National Duals next season

[Nitlion1986]

So yeah. exactly. You guys are making my point. Duals grow the sport. You can sell that. Teams. It's Iowa setting the attendance record, right?

It's teams - not individuals that will grow the sport. We have to start somewhere and individual tournaments are not it. Duals are easy to understand, easy to consume. I'm not speaking Mandarin here. We all knows Duals are much more palatable to the casual fan.

It isn't that duals draw people. They can. Nebraska drew a record for a match where Nebraska fans had a good idea they were going to get beat badly, but there good matchups against that Penn State fan.

ISU V Cornell isn't drawing much and a big part is because of the sit my athlete down stuff.

This isn't anything until it is. Have a highly promoted Dual Tournment without PSU and Iowa. Make it an event. See if the kitty can be grown, see if you can get your marquee teams to put their prime lineups on the mat.
Somewhere along the line maybe it becomes something PSU and/or Iowa wants to participate in.

 

[vhsalum]

I am not sure I agree here. I grew up wrestling. I understand wrestling. I love watching wrestling. However I have friends who were completely unfamiliar with wrestling before Cael got to PSU who love it now because of a specific wrestler. For example, one of my buddies got into PSU wrestling because he loved watching Bo Nickal because I made him watch PSU wrestling. Every person that I know that got into PSU wrestling after Cael arrived became a fan because they saw a specific guy and became a wrestling fan.

I know that's anecdotal but I bet Spencer Lee has had the same effect on people.

But that's kinda the point. So many things help the sport grow. National Duals is just one thing. Not the only thing - and not the savior. And fans love their teams. So if you combine the best teams with the best events, in an easily digested format, you're going to "grow" wrestling.

 

[AgSurfer]

I know that's anecdotal but I bet Spencer Lee has had the same effect on people.

Lee's effect on people is to cause them to visit Walmart for new eyeglasses. 😈

 

[MikeDerukey]

But that's kinda the point. So many things help the sport grow. National Duals is just one thing. Not the only thing - and not the savior. And fans love their teams. So if you combine the best teams with the best events, in an easily digested format, you're going to "grow" wrestling.

That's a fair point. I mean, more wrestling available for people to easily watch is never a bad thing to grow the sport. The more available the happier I am personally as well.

 

[MikeDerukey]

Lee's effect on people is to cause them to visit Walmart for new eyeglasses. 😈

I know that's low hanging fruit but I don't really enjoy making fun of people's parents. I've reacted as poorly as she did to my team losing in the past as well and I didn't even have a son on the team.

 

[cowboyfan05]

Do you get $20k to attend to cover expenses and then $200k on top of it? Or does every team get $20k for attending and if you make the finals you get the additional $180k to get you to $200k?

The prize money is in addition to the first $20k. It's implied in the article as 5th through 8th (not 16th) get $50k to $20k respectively.

 

[AgSurfer]

I know that's low hanging fruit but I don't really enjoy making fun of people's parents. I've reacted as poorly as she did to my team losing in the past as well and I didn't even have a son on the team.

If I were the first to bring that up, I would agree with you. But by now, it has entered into the realm of standard forum jokes.

PS - if there's anyone to really blame, it's the ESPN camera crew for focusing on Lee's mom and then broadcasting it to the world.

 

[PAgeologist]

Does the sun rise in the east?

Way more important question... Does the sun rise in Aruba?

 

[PAgeologist]

Which is better attended? PA dual tournament or individual tournament? I'd bet the Individual tournament and it's not even close.

Think duals are a big deal? Flip on ESPN+ and look at all the empty seats for some of the meets they broadcast.

How many new fans are you really going to draw with this event in Tulsa?

As someone mentioned previously, a BIG-ACC-B12-Ivy challenge would likely accomplish more at less cost to the programs. I know it was tried before and failed, but it still seems a better idea than National Duals.

I know it's mainly a supply and demand issue, but I see the casual fan being essentially locked out of attending Nationals as more of a problem for sport growth on a collegiate level.

 

[vhsalum]

Which is better attended? PA dual tournament or individual tournament? I'd bet the Individual tournament and it's not even close.

Think duals are a big deal? Flip on ESPN+ and look at all the empty seats for some of the meets they broadcast.

How many new fans are you really going to draw with this event in Tulsa?

As someone mentioned previously, a BIG-ACC-B12-Ivy challenge would likely accomplish more at less cost to the programs. I know it was tried before and failed, but it still seems a better idea than National Duals.

