Natural Ability and Achievements

[Sullivan]

Two questions regarding Penn State wresters during the Cael coaching era at PSU:

1. Which PSU wrestler had the most overall natural ability or athleticism?
For example, was it: Bo, DT, Ruth, Zain, Nolf, Wright, Frank, Cenzo, others?

2. Which Penn State wrestler achieved the most (given their athleticism/natural ability)?

 

[nerfstate]

I think DT probably had the best High School career, right? But he was already working harder than almost anyone then too. Tough one to call, IMO. where does natural ability end, and work ethic/passion begin?

In recent times, I’m thinking Cassar has the most sheer athleticism. EZ ed not far behind. Bo & Cenzo haz hipz though. Impossible debate.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

I think DT probably had the best High School career, right? But he was already working harder than almost anyone then too. Tough one to call, IMO. where does natural ability end, and work ethic/passion begin?

In recent times, I’m thinking Cassar has the most sheer athleticism. EZ ed not far behind. Bo & Cenzo haz hipz though. Impossible debate.

Cassar, Brown.

What did Matt even do in HS?

Mark Hall was 420-0 with 12 state titles (or sumpin like that)

 

[PSUer1989]

Since there is no way to absolutely answer the question, I go with Devin Schnupp for work ethic and getting the most out of his ability. I have never seen a practice but Devin went out every week against the odds and gave it his all. I really admire that!

 

[y2jriden]

I think Nico got the absolute most out of his ability. Did anyone expect coming in that he'd go 2-2-3-1? Making the finals the first year was an unbelievable run.

That being said, it's impossible really come with an answer.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

I think Nico got the absolute most out of his ability. Did anyone expect coming in that he'd go 2-2-3-1? Making the finals the first year was an unbelievable run.

That being said, it's impossible really come with an answer.

Nico wasnt even the best in the ROOM!!

Seriously

Good choice, we were sitting amongst ISU fans in MSG when Gilman beat Nato in semis and they couldn’t understand why I was so happy. I knew Nico could beat Gilman, but Nato seemed to have his number that year.
Sure enough, Nico won. I coulda walked out of the arena and not regretted it, I had seen what I so badly wanted to for 4 years.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

It would be interesting to see a test of overall athletic ability. Speed, agility, strength, etc. No doubt they're all beyond the curve athletically, but who rises to the top of that list?

 

[PSUcup1]

Ruth had the most natural ability IMO.... but Nolf and Bo are close.

 

[PSUranger]

Natural, born-with-it, seemed to come easily? I think Ed Ruth and Bo Nickal were both like cats. They both seemed to always land on their feet no matter how you dropped them. You can'T teach that.

 

[dbldoofus]

James English. Not sure his natural ability, but with the obstacles/injuries he faced, his AA finish was impressive and just freaking awesome

 

[El-Jefe]

Cassar, Brown.

What did Matt even do in HS?

Other than be a 3x state champ and top 100 recruit?

 

[nitlion6]

Ed, Bo and Quentin are the 3 who if tied into a knot, hands cuffed behind their back, spun at a rate of 150 rpms then flipped backwards ass over end would always land perfectly in a superior position.

 

[NoVa Lion]

Two questions regarding Penn State wresters during the Cael coaching era at PSU:

1. Which PSU wrestler had the most overall natural ability?
For example, was it: Bo, DT, Ruth, Zain, Nolf, Wright, Frank, Cenzo, others?

2. Which Penn State wrestler achieved the most (given their natural ability)?

Questions that cannot be answered since these things can't be measured, so it is all opinion in the eye of the beholder. My question is why do you even want to ask these questions?

 

[diggerpup]

This would be a great topic to post on HR if someone wanted to win a “Sandusky Award”, or kickstart a rant on PEDs or Bael’s recruiting + slush fund.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I always like these debates because the best all around athlete in the room may not even be a starter or a national champ. I would like to see how many of the PSU wrestlers were athletes in other sports and excelled? Didn't your old 184 pounder Matt McCutcheon play baseball in college. He would be in the conversation. Have to have great hand eye coordination to do that.

I will say I personally have had a chance to meet Bo Nickel at a camp in Iowa and he was playing basketball with some kids and could shoot and move around. Not a lot of wrestlers can do that. Id say Bo is pretty special athletically regardless. IMO thats why he kept moving up and sticking larger wrestlers who just weren't as athletic. He is a great kid and anyone who knocks on him has never met the kid. I will always pull for him!

IMO fine line between all around great athlete and being an awesome wrestler.

