn State were not scheduled to meet for a two years stretch. Brands agreed to a home and home during those years. In the first year, Penn State went to Iowa and handed them their lunch. Iowa did not honor the commitment to return to Penn State the following year. If I remember correctly, Cael texted something to start the aborted series that read (paraphrasing), "There seems to be something missing from the schedule.:

 

[MikeDerukey]

So many people talking about expenses. Did you read the article? "All participating teams will receive $20,000 for attending." And scoffing at $200k. How much are the prizes at CKLV, Soldier Salute, Southern Scuffle, etc?

I'm surprised by the number of negative comments in general. Feels crazy to see so many wrestling fans pooh-poohing the idea of more high level wrestling.

Do you get $20k to attend to cover expenses and then $200k on top of it? Or does every team get $20k for attending and if you make the finals you get the additional $180k to get you to $200k?

My guess is that it's not $20k to attend plus $200k for winning. It'll be $200k total and you then expenses cut into that.

 

[MikeDerukey]

And by affecting the team aspect I was referring to perspective and emphasis on one tournament over the other. For example, we win team score at nationals and Ohio State saying wait a minute we are the team dual champions

Well what happens if let's say Ohio State mops the floor at the National Duals and then say the host PSU in January or February for a dual and PSU mops the floor with them? Do you think Tom will still want to brag about being dual champs after having their clock cleaned in a dual by PSU?

 

[El-Jefe]

Well what happens if let's say Ohio State mops the floor at the National Duals and then say the host PSU in January or February for a dual and PSU mops the floor with them? Do you think Tom will still want to brag about being dual champs after having their clock cleaned in a dual by PSU?

Does the sun rise in the east?

 

[GogglesPaizano]

2 more thoughts

1). 16 teams is too many for the primary purpose of finding the best dual squad in the nation. One could argue keep it to 4, but given it's pre/early season with new squads maybe 8. Realistically, the bottom 8 of 16 really can't even compete in this event.

2). Ultimately it will come down to Cael's assessment, and I really do not think the timing and structure fits well with his 10" binder that governs and details every single activity of his master plan. All kidding aside he has a very well controlled plan and this event ain't in it. Might that change? Maybe, but I doubt it.

 

[Rhino80]

Easy solution, they hold national duals without PSU, winner gets PSU at a neutral site one week later. Problem solved!!!

 

[vhsalum]

Well what happens if let's say Ohio State mops the floor at the National Duals and then say the host PSU in January or February for a dual and PSU mops the floor with them? Do you think Tom will still want to brag about being dual champs after having their clock cleaned in a dual by PSU?

Let's not bring TanTom into this. His ability to say the most ridiculous things that you didn't know were possible is ad infinitum.

 

[vhsalum]

High schools duals mean a heck of a lot more to the growth of the sport than National Duals. Put that $2M annually into the growth of the sport country-wide. That would grow the sport. I'd love to see more collegiate wrestling but let's not equate National Duals to growing the sport. It just won't get you there.

That's nonsensical and you know it. High school wrestling doesn't grow the sport of NCAA D1 wrestling. We need revenue-generating events to do that.

Which this is - an event. And specifically duals - because you can actually draw in someone who doesn't know the sport. I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. National Duals - in November, CAN grow the sport. It's not the savior of the sport - and no one is saying that. But it is an event that will/could draw casual eyes. If you truly had all the major powers there - it would be huge. Without PSU, its a good event, but not the best it could be.

 

[MikeDerukey]

So yeah. exactly. You guys are making my point. Duals grow the sport. You can sell that. Teams. It's Iowa setting the attendance record, right?

It's teams - not individuals that will grow the sport. We have to start somewhere and individual tournaments are not it. Duals are easy to understand, easy to consume. I'm not speaking Mandarin here. We all knows Duals are much more palatable to the casual fan.

I am not sure I agree here. I grew up wrestling. I understand wrestling. I love watching wrestling. However I have friends who were completely unfamiliar with wrestling before Cael got to PSU who love it now because of a specific wrestler. For example, one of my buddies got into PSU wrestling because he loved watching Bo Nickal because I made him watch PSU wrestling. Every person that I know that got into PSU wrestling after Cael arrived became a fan because they saw a specific guy and became a wrestling fan.

I know that's anecdotal but I bet Spencer Lee has had the same effect on people.

 

[MikeDerukey]

Let's not bring TanTom into this. His ability to say the most ridiculous things that you didn't know were possible is ad infinitum.

Well I cannot argue with you there.

 

[Creek Side]

Easy solution, they hold national duals without PSU, winner gets PSU at a neutral site one week later. Problem solved!!!

And we all still know who is going to win that don't we.

There. I just solved the whole ordeal of needing National Duals.