I know it's mainly a supply and demand issue, but I see the casual fan being essentially locked out of attending Nationals as more of a problem for sport growth on a collegiate level.

Can't compare high school to college. And tradition (and total population of competitors) has way more to do with the the individual tournament being better attended.

Duals are consistently the best attended college wrestling events. Obviously NCAAs is king, because its the chips.

We can't compare ourselves to basketball. We're just not there yet (and obviously ever). National duals is just one template that will grow the sport - simply because its a big event that is being sold/marketed/broadcast as such.

 

[McScoreley]

My main thought is this is a tremendous event and I wish PSU would participate. Similar to how I wish PA shows up to Fargo and the Tulsa Nationals Dual in full force but they don't and I completely get why. I will watch with great interest, similar to how I watch CKLV and other big duals with great interest.

People can say whatever they want about Cael not showing up but it's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention it really comes down to the fact he has his system down at this point to peak in March and participating in a big folk event (possibly where a bulk of his guys are not in their best shape and can risk injury more) in November as a team is not one of them.

NWCA is a little different since he can handle that on a case by case basis for 4-5 wrestlers, and it's one match against an opponent they predetermined months in advance probably.

Another thing to consider, wouldn't rule out multiple starters in his future lineup wanting to participate in U20/U23 worlds. Just looking at our potential lineup next year, Luke, Blaze, Duke, Kasak, Ryder, both Mirasolas are all U20 eligible still. Everyone else is basically U23 eligible. I imagine there is a chance SVN, Levi, Mitch, Barr could all potentially want to be wrestling U23s in October.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I just don't understand thinking like this. This LITERALLY will NOT grow the sport of wrestling one iota. Who cares about National Duals? Fans that are already invested in the sport. Watching a dual meet doesn't make a lifelong fan. It's getting them involved in the sport and learning the life lessons that are taught in the room by coaches. I fell in love with wrestling by being involved and not by watching a dual meet. This whole concept is wrong-headed. To grow a sport require many years of effort at the grassroots level. As an example, just look at soccer in the US. No one cared about soccer until soccer grew the sport at the HS level. Then those who played became the fans who go to matches.

sort of agree. During football season, you're probably not going to get many new viewers. I think the duals we went to this year were good, add one more match for the group winners. Selfishly, I like to watch wrestling and our guys

 

[Pennstate1985]

That's nonsensical and you know it. High school wrestling doesn't grow the sport of NCAA D1 wrestling. We need revenue-generating events to do that.

Which this is - an event. And specifically duals - because you can actually draw in someone who doesn't know the sport. I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. National Duals - in November, CAN grow the sport. It's not the savior of the sport - and no one is saying that. But it is an event that will/could draw casual eyes. If you truly had all the major powers there - it would be huge. Without PSU, its a good event, but not the best it could be.

You can’t grow D1 without growing the fanbase. D1 has shown over many decades that they are unable to grow the fanbase. It can only be grown at a lower level. I can’t believe that I need to explain reality to you.

National Duals excites diehard fans like us. No one else will give a crap. How’s that for a reality check?

 

[Pennstate1985]

sort of agree. During football season, you're probably not going to get many new viewers. I think the duals we went to this year were good, add one more match for the group winners. Selfishly, I like to watch wrestling and our guys

My point is simply that national duals is a nice event but doesn’t fix any structural issues in our sport. I advocate using the proceeds from this event to address some of those structural issues

 

[El-Jefe]

Let's not bring TanTom into this. His ability to say the most ridiculous things that you didn't know were possible is ad infinitum Positive Infinty.

FIFY

 

[El-Jefe]

Which is better attended? PA dual tournament or individual tournament? I'd bet the Individual tournament and it's not even close.

PIAA moved state duals from the Giant Center in Hershey, to Altoona HS.

They didn't do it for extra capacity.

 

[NittanyChris]

I have every confidence that Cael will do whatever is in Penn State’s best interest, as he well should. In so doing, the continuation of PSU’s excellence will do more to grow the sport than any “National” Duals held in November.

 

[Foreverinbluejeans57]

Really wish ALL PA D1 schools would wrestle an early tournament, like a Keystone classic that everyone agrees to. Very little overlap between conferences, and everyone can get behind their college team and maybe some local kids from their district.

 

[NoVa Lion]

You can’t grow D1 without growing the fanbase. D1 has shown over many decades that they are unable to grow the fanbase. It can only be grown at a lower level. I can’t believe that I need to explain reality to you.