I can tell you first hand back in my days at Iowa that a team that had Joe WIlliams, McIllravy, Ironside etc. The best athlete and Dan Gable will tell you this was Joe Williams back up named Cory Christianson. was a 3x state champ and transfered to a D3 school and was an all american running back and national wrestling champ. Gable use to say when the team went out and played flag football, the team captains all fought over picking him first. Couldnt beat out Joe Williams but pick another sport and he was the best in the room. Well except maybe boxing. Joe Williams could have been a pretty good boxer had he focused on it.

 

[El-Jefe]

16 posts in, zero mentions of RBY.

 

[jbkeller72]

Bubba Jenkins was super athletic, as was Garrett Scott in his brief tenure. I'd go with Ruth or Phil Davis though. I'm a district 3 guy so I am partial to the local guys.

As for getting the most out of his ability, maybe Conaway? Cenzo doesn't appear to be all that athletic, but does have some physical attributes (hips, strength, timing) that make him a great wrestler

 

[pawrestlersintn]

16 posts in, zero mentions of RBY.

TBF, I don't think any other true sophomores have been mentioned, either.

 

[El-Jefe]

I always like these debates because the best all around athlete in the room may not even be a starter or a national champ. I would like to see how many of the PSU wrestlers were athletes in other sports and excelled? Didn't your old 184 pounder Matt McCutcheon play baseball in college. He would be in the conversation. Have to have great hand eye coordination to do that.

You're right about McCutcheon (mostly). He did play baseball his last semester at PSU. His role and stats were in line with a guy who hadn't played in 4 years, and never at that level, but he did do it IIRC he was a college baseball recruit.

Also, Penn State's starting middle linebacker was on the wrestling team for a couple years.

 

[STAND with PRIDE]

Ive had enough of this speculation, I am putting together an ally-go-rhythm that takes into account HS record, college record, strength of schedule, flexibility, dead-lift maxes,mat-awareness, hair color, natural ability vs coach taught ability,uniqueness of post match celebrations,national championships,preference of charcoal/pellet grills,big ten championships, lip tattoos,speed, walk in music,weight cut, parental size,ability to quickly return from a serious injury, head-gear tightness,and finally, your record in on-line dream match-ups.
All other ideas will be ignored.
Stay tuned, this may take a while.

 

[El-Jefe]

Ive had enough of this speculation, I am putting together an ally-go-rhythm that takes into account HS record, college record, strength of schedule, flexibility, dead-lift maxes,mat-awareness, hair color, natural ability, coach taught ability,uniqueness of post match celebrations,national championships,preference of charcoal/pellet grills,big ten championships, lip tattoos,speed, walk in music,weight cut, parental size,ability to quickly return from a serious injury, head-gear tightness,and finally, your record in on-line dream match-ups.
All other ideas will be ignored.
Stay tuned, this may take a while.

Add shotgun chugging speed and call it the Downey Scale.

 

[tikk10]

Athleticism is one of those terms that holds a slightly different meaning for everyone, so debates about greatest athlete are usually all over the place. For me, it's the measure of innate ability; naturally owning the things that can't be taught.

I think a lot of wrestling can be taught, but those who excel at the D1 level are almost always going to be great natural athletes relative to athletes generally. In other sports you might excel as a role player or find a niche but in wrestling reaction time and an acute understanding of your center of gravity are the two most important things, and while you can improve both through repetition, wrestlers who aren't natural athletes will have a far more difficult time.

But everything's relative, even at the D1 level, and the PSU guys whose reaction times and hip awareness are off the charts, IMO, are Bo and Ed. I think Nolf's reaction time is maybe a notch behind those guys, but his hip awareness might be above theirs.

 

[Brian LB-U]

Natural ability: Ruth, Nickal, Taylor
Achiever: Brown, Molinaro, Conaway

 

[lions#1]

Not the Cael era:

Steve Sefter 2 time NCAA Wrestling All American at Heavyweight and a starting DE for JoePa Football teams back in the early 80's.

He wrestled at 230 against 350 pound guys as there was no weight limit back in the day.

 

[lions#1]

Bo edges out Ed as Bo was better at dodge ball or was it Ed that was better at dodge ball and edges out Bo......

I have a tie between Bo & Ed!

 

[RD41]

I will go with Easy Ed for most natural athletic gifts. He got, if not all of them, almost all of them. Physically as gifted as they come.

 

[dbldoofus]

Add shotgun chugging speed and call it the Downey Scale.

Add in shotgun accuracy and call it the Stoll scale.

This is too easy. Need a new topic.