National Duals excites diehard fans like us. No one else will give a crap. How’s that for a reality check?

Sorry but that is not true. Demand for NCAA tickets and BIG Conference tickets has shot thru the roof over the last 15 years or so. In 2011 at Philly the Penn State Wrestling Club bought a section of club seats at $250 each. Doing the same thing this year but the price is now $2,500 each and we had NO problem selling them.

 

[SCub]

Wrestling is ultimately an individual sport. Sure teammates root for each other and get excited beating a big rival. But largely it’s an individual sport, where - to most high level wrestlers - winning NCAA, world and Olympic championships is all that matters. Winning as a team means having the most successful individuals. When PSU had 4 champs but IOWA won the team championships with 1 champ - who felt better???
Cael is focused on getting his individuals to peak in March, and I can’t see him deviating from that for $$$.

 

[OzarkLion]

Personally, I love it and I love that they're holding it within driving distance to me. Easier to talk the wife into thay trip than another flight like Nationals!

 

[AgSurfer]

Sorry but that is not true. Demand for NCAA tickets and BIG Conference tickets has shot thru the roof over the last 15 years or so. In 2011 at Philly the Penn State Wrestling Club bought a section of club seats at $250 each. Doing the same thing this year but the price is now $2,500 each and we had NO problem selling them.

As I mentioned in another post, demand sets prices. More and more wrestling fans are eager to see Penn State demolish Iowa in the NCAA tournament, consequently the price of tickets is skyrocketing. If you want to see lower ticket prices, you’ll have to accept a weaker PSU program. Can’t have it both ways. 🤔

 

[PAgeologist]

Can't compare high school to college. And tradition (and total population of competitors) has way more to do with the the individual tournament being better attended.

Duals are consistently the best attended college wrestling events. Obviously NCAAs is king, because its the chips.

We can't compare ourselves to basketball. We're just not there yet (and obviously ever). National duals is just one template that will grow the sport - simply because its a big event that is being sold/marketed/broadcast as such.

Regardless, I still think a VT-PSU (or similar matchup) draws more at either campus than it would at Tulsa.

And I'll compare basketball to wrestling... basketball sucks ass. Wrestling is awesome.

 

[District four]

I have every confidence that Cael will do whatever is in Penn State’s best interest, as he well should. In so doing, the continuation of PSU’s excellence will do more to grow the sport than any “National” Duals held in November.

I'm wondering how much the holidays plays into this as well I'm thinking Cael has a strict regimen in place so kids can see family and get academic stuff under control before leaving for the holidays. A tournament in November will definitely change some of that. Just spit balling. I don't think Cael feels differently no matter when it's held but November is both a good time and a tricky time

 

[Sportfan2017]

My two cents:
If you want to call it "National" Duals then a good number of teams should be invited. The problem with that is.....if you have 16 teams that is 4 duals of increasing difficulty very early in the season. Is that best for your team? How will that affect other tournaments like Cliff Keen? Are teams going to want to enter 2 meat-grinder weekends within a few weeks of each other that early in the season? What about the current early competing tournaments like the Black Knight Open and other smaller tournaments? They will cease to exist or be so watered down that interest will be minimal.

I'm pretty certain that Cael and a few others will not see much advantage in entering. Perhaps if the top 4 teams get a bye like in football......they can run the first phase of the tournament in Tulsa or another site. Invite 16 teams ( minus the top 4). Run that tournament to get to the final 4.....which is only 2 matches. Then....at a later date and location.......run the mini tournament of 8 to determine the championship. Only 3 matches. Of course you can also choose to run the final 8 to get to the final 2 teams ( only 2 matches ) and then....on a different date and location.....have the final match ( or include #3 and #4 ) to determine the champ. I like this idea even better. It will give extra time to build up the matches and individuals through media and spread the tournament to 3 different locations. It works in basketball and football. The added benefit is that a team like Penn State would only have to compete in 2 matches one weekend and then hopefully the finals at a later date. I believe Cael and others may be far more likely to compete in this scenario. Greater exposure in different areas would benefit wrestling. I like it

 

[Pennstate1985]

Sorry but that is not true. Demand for NCAA tickets and BIG Conference tickets has shot thru the roof over the last 15 years or so. In 2011 at Philly the Penn State Wrestling Club bought a section of club seats at $250 each. Doing the same thing this year but the price is now $2,500 each and we had NO problem selling them.

The price of a ticket to a particular event has zero to do with the overall health of the sport. That event may be healthy but the underlying sport may still be doing poorly.

 

[CropDuster507]

Can you imagine the ducking that would go on?

I remember back in HS, we went to UNI when they hosted National Duals proper. I also remember losing any fandom I had for the U of M when they sent the JV out to wrestle because 2 guys were banged up and we got none of the marquee matchups. We went because our HS had guys at multiple JUCOS, D3's, and D2's.

This sounds great, but you better show up with a duck call.

 

[Folkstylefan]

again we debate a national dual, only because taylor mentioned it. For those that want this name the top 16 teams, hell top 10, and then tell me how many have a chance to make the semifinals. Wrestling is an individual sport with a team aspect to it. Just like T&F, swimming, fencing, boxing, diving ect.. bb,BB, sb, fb all team sports.
You cannot compare basketball playoffs that has been that big because of gambling, and the nature of the game makes it easy for weaker teams to upset others. Football is similar now with the rule changes and gambling.

 

[rcsone1]

...could this become later through TV and such a highly sponsored event with more revenue for the sport overall?....in major college football, which came first the game or the sponsors?....after trying this event, could it "help" wrestling interest over time?....I do not see a decline of participation doing anything positive for any level of wrestling interest...........best to all..........rs

 

[Sullivan]

If they want to get Cael's interest, they need to up the ante to about $5 million, and make it winner take all.

 

[backdrft76]

Byers throws in his 2 cents.

 

[tullfan68]

LOL no PSU no team dual champion as usual they all will be wrestling for 2nd!

 

[tullfan68]

worse things about the Dual champ in Nov most teams will not be in top shape yet and I am sure some coaches may not put out some wrestlers that will lose due to rankings!

 

[PD4thespawn]

Byers throws in his 2 cents.

View embedded media

Never play the other man's game. Especially when its some upstarts idea.

 

[316_Lyons]

Sorry but that is not true. Demand for NCAA tickets and BIG Conference tickets has shot thru the roof over the last 15 years or so. In 2011 at Philly the Penn State Wrestling Club bought a section of club seats at $250 each. Doing the same thing this year but the price is now $2,500 each and we had NO problem selling them.

Can't help but think Penn State's and Ohio State's emergence as legit team title threats, both with large followings, had a lot to do with ticket demand going through the roof. It doesn't take much to push demand past supply in a 20,000 seat arena, and Penn State/Ohio State were just the fan bases to do that.

 

[vhsalum]

worse things about the Dual champ in Nov most teams will not be in top shape yet and I am sure some coaches may not put out some wrestlers that will lose due to rankings!

I think it being in November means its less likely guys will sit/duck matches. Plenty of time to make it up with the entire season pretty much in front of you.

Getting "in shape" is not that big of a deal. All of these programs have their guys going in August. Schedule an easy dual the week prior just to get guys down to weight and they'll be fine.

 

[doubleboots]

I think it being in November means its less likely guys will sit/duck matches. Plenty of time to make it up with the entire season pretty much in front of you.

Getting "in shape" is not that big of a deal. All of these programs have their guys going in August. Schedule an easy dual the week prior just to get guys down to weight and they'll be fine.

 

[El-Jefe]

I think it being in November means its less likely guys will sit/duck matches. Plenty of time to make it up with the entire season pretty much in front of you.

Getting "in shape" is not that big of a deal. All of these programs have their guys going in August. Schedule an easy dual the week prior just to get guys down to weight and they'll be fine.

It's an excellent opportunity for shirting freshmen to get multiple matches within 1 competition date.

 

[pish69]

The more I think about this, probably the best way to have a National Duals without the B1G vs B1G repeat matches is going back how they did it a few years ago. Take top 5 B1G teams and match them up with highest ranked non conference teams. You would get a true #1 and it would only be 1 match if that’s the main concern.

I believe Cael liked that format but it was kind of ruined with the Brands orange incident that year.

Downside of this event is it’s in Feb and close to conference ( Suriano out for yr at this event).

 

[horraybeer]

Can't compare high school to college. And tradition (and total population of competitors) has way more to do with the the individual tournament being better attended.

Duals are consistently the best attended college wrestling events. Obviously NCAAs is king, because its the chips.

We can't compare ourselves to basketball. We're just not there yet (and obviously ever). National duals is just one template that will grow the sport - simply because its a big event that is being sold/marketed/broadcast as such.

When you wrestled for Iowa, did you guys focus on National Duals or the NCAA Championships?