 

[hawkeyecrazy]

All I know is Bo would have made it through the window at Taco Bell and Ed got hung up a bit...so one vote for noodle arms! That WAS too easy

I will take Mr Brown for getting it done. He always seemed short for the weight but my memory isn't what it once was

 

[PerryLion1997]

Two questions regarding Penn State wresters during the Cael coaching era at PSU:

1. Which PSU wrestler had the most overall natural ability or athleticism?
For example, was it: Bo, DT, Ruth, Zain, Nolf, Wright, Frank, Cenzo, others?

2. Which Penn State wrestler achieved the most (given their athleticism/natural ability)?

Natural ability, definitely Jason Nolf, the things he can do on a wrestling mat in the heat of the moment are incredible. Athleticism, Ed Ruth, absolutely dominated with athleticism. He literally powered some guys into a cradle without really that much set up, who else does that?!

 

[jrd23psu]

Natural, born-with-it, seemed to come easily? I think Ed Ruth and Bo Nickal were both like cats. They both seemed to always land on their feet no matter how you dropped them. You can'T teach that.

I think these are the two guys with the most natural athleticism. I go Bo Nickal followed by Ed Ruth.

 

[smealpsu2005]

There’s a reason his nickname is Easy Ed...it just wasn’t his demeanor, but it takes an insane amount of natural athleticism to make the toughest sport in the world look easy.

With that said...I would put Bo two and Bubba 3.

 

[manatree]

There’s a reason his nickname is Easy Ed...it just wasn’t his demeanor, but it takes an insane amount of natural athleticism to make the toughest sport in the world look easy.

With that said...I would put Bo two and Bubba 3.

I think that an insane amount of work put in by Ruth was a major factor in him making it look easy.

 

[smealpsu2005]

I think that an insane amount of work put in by Ruth was a major factor in him making it look easy.

Combination of both. I absolutely believe that he put in an incredible amount of work, but I think that over 90% of NCAA champs have if not 100%. The difference between him and them, is that not every NCAA champ makes it look that easy. He did...consistently against very good competition.

 

[jtothemfp]

Athleticism is one of those terms that holds a slightly different meaning for everyone, so debates about greatest athlete are usually all over the place. For me, it's the measure of innate ability; naturally owning the things that can't be taught.

I think a lot of wrestling can be taught, but those who excel at the D1 level are almost always going to be great natural athletes relative to athletes generally. In other sports you might excel as a role player or find a niche but in wrestling reaction time and an acute understanding of your center of gravity are the two most important things, and while you can improve both through repetition, wrestlers who aren't natural athletes will have a far more difficult time.

But everything's relative, even at the D1 level, and the PSU guys whose reaction times and hip awareness are off the charts, IMO, are Bo and Ed. I think Nolf's reaction time is maybe a notch behind those guys, but his hip awareness might be above theirs.

I'm with you, on all this. Was a little bummed that the OP included "natural ability OR athleticism" b/c I, like you, have very specific takes on pure athleticism, which I consider far different than natural wrestling ability. I like your dive into athleticism and your focus on reaction time and center of gravity. I also usually pull in something about fast-twitch muscle fibers and some form of "fluidity of movement", which lands me again on the same two wrestlers: Ed Ruth & Bo Nickal.

The other thing that's fun to do in "most athletic" discussions is to talk about other sports and how that athlete might do in different situations. When I did a semester in Australia long ago, my best Aussie mates were rugby players and we watched a ton of rugby and whatever American football was showing. I always had a blast with them, discussing which Rugby players would make the best Yankee Football balllers and vice versa. The American Linebackers always seemed to be the guys we thought would best translate to ruggers, b/c of their speed, size, tackling combination. I think you could teach both Ed Ruth & Bo Nickal how to play linebacker and they would both be incredible.

I'm intrigued by the mention of Cassar. Man, I would love to see Nickal go with him live. Obviously dudes like Taylor, Zain, Quentin, Nico are amazingly athletic specimens. And Nolf might be slightly more fluid than all of them.

But Ruth & Nickal are the sickest athletes of the PSU Cael era.

 

[Conewago]

I don't know what the hell "natural athleticism" is supposed to mean in this context. so I like jtothemfp's take.

With that said, the guy with the most outlandishly long reach was definitely Ed Ruth, and that certainly counts for something. With apologies to Bo Nickal, the memories of Ruth's diabolical far side cradle will mark him in my book as the best PSU cradler.

I see a few references to Nico Megaludis here, but no mention of his ability to wrestle seemingly half or more of the time with his head bent down on the mat. That's got to be some kind of crazy natural athleticism - flexibility - right there.

And of course hardly anyone is talking about Roman Bravo-Young! No one so far at PSU has ever done some of the things he did as a freshman, like literally jumping into and out of takedowns.

 

[WEAREPSU_LI]

I think for the guys that I've seen it has to be Ed. He was so smooth.

I think this video and the shot explains what I mean. Start the video at 6:15, if it doesn't preload that way.

 

[tikk10]

I'm with you, on all this. Was a little bummed that the OP included "natural ability OR athleticism" b/c I, like you, have very specific takes on pure athleticism, which I consider far different than natural wrestling ability. I like your dive into athleticism and your focus on reaction time and center of gravity. I also usually pull in something about fast-twitch muscle fibers and some form of "fluidity of movement", which lands me again on the same two wrestlers: Ed Ruth & Bo Nickal.

The other thing that's fun to do in "most athletic" discussions is to talk about other sports and how that athlete might do in different situations. When I did a semester in Australia long ago, my best Aussie mates were rugby players and we watched a ton of rugby and whatever American football was showing. I always had a blast with them, discussing which Rugby players would make the best Yankee Football balllers and vice versa. The American Linebackers always seemed to be the guys we thought would best translate to ruggers, b/c of their speed, size, tackling combination. I think you could teach both Ed Ruth & Bo Nickal how to play linebacker and they would both be incredible.

I'm intrigued by the mention of Cassar. Man, I would love to see Nickal go with him live. Obviously dudes like Taylor, Zain, Quentin, Nico are amazingly athletic specimens. And Nolf might be slightly more fluid than all of them.

But Ruth & Nickal are the sickest athletes of the PSU Cael era.

The second-sport mind experiment is helpful, but for some sports the gap between athletes and people who found their way into a sport can be more disparate. One way to play the same game is to imagine inventing a sport from scratch and then imagine from within your pool of candidates who would not only adapt to it the fastest but excel fastest, and then make it their own fastest. Or throw out the obvious sports and imagine, say, cricket, ultimate frisbee, volleyball. Who you picking first? For me, still Bo and Ed.

And that's all apart from competitiveness, which I think often overlaps, because the ones who excel the fastest typically get there because they're driven to compete. But competitiveness can also help the less-athletic overachieve.

As good a wrestler as DT is, I don't see him as athletic as others. I think he got there because he's more driven than pretty much everyone else in the sport. You can see the repetition and work that got him to where he is. It wasn't athleticism that enabled him to bump 24lbs to win a world championship, it was a relentless single-minded drive, focus, and work. That's not to say he's not a great athlete, again, everything's relative. But I'm still picking him second in bowling.

 

[lockhavenlion3]

The second-sport mind experiment is helpful, but for some sports the gap between athletes and people who found their way into a sport can be more disparate. One way to play the same game is to imagine inventing a sport from scratch and then imagine from within your pool of candidates who would not only adapt to it the fastest but excel fastest, and then make it their own fastest. Or throw out the obvious sports and imagine, say, cricket, ultimate frisbee, volleyball. Who you picking first? For me, still Bo and Ed.

And that's all apart from competitiveness, which I think often overlaps, because the ones who excel the fastest typically get there because they're driven to compete. But competitiveness can also help the less-athletic overachieve.

As good a wrestler as DT is, I don't see him as athletic as others. I think he got there because he's more driven than pretty much everyone else in the sport. You can see the repetition and work that got him to where he is. It wasn't athleticism that enabled him to bump 24lbs to win a world championship, it was a relentless single-minded drive, focus, and work. That's not to say he's not a great athlete, again, everything's relative. But I'm still picking him second in bowling.

tikk, don't think you give david his full due as an athlete. most assuredly his his fierce competitiveness was(is) a huge factor in his success, but he's a pretty athletic guy. we as fans tend to forget over time, as we've been blessed with greatness for some time now. ed, jason & bo set a high standard, but i can remember many times when dt would hit something, and i'm saying, how the hell did he do that? not sure dt was that much behind.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

My definition of athlete

If I had to score a TD to win on a 30yd slant on the last play of the game, who can run that route and come down with the catch?

Id rank your legends like this....

1. Bo
2. Ruth
3. DT
4. Nolf
Big gap
5. Zain

 

[nerfstate]

If we're talking a general "athleticism" score (the podcast RadioLab's new miniseries on "general" intelligence is a heavy rec, btw), I'm still going to say Cassar. I get and find no fault in choosing Ed and Bo ahead of him, especially in a loosely defined "wrestling ability," but AC has speed, strength, agility in a classic sense that makes me think he'd earn the best decathlon score of the bunch (a new way to talk about it, I suppose).